That first generation was not responsible for all sin. That first generation was responsible for the sin of adultery. Specifically the adultery of pagan Israel against her husband, which is why she is the harlot of Revelation, and the subject of the entire chapter of Ezekiel 16. She rejected God, and his messengers, and went her own way, though she was His wife. That is why she suffered wrath, and that is why she was replaced by a new bride, the new Jerusalem, members of the new covenant, for the old Jerusalem was divorced and destroyed.
More Evidence The End Is Near
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
On the contrary. You think I started out as a preterist? Far from it. I was brought up in a Pentecostal church, being taught the book of Hal Lindsey every day of the week. I believed that Israel would come to Christ during the great tribulation, and that we would all be raptured up either before, during or after the tribulation. I was frightened to death by the left behind movies, thinking all the plagues written would literally play out before my eyes. I believed that all of Revelation was a prophecy for us, and that we as Christians were special because we had the future in our pockets, and it was all to be fulfilled during our lifetime. My parents believed it so strongly, they foolishly failed to save for retirement, saying "We'll be raptured up to heaven long before that happens!". How many other Christians did the same?
That's where I began, but it was only because so many things didn't fit that I started to consider other possibilities. I'm an analyst by trade, and I'm very fond of figuring things out, and thinking outside the box. That's why it frustrated me so that I couldn't fit all the puzzle pieces together, especially regarding the rapture and the Revelation, but my family always used the excuses "His mind is not like our mind!" and "It's not a salvation issue!" and "We'll know when we get to heaven!". Such cop outs never sat well with me. I believed the book was for us to understand, not merrily wave away our own confusions as though it was some righteous act, to believe without understanding. What nonsense.
Eventually I moved into A-millenialism, which allowed me to fit a lot more puzzle pieces together, and it was a relief. I'd finally made some progress in understanding, but there was still more. It was only after reading several well written, easy to understand, and relatively short books about seeing Revelation in the light of preterism that it really all came together for me. It made so much sense, and now I wonder why so many Christians are so resistant to it. If you want the pieces to fit together, you have to open your mind and look at things from a different perspective. It's really mind blowing when you finally see it. I strongly recommend.
I could say the same thing to you! It appears the Preterit reads all of Scripture through their preconceived Preterist doctrine.
I too looked for about a minute at the doctrine you espouse. It didn't take me any longer to realize how comfortable the Preterit is to spiritualize all that does not fit your preconceived doctrine. I haven't explained away "this generation" at all. I've shown the only way it can be logically understood so we don't have to claim literal fulfillment of all that is written except when it doesn't fit our preconceived doctrine. Which by the way introduces contradiction into the Scriptures. I don't know how you can say Matthew makes sense to you since you embraced Preterism since your doctrine only fits by denying the physical return of Christ. That should be the most embarrassing of all for the Preterit to embrace! You're more consumed with what became of an apostate people than you are with the physical coming again of Christ in the same manner He was seen departing this world to heaven.
Who was Christ speaking to here? Was it not those apostate Jews living in the first century AD charged with "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth"? The same as Babylon the great whore?
Matthew 23:34-35 (KJV) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Revelation 17:6 (KJV) And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
The difference between this generation living in the first century AD responsible for all the blood shed upon the earth and "this generation" Christ was speaking to, is these are part of the same generation of Jews, but from the same generation are of their father the devil. Where Christ was speaking to Jews of faith calling them and all who come after them of faith, this generation, meaning the chosen generation sent out with the Gospel of Christ that the Kingdom of God might be complete.
This is the problem with Preterism! It uses the Word of God to prove their doctrine, rather than allowing the Word of God to prove what they assume. That's why the Preterit must spiritualize what cannot be proven as having been literally fulfilled in 70 AD.
I don't see the connection. I actually used the same example of the woman drunk with the blood of the saints to prove that Revelation is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, and here you are trying to use the same evidence to show that it is not. I don't get the connection though. How does this evidence support your position?
You say "Christ was speaking to Jews of faith calling them and all who come after them of faith, this generation" but that's absurd. Jesus never said "all who come after you". He was speaking directly to that generation. How can you tell me that Jesus meant something other than what he said? You're literally putting words in his mouth.
That isn't true with Preterism. Preterits view much and even most of the Olivet Discourse as that which physically came to pass against an apostate nation in 70 AD. But then when it comes to the signs of Christ and His coming again, you cannot make it literally fit. So rather than admit it doesn't fit with a literal interpretation the Preterit will jump through hoops trying to prove Christ did return in 70 AD, but the language regarding the signs that accompany and His coming you've convinced yourselves that Christ did come in the clouds of heaven, but His coming then was spiritual and not literal. You ignore the fact that this causes contradiction of what occurred after Pentecost when Christ visibly ascended up to heaven in the clouds, and the two men in white apparel telling the disciples they would see Christ return in the same manner in which they witnessed Him ascend up. Christ will return, as He promised He would when the last trumpet sounds. But Preterits would have us believe He has already returned in 70 AD, even though they must admit that no one witnessed His return. And that is contrary to these few verses here:
Ac 1:9 And when he had spoken these things while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Mark 16:19 (KJV) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Luke 24:50-51 (KJV) And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Even Jesus' own language around his return was clearly symbolic. I believe I posted evidence of that earlier today, but I can post it again if you didn't see it.
Yes, I'm aware of this verse and the difficulty it presents. I would never ignore any scripture. There are two possibilities here.
1. The return of Jesus as described by the angels here is still future, and so the return Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 was not the same as this return. His first return was symbolic, in the sense that it was specifically a coming in judgment upon Jerusalem, but perhaps sometime in our future Jesus will still physically walk the earth again.
2. His return in 70 AD did happen as described here, but it was not recorded in any of our history books.
I'm not sure, but regardless of this, I can not ignore the very clear evidence that the book of Revelation is about the judgment upon Jerusalem, the harlot, and the ushering in of Christendom, and we know this all took place approximately 2000 years ago. That much is certain.
The coming with clouds imagery is clearly symbolic, as clouds represent power and glory. However, Josephus the historian tells us that a number great signs were witnessed, and several were actually seen in the skies above Jerusalem right before the city was destroyed. Perhaps Matthew 24:30 was speaking of one of these signs.
The Sword Above Jerusalem
Thus it was that the wretched people were deluded at that time by charlatans and pretended messengers of the deity; while they neither heeded nor believed in the manifest portents that foretold the coming desolation, but, as if thunderstruck and bereft of eyes and mind, disregarded the plain warnings of God. So it was when a star, resembling a sword, stood over the city, and a comet which continued for a year." (Wars 6.5.3)
Chariots in the Sky
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. (Wars 6.5.3)
Yes, I agree this is true. The problem for the Preterit is that they have determined the return of Christ was not literally fulfilled but spiritually fulfilled while ignoring that Christ says He shall come again only "the second time." It's clear that Christ has not yet appeared the second time because when He comes the second time it will be without sin unto salvation. But the Preterit can't even explain why, if Christ came again in 70 AD, His elect were not gathered from throughout heaven and earth?
Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Actually, his elect were gathered throughout heaven and earth. I know most Christians think of this as a rapture, but I believe it's describing the beginnings of Christendom. His elect were literally gathered into the kingdom of Israel / kingdom of God / kingdom of heaven at that time.
Here's something the futurists can't explain: Why, if Jesus died for our sins 2000 years ago, would we not yet have eternal life? And why would we not yet be married to Christ? And why would he not yet be reigning? What is He waiting for? And perhaps most importantly, how can you say that death has not yet been defeated, if he literally rose from the dead? Was all that just a preview? Why would he tease us like that and then have us waiting anxiously for the next 2000 years? Was it all just to say "Look what I can do!"? Because if none of those things have happened yet, then what has He done for us?
There is no evidence that the living elect of God were gathered together in 70 AD. The only elect that ascended to heaven with Christ after His resurrection were those who had died waiting for Christ to come. They are those saints who as spiritual body ascended to heaven with Christ. Because before the spirit of Christ ascended to heaven, He first went into the abode of the dead; the graves to rescue those saints who had died in faith. They went to heaven with Christ a spiritual body of believers where they appeared in the holy city, new Jerusalem, and were seen by the whole hosts (many) there.
Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Believers, since the first advent of Christ, now enter the spiritual Kingdom of God through His Spirit within us, because that's where Christ says His Kingdom can be found. (Lu 17:21) When believers physically die, since Christ has atoned for sin and defeated death for all who believe in Him, we ascend a spiritual body of believers to heaven when our body dies. But that is not how believers shall remain through eternity. Our body too shall be caught up (raptured) and changed, and made alive through our spirit that returns with Christ (1Th 4:14). On that day believers will once again be complete living soul with body of flesh + spirit a living immortal & incorruptible soul that shall never sin nor die again.
I can't help but notice that you offer no proof from Scripture for the doctrine you assume is biblical???
Keraz
Well-Known Member
- Jun 20, 2018
- 5,213
- 936
- 113
- 82
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- New Zealand
God is waiting for His elect people to prove their trust and faith in Him thru a forthcoming hard time of trials and testing. 1 Peter 4:12.
If you want to avoid any discipline and corrections, then you are not a legitimate child of God. Hebrew 12:7-8
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Persecution is only symbolic? People symbolically die for their beliefs? People were only symbolically burned at the stake? The Reformation was only symbolic? The 2 WW's were only symbolic and did not happen in reality? It is easy to claim everything is symbolic, no?
Behold
Well-Known Member
After WWII people to be doctors, engineers and scientists. Now the person of the yea award goes to an entertainer! The parallels to the fall of the Roman Empire grow. Thoughts?
Taylor Swift Named 'Person Of The Year' By Time Magazine
Time Magazine has named singer and songwriter Taylor Swift as “Person of the Year” for the 2023 year.www.oann.com
She's just a very ambitious Young woman, who made the cover of a worldly Magazine that is popular in the world.
The world loves its owned.
Yet, T.Swift claims to be a "Christian".... but, ive not read anything about her conversion...so, the jury is out.... as far as im concerned, till then.
She does not use her gift of music to celebrate Jesus, so, thats a sign.
See, people who know Jesus and Love Jesus, talk about Jesus, and sing about Jesus.
People who dont know Jesus and dont love Jesus, talk about water baptism, commandment keeping, self effort, and they usually post Threads that attack the Bible or ignorant comments about "God could have stopped all the evil"...
If you love Jesus and you write songs, you'll write songs about your Love for Jesus and about Jesus's love, and God's love..
See any HYMNAL for the update....
And she's media and marketing "wise"..., and understands that the population of the world is broken up into "markets" by people who are selling you something, so, she's careful not to offend the "Gay market", which is also, telling you something about her faith., or her lack of understanding regarding Real Christianity.
Last edited:
It looks like you didn't read what I said. I believe the gathering together refers not to a rapture, but to the beginning of Christendom. God's people were gathered into the kingdom, which is Christendom. Do you not believe that Christendom began in the 1st century AD? Do you not believe that the new covenant replaced the old in 70 AD?
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 6,032
- 1,230
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
The new covenant replaced the old at the cross.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Psalm chapter 19 to document the Zodiac. The 12 constellations.
Majority of Christian people missed the constellation Taurus. Which is Orion.
The coming prince consist of 78 stars. The figure is the mighty hunter.
Shouldn't be any doubt who this is !!.
BETELGEUZ is the brightest star of this constellation. It means, the coming branch.
Or the foot that crushes.
Jesus is coming 7th trump to crush the enemy.
BELLATRIX which means swiftly coming. Is another star. Were talking about Jesus.
Isaiah Thomas 42:13. The Lord shall go forth as mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war:
This constellation was seen in December, 2023 , last month. A asteroid went right past BETELGEUZ. Get the picture.
Apparently, many people missed the boat. The Zodiac does count !!.
Messiah is coming. Watchman need to pay attention.
Majority of Christian people missed the constellation Taurus. Which is Orion.
The coming prince consist of 78 stars. The figure is the mighty hunter.
Shouldn't be any doubt who this is !!.
BETELGEUZ is the brightest star of this constellation. It means, the coming branch.
Or the foot that crushes.
Jesus is coming 7th trump to crush the enemy.
BELLATRIX which means swiftly coming. Is another star. Were talking about Jesus.
Isaiah Thomas 42:13. The Lord shall go forth as mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war:
This constellation was seen in December, 2023 , last month. A asteroid went right past BETELGEUZ. Get the picture.
Apparently, many people missed the boat. The Zodiac does count !!.
Messiah is coming. Watchman need to pay attention.
Similar threads
