More Evidence The End Is Near

[Randy Kluth]

How is 1948 when Israel was permitted to return to their homeland proof of life beginning to be seen on the fig tree? Since the fig tree symbolizes Israel in unbelief, why is there no evidence of them beginning to grow in 1948? Surely you don't believe the parable of the fig tree was a symbol of national life for unbelieving Israel? The purpose for all of Christ's parables is so we might know the spiritual Kingdom of God has come. Israel once again attaining to statehood in 1948 is NOT proof the fig tree had once again begin to display signs of life.

The generation that shall not pass till all these things shall be fulfilled, is the "chosen generation", that began with the remnant of unbelieving Jews becoming saved as the Gospel began to be proclaimed first to the Jews and then to all the nations of the world. That is proof of life the fig tree of Old (unbelieving Israel) began to demonstrate as some Jews were born again and entered into the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Spirit of Christ within them.

I agree, at least in part, with you. The Fig Tree showed "signs of life" with the birth of the Jewish Church.

However, I think what is missed is that the Fig Tree does not have to represent Israel, though Jesus is, of course, talking about Israel. In context, the Fig Tree allegory has to do with predicting the nearness of the coming judgment of Jerusalem. As leaves produce in Spring, so the judgment of Israel can be anticipated by its immediate predecessors, consisting of earthquakes, famines, and various indications of God's displeasure with Israel.

So why the positive sign of a budding tree, to reflect the anticipation of such a negative event? I think it was because Israel was in the time of her Messiah's arrival, which should've been a time of rejoicing, new hope, and national salvation. Instead, it turned into destruction due to Israel's hardness of heart and rejection of their own Messiah. At a time when Israel should've been growing, they were cut off at the trunk, and turned into a stump.

 

[ewq1938]

The Signs of the End Jesus listed covered his own generation as well as the entire age. He was *not* trying to predict when the end is coming.

The entire OD is about the signs that precede the second coming. Nothing was about his current generation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The entire OD is about the signs that precede the second coming. Nothing was about his current generation.

Again, the signs Jesus gave was not for the purpose of *predicting when he was Coming or how soon he was coming.* By contrast, these "birth pangs" were explicitly given to be signs of an impending desolation of Jerusalem--see Luke 21.20.

 

[rwb]

I agree, at least in part, with you. The Fig Tree showed "signs of life" with the birth of the Jewish Church.

However, I think what is missed is that the Fig Tree does not have to represent Israel, though Jesus is, of course, talking about Israel. In context, the Fig Tree allegory has to do with predicting the nearness of the coming judgment of Jerusalem. As leaves produce in Spring, so the judgment of Israel can be anticipated by its immediate predecessors, consisting of earthquakes, famines, and various indications of God's displeasure with Israel.

So why the positive sign of a budding tree, to reflect the anticipation of such a negative event? I think it was because Israel was in the time of her Messiah's arrival, which should've been a time of rejoicing, new hope, and national salvation. Instead, it turned into destruction due to Israel's hardness of heart and rejection of their own Messiah. At a time when Israel should've been growing, they were cut off at the trunk, and turned into a stump.

The fig tree symbolizing Israel in unbelief is pretty commonly accepted throughout Christendom. The nation of Israel in unbelief was cursed forever and would never again have life....EXCEPT for the remnant saved according to election of grace. That remnant that was in unbelief when Christ came, became a new fig tree beginning with Jews of faith the beginning of the Israel of God. Through the first Jewish remnant of faithful saints the Gospel would go unto all the earth and believers from every nation of the earth would join with the Israel of God that would grow into an innumerable multitude in the spiritual Kingdom of God. This budding fig tree proved the Kingdom of God was not only near but also at the door for all who call on Christ's name to be saved.

I think you are partly right, the budding fig tree proves Christ was the Messiah the prophets and law foretell would come in His Kingdom. Seeing some of the Jews believe in Christ for everlasting life would be a time of rejoicing and new hope, not for national salvation, but for Israel of God, the universal Church on earth, the chosen generation that would not pass until all things shall be fulfilled. That hardened hearts were being changed by grace through faith when hearing the Gospel of Christ proclaimed in the power of the Spirit was a time for understanding what Christ meant when He said the Kingdom of God is not of this world but is within you.

 

[ewq1938]

Again, the signs Jesus gave was not for the purpose of *predicting when he was Coming or how soon he was coming.*

Christ disagrees:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The Abomination of Desolation
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
No One Knows That Day and Hour
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Freedm]

After WWII people to be doctors, engineers and scientists. Now the person of the yea award goes to an entertainer! The parallels to the fall of the Roman Empire grow. Thoughts?

Taylor Swift Named 'Person Of The Year' By Time Magazine

Time Magazine has named singer and songwriter Taylor Swift as “Person of the Year” for the 2023 year.

www.oann.com

The American empire is definitely exhibiting a lot of the same traits that befell the Romans. Arrogance, complacency and debauchery, but the end of the American empire, is not the end of the world. It's just the end of the American empire.

 

[Freedm]

All the theologians from the early church to now agreed that the parable of the fig tree was about the return of Israel to their homeland which occurred in 1948. It is that generation that the Jesus was talking about. Peal Harbor had a survivor's union just recently. The WW2 generation is still with us.

Nonsense. Jesus was talking to (and about) the generation that lived when he was on earth, not some generation 2000 years into the future. He wasn't talking to us. He was talking to his disciples. That message was for them, not for us.

 

[ewq1938]

The American empire is definitely exhibiting a lot of the same traits that befell the Romans. Arrogance, complacency and debauchery

That is a global (human) problem not just America. "human empire" is accurate.

 

[rwb]

Nonsense. Jesus was talking to (and about) the generation that lived when he was on earth, not some generation 2000 years into the future. He wasn't talking to us. He was talking to his disciples. That message was for them, not for us.

Yes, I agree His disciples were "this generation" that shall not pass until all these things shall come to pass. They are the beginning of a "chosen generation" and holy nation, the people of God.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[ewq1938]

Nonsense. Jesus was talking to (and about) the generation that lived when he was on earth, not some generation 2000 years into the future. He wasn't talking to us. He was talking to his disciples. That message was for them, not for us.

Most prophets spoke of prophecies that were far into the future. Prophecies of Jesus were spoken a LONG time before Jesus came. Jesus spoke to us, or a generation past us. None of the OD was about the first century. Jesus said one generation would see everything, including the second coming and rapture but none of those have even happened yet.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The fig tree symbolizing Israel in unbelief is pretty commonly accepted throughout Christendom. The nation of Israel in unbelief was cursed forever and would never again have life....EXCEPT for the remnant saved according to election of grace.

That is contradicted by Paul's statement that *all Israel* would be saved. I think Paul, here, is speaking of a spiritual/political salvation. Israel will be restored politically so that the national life will become spiritually oriented once again. See Rom 11.

That remnant that was in unbelief when Christ came, became a new fig tree beginning with Jews of faith the beginning of the Israel of God.

That is Replacement Theology, a redefinition of the word "Israel." Israel refers to the nation springing forth from Abraham biologically.

A remnant was saved only in certain historical moments in Israel's national life. Salvation of a remnant was *not* God's plan when He promised Abraham a "nation."

A number of times in the Prophets God described Israel under judgment as being reduced in size by enemies to become a few, or a "stump." That was meant to show failure--not the ultimate reality or fulfillment of the promise.

The promise of God, after judgment, was to restore Israel to be a full nation once again, teeming with people. This is the state of blessing God has always intended for Israel.

I think you are partly right, the budding fig tree proves Christ was the Messiah the prophets and law foretell would come in His Kingdom. Seeing some of the Jews believe in Christ for everlasting life would be a time of rejoicing and new hope, not for national salvation, but for Israel of God, the universal Church on earth, the chosen generation that would not pass until all things shall be fulfilled. That hardened hearts were being changed by grace through faith when hearing the Gospel of Christ proclaimed in the power of the Spirit was a time for understanding what Christ meant when He said the Kingdom of God is not of this world but is within you.

I'm glad we agree that the "blossoming" of the Fig Tree represented Israel in the time of Messiah's earthly ministry. That was the founding of the Jewish Church, which ultimately led to what I think are many "Fig Trees," meaning many other nations committed to serving God. Unfortunately, just as the nation Israel failed, so the many Christian nations have failed as well, leaving many "stumps."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Christ disagrees:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

I can see why you think as you do, but I continue to make the claim. Jesus was not giving advance signs to predict his Coming or the nearness of his Coming. He was not giving a timing scheme to predict when he would come, or even provide the "birth pain" signs to indicate that.

As I said, the "birth pang" signs had to do with anticipating the coming of a Roman Army to destroy Jerusalem. The disciples were warned to flee when they saw those signs, in particular the sign of the Abomination of Desolation, which was news of the coming of the Roman Army itself.

All of those signs were indictments upon Jesus' own generation, the Jews who were rejecting their own Messiah and persecuting his followers. That is explicitly said. They were not the same sign that Jesus referred to with respect to his own Coming.

The sign of his Coming was not given to indicate when he would come, or to predict that event. On the contrary, it was given to warn Jesus' followers not to follow false earthly cults claiming to be bringing in the Kingdom of God.

The sign of Jesus' Coming was the Coming itself, coming down from heaven, as opposed to some earthly movement claiming to change the world. The world would first see false prophets and false Christs, until Christ comes in judgment to alter the course of history.

And Paul adds that Antichrist must come first, which is a sign for believers to anticipate Christ's soon Coming. By that time Christians will no longer be subject to the temptation to predict when he will come--that time will have arrived.

 

[ewq1938]

I can see why you think as you do, but I continue to make the claim. Jesus was not giving advance signs to predict his Coming or the nearness of his Coming. He was not giving a timing scheme to predict when he would come, or even provide the "birth pain" signs to indicate that.

Yet that is EXACTLY what he did. He gave many signs that would happen before the Coming and then described the Coming. That is what the OD is about. When trees start to blossom, Summer is nigh and the blooming are the signs and Summer is the Coming.

 

[dev553344]

After WWII people to be doctors, engineers and scientists. Now the person of the yea award goes to an entertainer! The parallels to the fall of the Roman Empire grow. Thoughts?

Taylor Swift Named 'Person Of The Year' By Time Magazine

Time Magazine has named singer and songwriter Taylor Swift as “Person of the Year” for the 2023 year.

www.oann.com

It's just the media building themselves up. I don't think it is abnormal behavior from the media. They already pretty strange.

 

[Debp]

Also, because of identity theft and so much technology and companies able to be hacked, I think that is leading up to the Mark of the Beast.

 

[rwb]

That is contradicted by Paul's statement that *all Israel* would be saved. I think Paul, here, is speaking of a spiritual/political salvation. Israel will be restored politically so that the national life will become spiritually oriented once again. See Rom 11.

How can Paul be speaking of an ethnic people when saying all Israel shall be saved, since they are only saved through Gentiles grafted in together with them? That makes "all Israel" all people of faith, not the ethnic nation called Israel. Paul is speaking of the Israel of God that is both Jew & Gentiles of faith. See Gal 6:16

 

[Randy Kluth]

How can Paul be speaking of an ethnic people when saying all Israel shall be saved, since they are only saved through Gentiles grafted in together with them? That makes "all Israel" all people of faith, not the ethnic nation called Israel. Paul is speaking of the Israel of God that is both Jew & Gentiles of faith. See Gal 6:16

I speak to this in the thread HERE. I wouldn't, of course, deny that Gentiles have joined the Jewish Church as the People of God universal. However, that shouldn't call for a change in word meanings. The word "Israel" still means the nation that lived in the land of Canaan, or Palestine, if you will.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yet that is EXACTLY what he did. He gave many signs that would happen before the Coming and then described the Coming. That is what the OD is about. When trees start to blossom, Summer is nigh and the blooming are the signs and Summer is the Coming.

I believe Jesus warned his followers not to be distracted by false reports of his Coming. He told his Disciples not to get overly worked up over "times and seasons," which I believe would include prophetic maps and timing schemes, etc.

Instead, our focus is to be upon today, upon our ministry today, and not idle speculations about future prophetic fulfillment if they are going to distract us from more practical things. So no, Jesus did not give the "birth pang" signs to predict his imminent Coming. In fact, these signs all took place in Jesus' generation, and he did *not* Come Again!

As I said, the "birth pang" signs were designed to provide current believers with recognition that Jerusalem was soon to be destroyed by the Roman Army, ie the Abomination of Desolation. This would lead to a long Jewish exile, a period of "punishment," as we are told.

Clearly, Jesus was showing that far from his 2nd Coming being imminent, there would be this long age of Jewish exile, during which his Gospel would be preached to all nations. Only after these things would the end come.

 

[rwb]

I speak to this in the thread HERE. I wouldn't, of course, deny that Gentiles have joined the Jewish Church as the People of God universal. However, that shouldn't call for a change in word meanings. The word "Israel" still means the nation that lived in the land of Canaan, or Palestine, if you will.

According to you not according to the Apostle Paul who clearly says all people of faith, whether they be Jew or Gentile are the Israel of God. Not an ethnic people, but the people of God.

 

[ewq1938]

I believe Jesus warned his followers not to be distracted by false reports of his Coming.

Probably related to, "He gave many signs that would happen before the Coming"