More Evidence The End Is Near

[Freedm]

That is a global (human) problem not just America. "human empire" is accurate.

Well, I don't think arrogance really applies to weaker nations, because they know they're weak. When arrogance sets in, you believe you're so strong that you stop trying, and you don't even notice when your adversaries surpass you.

 

[Freedm]

Most prophets spoke of prophecies that were far into the future. Prophecies of Jesus were spoken a LONG time before Jesus came. Jesus spoke to us, or a generation past us. None of the OD was about the first century. Jesus said one generation would see everything, including the second coming and rapture but none of those have even happened yet.

Some prophets did speak of events far into the future, such as when Daniel was told "Seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future" (Daniel 8:26) but John the Revelator was told the opposite; "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near" (Revelation 22:10). Daniel and John were given visions of the same event, the time of the end. For Daniel it was still 400 years away, but for John it was a mere 15 to 20 years. We know it was near for John because the very first line in Revelation tells us that the book is about events "that must soon take place" (Revelation 1:1).

If Daniel's vision was for "the distant future", and you think even his vision is for our future, then why would John's vision not also be about the distant future? If Daniel's vision was 2,400 years ago and John's was 2000 years ago, and they're both about our future, then why is one of them told that his vision is about "the distant future" and the other is told that "the time is near"? Is 2000 years much sooner than 2,400? Of course not, both of those numbers are huge. Given what John was told, especially in contrast to what Daniel was told, it makes absolutely no sense, to say that John's vision is still in our future.

 

[Peterlag]

After WWII people to be doctors, engineers and scientists. Now the person of the yea award goes to an entertainer! The parallels to the fall of the Roman Empire grow. Thoughts?

Taylor Swift Named 'Person Of The Year' By Time Magazine

Time Magazine has named singer and songwriter Taylor Swift as “Person of the Year” for the 2023 year.

www.oann.com

I don't know what to make of this. Somewhere it says no one will know the time. Not even the son, but only the Father. And then there's the following that we will know something.


1 Thessalonians 5:2,4
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[ewq1938]

Some prophets did speak of events far into the future, such as when Daniel was told "Seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future" (Daniel 8:26) but John the Revelator was told the opposite; "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near" (Revelation 22:10).

Which could be the time to read and understand the words, not that the events would happen soon. Some may have but the majority of the prophecies have not yet happened. Unless you know of someone who can make fire come out of heaven or two dead people that the world saw resurrect from the dead and rise up into heaven, plus many more unique and historic events that no one recorded as happening.

Daniel and John were given visions of the same event, the time of the end. For Daniel it was still 400 years away, but for John it was a mere 15 to 20 years. We know it was near for John because the very first line in Revelation tells us that the book is about events "that must soon take place" (Revelation 1:1).

Some events took place soon, most didn't.

Is 2000 years much sooner than 2,400? Of course not, both of those numbers are huge.

To humans yes but that's a couple days to God.

In Hebrews it is written that the last days were happening back then. Well, that's a long time ago and a lot of last days. People didn't know when things would happen or end so they were hopeful it was soon. Even Paul wrote as if he would live to see the second coming and rapture.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't know what to make of this. Somewhere it says no one will know the time. Not even the son, but only the Father. And then there's the following that we will know something.


1 Thessalonians 5:2,4
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

I think 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4 just means we know it is coming and ought to be prepared despite not knowing the exact time.

My point of the OP is the signs of the end times, at least as far as a collapse of American society. Valuing entertainers above productive contributors is the path the Roman Empire took before it collapsed. It shows a moral collapse has already happened.

 

[rwb]

I think 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4 just means we know it is coming and ought to be prepared despite not knowing the exact time.

My point of the OP is the signs of the end times, at least as far as a collapse of American society. Valuing entertainers above productive contributors is the path the Roman Empire took before it collapsed. It shows a moral collapse has already happened.

I don't disagree with you, but the problem is that mankind morally collapsed from the beginning. I too believe things will become worse and worse especially for those who profess faith in Christ, as the day of His return approaches. And that we should indeed keep our focus on things above and not get caught up in the evil that happens in this world all around us. And history does indeed have a way of repeating itself for all who fail to learn by it. I also believe that all that has come to pass and shall come to pass is ordained by God, and shall serve the purpose for good to those who love Him.

 

[Peterlag]

I think 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4 just means we know it is coming and ought to be prepared despite not knowing the exact time.

My point of the OP is the signs of the end times, at least as far as a collapse of American society. Valuing entertainers above productive contributors is the path the Roman Empire took before it collapsed. It shows a moral collapse has already happened.

I have heard about many signs over the years even many in the first century believed the time would happen before they died. What you mention very well might be another real sign. My point is there are probably many and how far they are spaced apart nobody knows. Years ago my cousin handed me a 5 page paper on a group that had a leader who figured it all out and told his people he had a date. I read less than the first page and saw it was based on unsound doctrine. The folks in this religious group gave their houses away, cleared out their bank accounts and gave the money to people on the street. They told their boss what he could do and then sat together on the floor of the church when that day came waiting for the hour. I was a young guy at this time so this was many years ago.

 

[Randy Kluth]

According to you not according to the Apostle Paul who clearly says all people of faith, whether they be Jew or Gentile are the Israel of God. Not an ethnic people, but the people of God.

I do *not* see the Apostle Paul saying that the International Church is "Israel." We would disagree on that. In saying that I'm not trying to be "disagreeable"--just stating my opinion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Probably related to, "He gave many signs that would happen before the Coming"

No, my view is that the "birth pang" signs were specifically given to presage the coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD by the Romans. The 2nd Coming was stated by Jesus to be something believers were to be wary of, by avoiding false claims to the same.

Paul also ran into this, as mentioned in 2 Thes 2. Some Christians were claiming to be a more imminent form of Christ's Kingdom appearing on earth. Paul said to reject that, and anticipate falsehoods of this nature until the 2nd Coming actually takes place.

We can agree to disagree agreeably, if you wish?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I have heard about many signs over the years even many in the first century believed the time would happen before they died. What you mention very well might be another real sign. My point is there are probably many and how far they are spaced apart nobody knows. Years ago my cousin handed me a 5 page paper on a group that had a leader who figured it all out and told his people he had a date. I read less than the first page and saw it was based on unsound doctrine. The folks in this religious group gave their houses away, cleared out their bank accounts and gave the money to people on the street. They told their boss what he could do and then sat together on the floor of the church when that day came waiting for the hour. I was a young guy at this time so this was many years ago.

I sympathize. I spent a good amount of time in the late 70s writing Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapels fame, disagreeing with his constant claim that Christ could come at any moment, and would precede the reign of Antichrist. He basically ignored me up until the point he suggested I not come to his church--I lived in Santa Ana, CA at the time--not far from his church.

I moved out of state not long after this, and later learned that he began to predict Christ's Return sometime in the early 1980s--something like that. He apparently encouraged people to let go of their material things in preparation for that event. Obviously, it was bad guidance.

Some of this seems supported by the "birth pains" signs that Jesus said would precede his Coming. But he was talking primarily about the judgment to befall his own generation in 70 AD. All of those signs took place at that time.

What are signs that we are in the last generation? It has nothing to do with the Olivet Discourse or with the "birth pain" signs. Rather, it has to do with the rise of Antichrist, in accord with Dan 7. Paul explicitly said Antichrist's rise must precede Christ's return for his Church. Christ would only come to defeat the Antichrist, and not before.

We prepare for Christ's Coming today by living righteously, and not by guessing what day or year he will come. If we live in righteousness, we are ready--period! The prophecy of Antichrist was given to the Church throughout history to notify them that before Christ returns we will have to confront various antichrists, and in the end, the Antichrist himself.

This warning is given to encourage us to avoid deceptions that make us unready. Deceptions can lead us to lead a profligate life, a carnal or corrupt life. By avoiding deceptions and choosing to live a spiritual life we are ready. And this is what we are encouraged to do.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't disagree with you, but the problem is that mankind morally collapsed from the beginning.

It’s not a problem. If you study the human condition, cycles repeat. There is more than one end. The American Empire is nearing its end.

 

[rwb]

I do *not* see the Apostle Paul saying that the International Church is "Israel." We would disagree on that. In saying that I'm not trying to be "disagreeable"--just stating my opinion.

I wouldn't say the international Church is Israel either. Nor does Paul! Because Paul clearly tells us the international Church as it is on this earth is not an ethnic people, but ALL people of faith, believers called "Israel of God." That is not my opinion, it is the Words of Scripture through the Apostle Paul. Though some from the nation of Israel are part of the Israel of God, they are not exclusively the Israel of God, belonging to ethnic Israel is not a get in free card to the Israel of God.

 

[Ziggy]

If America dies so goes Freedom.
It's the only country based on God's unalienable right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Although I do believe we gave up a lot of that on 911 when they instituted the Patriot Act.
That gave them unfettered power to surveil every American citizen, it lessened the 4th amendement regarding search and siezure.
Opened the door for all kinds of limits on speech, religion, and where has the pursuit of happiness gone?
And what is happiness to some may be downright sorrowful to others.

Hugs

 

[Randy Kluth]

I wouldn't say the international Church is Israel either. Nor does Paul! Because Paul clearly tells us the international Church as it is on this earth is not an ethnic people, but ALL people of faith, believers called "Israel of God." That is not my opinion, it is the Words of Scripture through the Apostle Paul. Though some from the nation of Israel are part of the Israel of God, they are not exclusively the Israel of God, belonging to ethnic Israel is not a get in free card to the Israel of God.

Now I'm confused. You seem to be saying 2 contradictory things.
1) I wouldn't say the international Church is Israel.
2) All people of faith, believers called "Israel of God."

Are you trying to distinguish between the "International Church" and "all people of faith?" We all know that not all in the Church are true believers, and that not all descended from Israel, ie the Jews, are believing Jews.

And what are you saying the Apostle Paul is declaring as fact? Are you saying that Paul referred to all peoples, from all nations, are "Israel?" If so, I can't agree with that.

 

[Keraz]

Are you saying that Paul referred to all peoples, from all nations, are "Israel?

Paul said: This promise is to you and your children, to all who are far away, to everyone whom the Lord may call. Acts 2:39

Ancient Israel did not do as the Lord had commanded them. They worshipped idols and rebelled against His Laws. Ezekiel 12:1 So the Lord sent them into exile – Ezekiel 12:3, for a decreed time period; Ezekiel 4:4-6 Before this happened, the Israelites had split into two kingdoms; then the House of Israel, was taken into exile by Assyria, and the House of Judah, deported by Babylon. Deuteronomy 4:27

What happened to them and the land?
Ezekiel 6:8-14 Among the nations, there will be those of you who have survived the sword and are scattered in foreign lands. They will remember Me while in exile and they will loath themselves for the evil they have done.
Remember the Lord, that is: become Christians.

You will know that My threats were not in vain. Justice will be done. Nahum 1:2-3
Cry in pain, because of your wickedness, people of Israel. You will die by sword, famine and plague. Black Death, civil wars, world wars, etc.
So, I will spend My wrath upon them. Your Land will become a desolation.
Travellers in the 1800’s were amazed at the awful conditions in the Middle East of desertification, still today; with water shortages and continuing strife.

In Ezekiel chapter 11, after the House of Israel had been exiled, Ezekiel is prophesying to the leaders of Judah. In verses 1 to 13, he says that Judah too, will be conquered. Then in verse 15, he mentions their brothers and kinsmen, [the House of Israel, then in Northern Assyria] to whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem say: They are separated far from the Lord, the land has been made over to us [Jews] to possess.



Ezekiel 11:16-44 Say therefore, When I dispersed them over the earth, I became their sanctuary in the countries where they have gone. I shall gather you from among the nations and I shall give the Land of Israel to you. Judah has come back, but in apostasy.

They will abolish all idols and vile practices. Not done yet.
I will give them a new heart and a new spirit. Wait for it!
They will keep My laws and I will be their God. Great will be the Day!
Go you Israelites and serve your idols! But in days to come I will punish you.
On My holy mountain in the Land, the whole people of Israel will serve Me.

I will accept you, when I have brought you out of all the places where you were sent.
I will bring you into the Land which I promised to the forefathers. Romans 9:24-26

You will remember your past and will hate yourselves for it.
You will know that I am the Lord when I deal with you, not as you really deserve, but as the honour of My holy Name demands.

But now, as we approach the end times, we see a Jewish restoration, but in unbelief. Zechariah 12:7 The Lord will free Judah first, for their greater glory. The State of Israel, now in a part of the holy Land, but they still reject their Messiah and now face another Judgement; the third swing of the Sword. Ezekiel 21:1-14

The forthcoming Day of the Lord’s wrath is also the judgement of Judah, as in:
Amos 2:4-5, Jer. 13:19, Zeph. 1:4-6, Obadiah 1:12-16, Isaiah 4:3-4, Matthew 21:41-43

Ezekiel 20:46-47 O man, turn toward the South, prophesy to the desert of the Negev. The Lord God says: I am about to kindle a fire in you. Its fiery flame will not be put out; everyone to the North will be scorched by it. Zephaniah 1:14-18

The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, Revelation 6:12-17
Isaiah 63:4 I resolved on a Day of vengeance, the year for redeeming My own has come.
I stamped on peoples in My anger and their blood poured out on the ground. Psalms 110

This event will depopulate most of the Middle East, leaving the way for His people; Israel: the descendants of Jacob, plus those grafted in, mostly from the nominally Christian nations, still scattered around the world, to gather in the ‘wilderness’:

Ezekiel 20:34-38 By My strong arm and outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you were dispersed.
I shall confront you and bring you to judgement. Those who rebel will remain in the desert.

Who are the Israelites? Certainly, some must be ethnic descendants of the Patriarchs’, as in:-
Amos 9:8-9 I shall not totally destroy Jacobs posterity. I will shake Israel among the nations and not one pebble will fall to the ground.

Isaiah 14:1 The Lord will again show compassion for Jacob [the 12 tribes of Israel] and will once again make Israel His choice. He will resettle them on their native soil and aliens will join them.

Peoples from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9

All faithful Christians have the wonderful promises of the New Testament:-
Acts 2:39 This promise is to you and your children, to all who are far away, to everyone whom the Lord may call.

Luke 12:32-40 Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has chosen to give you the Kingdom. Sell your possessions, give to charity. Provide for yourselves treasure [rewards] in Heaven.
Be ready for action. Be like a servant, ready to let your Master in as soon as He knocks.

Happy are those servants whom the Master finds awake when He comes. Truly, I tell you, He will seat you at the table and wait on you.
If it is midnight or before dawn and you are still awake, then great will be your reward.
Remember, if the householder had known when a thief would come, he would have stopped him.

So, be ready for the Son of Man will come when you least expect Him.

This refers to the Lord’s Day of fiery wrath, not His Return, when He will be expected, as the armies of the Anti-Christ attack Jerusalem. Revelation 19:19
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses condensed.

 

[rwb]

Now I'm confused. You seem to be saying 2 contradictory things.
1) I wouldn't say the international Church is Israel.
2) All people of faith, believers called "Israel of God."

Are you trying to distinguish between the "International Church" and "all people of faith?" We all know that not all in the Church are true believers, and that not all descended from Israel, ie the Jews, are believing Jews.

And what are you saying the Apostle Paul is declaring as fact? Are you saying that Paul referred to all peoples, from all nations, are "Israel?" If so, I can't agree with that.

Paul doesn't contradict himself. He proves that Israel in unbelief has never belonged to Israel of God. The only Jews belonging to Israel of God belong through faith not ethnicity. Not only are Jews of faith called Israel of God, but Gentiles of faith grafted together with them also belong to Israel of God. No one should desire to be of ethnic Israel in unbelief, but every human should desire to belong to "the Israel of God." They are not the ethnic nation you seem to be consumed with, they are all people of faith. While you see only one Israel, the Apostle Paul shows us there are two. The one is born from above, the over remains in unbelief.

 

[Peterlag]

I sympathize. I spent a good amount of time in the late 70s writing Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapels fame, disagreeing with his constant claim that Christ could come at any moment, and would precede the reign of Antichrist. He basically ignored me up until the point he suggested I not come to his church--I lived in Santa Ana, CA at the time--not far from his church.

I moved out of state not long after this, and later learned that he began to predict Christ's Return sometime in the early 1980s--something like that. He apparently encouraged people to let go of their material things in preparation for that event. Obviously, it was bad guidance.

Some of this seems supported by the "birth pains" signs that Jesus said would precede his Coming. But he was talking primarily about the judgment to befall his own generation in 70 AD. All of those signs took place at that time.

What are signs that we are in the last generation? It has nothing to do with the Olivet Discourse or with the "birth pain" signs. Rather, it has to do with the rise of Antichrist, in accord with Dan 7. Paul explicitly said Antichrist's rise must precede Christ's return for his Church. Christ would only come to defeat the Antichrist, and not before.

We prepare for Christ's Coming today by living righteously, and not by guessing what day or year he will come. If we live in righteousness, we are ready--period! The prophecy of Antichrist was given to the Church throughout history to notify them that before Christ returns we will have to confront various antichrists, and in the end, the Antichrist himself.

This warning is given to encourage us to avoid deceptions that make us unready. Deceptions can lead us to lead a profligate life, a carnal or corrupt life. By avoiding deceptions and choosing to live a spiritual life we are ready. And this is what we are encouraged to do.

I'm an expert in understanding how to get in the spirit of Christ. But I don't know much about this second coming and I will tell you why. Most people are in Daniel and Revelation talking about a second coming and there may be a couple of those. One for the saints and another for Israel. And there may be a thousand years in between the two. And all kinds of stuff could be happening in between that time period. Most Christians if not just about all of them confuse those two different comings and preach all kinds of crazy ideas.

 

[Freedm]

Some events took place soon, most didn't.

That makes no sense. If the book is about event that "must soon take place", then that concerns all the events in the book. Saying that "some events took place, and some didn't" simply means that as far as you know, some events didn't. You should consider that you simply didn't recognize those events, or have misunderstood the descriptions of those events.

 

[Freedm]

To humans yes but that's a couple days to God.

That's a cop out, and is often used to explain away things that are contradictory to presumptions.

The fact is, that the vision was given to a human, and he wrote it down for other humans to read. This was not written for God to read. It was written for humans to read. So to say that "soon" means several thousand years later, is simply absurd. That's not soon by anybody's definition.

In other words, God is not going to tell John that these visions concern events in the near future, if they are not in John's near future. Just as He was would not tell Daniel that his vision concerned the distant future, if it was not in Daniel's distant future.

 

[rwb]

That's a cop out, and is often used to explain away things that are contradictory to presumptions.

The fact is, that the vision was given to a human, and he wrote it down for other humans to read. This was not written for God to read. It was written for humans to read. So to say that "soon" means several thousand years later, is simply absurd. That's not soon by anybody's definition.

In other words, God is not going to tell John that these visions concern events in the near future, if they are not in John's near future. Just as He was would not tell Daniel that his vision concerned the distant future, if it was not in Daniel's distant future.

I think at least part of our misunderstanding comes because some don't understand that what was soon, near, even at the doors when Christ spoke these words was not Him coming again at the end of this age. Rather Christ was telling His disciples throughout this Gospel age that the Kingdom of God has come with power through His Spirit and the time now, or from the first century AD to the last is that the Kingdom of God is not a physical Kingdom that can be seen with physical sight, and is not of this world but that it is a spiritual Kingdom that is within whosoever is of faith in Christ.

When we read the Olivet Discourse we must understand that what is spoken then applies to all of Christ's disciples to the end of days.