More Evidence The End Is Near

[rwb]

This is a case in point. I don't believe Paul was teaching that unfaithful Jews were never Jews. By referring to "true Jews" or to "true Israel" Paul was not redefining "Israel" as not applicable to unfaithful Jews. Rather, he was stating that some Jews are not "true," or "faithful," to their calling. It is a characterization--not a re-definition.

Rom 2.29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Paul is not here re-defining a "Jew" as exclusive of unbelieving Jews, which would be essentially a re-definition of what a "Jew" is. Rather, he is describing what a faithful Jew should be, suggesting that those who are unfaithful to God's standards should be *cut off* from Israel just as apostates and idolators were cut off from the nation and exiled in the OT Scriptures.

Obviously, an unfaithful Jew would not stop being "Jewish." That is, by definition, his ethnicity. And Paul recognized that when he referred to backslidden, rebellious Jews.

So what he is doing is creating the criteria by which God considers a Jew worthy of attaining to membership in the congregation of faithful Jews. Nothing more than this.

If you can't remember what I've said and reply to what I've actually stated, I see little reason to continue. Where did I say Paul taught that unfaithful Jews were never Jews? Paul writes of two people (1) Israel of the natural biological seeds of Abraham (2) Israel of God, the supernatural Seed (Christ) ascending from Abraham and not limited to biological seeds (as many). Then Paul takes great pains in showing us that only those belonging to Abraham's supernatural Seed (Christ) are "the Israel of God". He is not redefining unbelieving Jews, rather Paul is stating FACTS. That is that "all Israel that shall be saved" are NOT exclusively of Abraham's biological seeds, but they are of His supernatural SEED (Christ), and all Israel saved is through Gentiles of faith (supernatural Seed) completing them.

No one has said that Paul re-defines Jews, except for you!

 

[rwb]

But he didn't say it would happen during the existence of the people of faith. He said it would happen during "this generation". If he meant to say something else, he would've said something else. A generation refers to a group of people living during a certain time period. He can not have been talking about you and I, because we are not of that generation.

Yes, and if we don't get who "this generation" is right, then much of the Discourse cannot be rightly understood. Christ cannot be speaking of His biological seeds because not all that is written was fulfilled in 70 AD. Some say "this generation" speaks of the generation of the devil, because evil will be on the earth to the end of days. Christ was speaking to His disciples, telling them a parable of the fig tree showing signs of life was what they should discern. Christ was not speaking to those of their father the devil, telling them to look for these signs. Since He was speaking to His disciples, why would we limit His disciples to only those who lived in the first century AD?

While I believe the parable of the fig tree beginning to show signs of life again, after being cursed and Christ saying it would never again have life was directed to those first century disciples. Some believe the parable of the fig tree showing life is a sign of Christ coming again. That makes no sense because the fig tree, like all the trees show signs of new life during its growing cycle every year.

I believe the fig tree pertains to Israel in unbelief and when the disciples saw new life as they proclaimed the Gospel to the Jews first, the sign was fulfilled as the remnant according to election of grace believed the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit and spiritually entered the Kingdom of God. That's why I've come to believe "this generation" is the "chosen generation" that would begin small through the Jews of faith, and grow to an innumerable multitude of people from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue.

A generation is only limited to that one if our doctrine tells us that all that is written must be fulfilled in 70 AD. But 'generation' has a much broader and more inclusive way of being defined. 'Generation' is also defined as an age or time. Which is why I believe Christ was referring to the chosen generation of the people of God who will not pass until all things that are written shall be fulfilled. The chosen generation is not limited to any one time, but is the entire Gospel age that Christ ushered in when He came to earth a man.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

• This generation will not pass away...
• Things which must soon take place...
• Even those who pierced him will see him...
• Let those in Judea not go into the city...
• Those standing here will not see death before...
• When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...

These are all clear as day indications that the warnings of the Olivet discourse and the book of Revelation were pertaining to the people of Judea in the first century AD. Why do we try so hard to explain them away?

This generation speaks of all that will come to pass during the age of the Gospel.
What was written to soon take place was not His coming again, but the beginning of the building of His Church to all nations as His Gospel is proclaimed in power of the Holy Spirit.
Even those who pierced Him shall see Him when they are called to stand for judgment.
Some of what is written applies to what would come to pass against Jerusalem of Old as God pours out His wrath against an apostate people.
Some of those standing there did witness His coming in power of the Holy Spirit before they died, and they would be His witnesses.
Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and utterly destroyed just as Christ said it would be.

These are all clear signs Christ gave His disciples of all that would come to pass during this age of the Gospel as the spiritual Kingdom of God is being built through the power of His Word and Spirit. I agree it is wrong to ignore what happened in 70 AD. It too was written of, but it is equally wrong to say all things were fulfilled in 70 AD. The only way to make 70 AD fit is to take what does fit literally and then assume that which does not fit was spiritually fulfilled. I view that as using what we believe is true rather than allowing Scripture to be our guide.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you can't remember what I've said and reply to what I've actually stated, I see little reason to continue.

If you don't want to continue, that's up to you. What you said was this:

He proves that Israel in unbelief has never belonged to Israel of God.

That is what I was responding to.

Where did I say Paul taught that unfaithful Jews were never Jews?

I didn't say you said that. That is part of my argument against those, like you, who say things like you said.

Paul writes of two people (1) Israel of the natural biological seeds of Abraham (2) Israel of God, the supernatural Seed (Christ) ascending from Abraham and not limited to biological seeds (as many).

Everybody knows that God separates the Sheep from the Goats, the Righteous from the Unrighteous. As I said, Israel's Law had them separate out those who refused to properly worship and obey their God. They were to be "cut off."

All of Israel were part of Abraham's biological inheritance. And all of them were to be spiritually reborn, by obeying God from the heart, turning away from their carnal nature. They were all supposed to be Abraham's supernatural Seed.

Then Paul takes great pains in showing us that only those belonging to Abraham's supernatural Seed (Christ) are "the Israel of God". He is not redefining unbelieving Jews, rather Paul is stating FACTS. That is that "all Israel that shall be saved" are NOT exclusively of Abraham's biological seeds, but they are of His supernatural SEED (Christ), and all Israel saved is through Gentiles of faith (supernatural Seed) completing them.

No one has said that Paul re-defines Jews, except for you!

So you have the authority to speak on behalf of all those I've been talking to on this subject? Of course you do not! Though some try to get around this they actually do operate on the assumption that "Israel" never included rebellious, disobedient Jews precisely because of what you're arguing, that "true Israel" only consists of the righteous.

The point is, they were *called* to be obedient. Being disobedient does *not* remove them from their "call." The fact that the call to righteousness has been now extended to the international Church does not mean that those previously called and disobedient aren't still called!

That is the point. Some argue that having turned to disobedience their call has been permanently transferred to others. Or they argue that nations are not even called any more, if they ever were.

But if I'm right that Israel was called to righteousness as a nation, and that call has never gone away--not even in their disobedience, then we cannot redefine their call to mean something different, as a call only to remnants of nations or to other nations that are faithful. God's call is irrevocable.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Chronologically, unless you precisely know the timing of the end point, it is impossible to measure whether or not we are approaching the end of this present earth.

Yes we know the signs which helps us to understand where we are along this chronological timeline, but unless we have the prophetic events in their right chronological order, our misunderstandings confuse our understanding of where we are with respect to the end point.

The question that we have to define is what is the reference point that we are using for the end to measure against.

I could humbly suggest that the end point of the seventh age will be around the year 7,170 after the creation of Adam with an error in the calculation of this timespan around plus or minus 10 to 20 years.

Now we know from the scriptures that a season has a duration of 1,000 years and that the little while period when the beasts are released for a short period of time is not defined for us.

Signs, like earthquakes, as mentioned in the Book of Revelation, are misleading because of a translation error of the Greek word "Seismos" into the English language. Who has seen an earthquake in water or heard of an earthquake caused by an angel coming down to the face of the earth for some reason. The context is all wrong and if our context is all wrong then our ability to see the signs that indicate that the end is near, then what we are doing is trying to formulate when the end is near is simply pure conjecture.

In other words, we are wasting our time worrying when this will occur instead of pocusing on God's purposes for our very lives at this present time.

Shalom

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your belief is that God intends to redeem and forgive the Jewish people. Who are now citizens of a small part of the Holy Land. Plus about the same number still in dispersion.

Yes, that is what I believe, and what I believe the Scriptures indicate.

The problem with this, is that their ethnic purity is practically non-existent. I have lived in Israel and can vouch for the fact that the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel are a mixed peoples, from many different ethnicities.

I've been to Israel, but did not live there. I went there on my own and tried to join a kibbutz. I was turned down for health reasons.

I did not want to help Israel because they were nicer than the Arab people. The Arab people, frankly, were nicer to me when I was there, though they had ulterior motives, it seems.

No, I went there because I believe they are nasty because they're a suffering people who've been over-punished by hypocrites who thought they were better. I believe God is in the process of restoring Israel in order to bring them back to Himself at Jesus' Coming.

The important issue is not ethnic purity for me. Ethnicity is not the important thing in God's promise to Abraham, but rather, a nation that originated from a people who descended from him. People could always marry into the Jewish People. The idea was to maintain Abraham's legacy in a nation representing his posterity.

This is important in many of our families, that we have offspring who carry on our tradition and legacy. It isn't critically important because many cannot have children or lose children. But God wanted Abraham to represent Himself as a kind of ideal family of faith, to be carried on in a larger national setting. And I believe this will happen.

God intends to destroy them for their 2000 year rejection of Jesus. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Matthew 8:11-12

God did destroy them, but He also can raise them from the dead. See Eze 37.

 

[rwb]

If you don't want to continue, that's up to you. What you said was this:

He proves that Israel in unbelief has never belonged to Israel of God.

That is what I was responding to.

That's not redefining a Jew. While Israel is an ethnic people, Israel of God is all people of faith.

I didn't say you said that. That is part of my argument against those, like you, who say things like you said.

Your argument implies something not said, since the FACT that all Israel of the biological seeds of Abraham are not all Israel that shall be saved. And you continue to say Christ will save them nationally, so you come with statements like this or replacement theology because you don't want to hear the truth from Scripture. You're hoping to malign the messenger because you cannot refute Scripture. I've seen you do this every time you speak of replacement theology as though it is what we who understand the Israel of God are promoting.

Everybody knows that God separates the Sheep from the Goats, the Righteous from the Unrighteous. As I said, Israel's Law had them separate out those who refused to properly worship and obey their God. They were to be "cut off."

All of Israel were part of Abraham's biological inheritance. And all of them were to be spiritually reborn, by obeying God from the heart, turning away from their carnal nature. They were all supposed to be Abraham's supernatural Seed.

That's the problem for Abraham's biological seeds, they were never of Abraham's supernatural Seed. They are not being replaced by the Israel of God, only the remnant within them is saved according to election of grace and are the Israel of God.

So you have the authority to speak on behalf of all those I've been talking to on this subject? Of course you do not! Though some try to get around this they actually do operate on the assumption that "Israel" never included rebellious, disobedient Jews precisely because of what you're arguing, that "true Israel" only consists of the righteous.

The point is, they were *called* to be obedient. Being disobedient does *not* remove them from their "call." The fact that the call to righteousness has been now extended to the international Church does not mean that those previously called and disobedient aren't still called!

That is the point. Some argue that having turned to disobedience their call has been permanently transferred to others. Or they argue that nations are not even called any more, if they ever were.

But if I'm right that Israel was called to righteousness as a nation, and that call has never gone away--not even in their disobedience, then we cannot redefine their call to mean something different, as a call only to remnants of nations or to other nations that are faithful. God's call is irrevocable.

This is a theory that I can only conclude comes from your imagination! I've argued against this unbiblical doctrine of yours so many times, that I am not now inclined to do so again. It's like talking to a man that has not eyes to see nor ears to hear, so on this topic with you, I'm dusting off my shoes and moving on!

 

[Freedm]

Revelation was not written to Israel.

Revelation was written to 7 churches spread across Asia. Revelation was to the entire church that is still ongoing. Revelation will be fulfilled at the Second Coming.

Revelation was written for the people of that first century, whether members of churches or not. You say it will be fulfilled at the second coming but if you claim it hasn't happened yet, you have to ignore a lot of evidence that it has. Try reading it with an open mind.

 

[Freedm]

Yes, and if we don't get who "this generation" is right, then much of the Discourse cannot be rightly understood. Christ cannot be speaking of His biological seeds because not all that is written was fulfilled in 70 AD.

When you say "all that is written was not fulfilled in 70 AD" you should qualify that with "as far as I know".

 

[rwb]

When you say "all that is written was not fulfilled in 70 AD" you should qualify that with "as far as I know".

According to what is written to be fulfilled was not fulfilled in 70 AD. For example it is written:

Matthew 24:31 (KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Why were the elect not gathered by His angels if Christ returned in 70 AD?

 

[Freedm]

According to what is written to be fulfilled was not fulfilled in 70 AD. For example it is written:

Matthew 24:31 (KJV) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Why were the elect not gathered by His angels if Christ returned in 70 AD?

They were. Just not the way you imagined it. This is a description of when the new kingdom began, which includes both Jew and Gentile, whoever believes. It is the gathering of all the guests for the wedding feast, as in the parable of Matthew 22.

Matthew 22:10
So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

It is the start of the new covenant, the marriage covenant with Christ. Do you not believe that the new covenant came into effect during the first century? A covenant is a marriage. A marriage requires a feast. A feast requires the guests to be gathered. This all took place in the first century, just not the way you imagined it.

 

[rwb]

According to what is written to be fulfilled was not fulfilled in 70 AD. For example it is written:

They were. Just not the way you imagined it. This is a description of when the new kingdom began, which includes both Jew and Gentile, whoever believes. It is the gathering of all the guests for the wedding feast, as in the parable of Matthew 22.

Matthew 22:10
So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

It is the start of the new covenant, the marriage covenant with Christ. Do you not believe that the new covenant came into effect during the first century? A covenant is a marriage. A marriage requires a feast. A feast requires the guests to be gathered. This all took place in the first century, just not the way you imagined it.

This all began to take place when Christ ushered in the spiritual Kingdom of God, that will not be complete until the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached in all the world as a witness to all nations. I know the Preterit uses verses found in Scripture saying the Gospel has been preached in all the world. But what the Preterit does not explain is why the Gospel continued to be proclaimed and is still being proclaimed since it has already been a witness to all nations?

 

[Freedm]

This all began to take place when Christ ushered in the spiritual Kingdom of God, that will not be complete until the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached in all the world as a witness to all nations. I know the Preterit uses verses found in Scripture saying the Gospel has been preached in all the world. But what the Preterit does not explain is why the Gospel continued to be proclaimed and is still being proclaimed since it has already been a witness to all nations?

Why would the preterist have to explain the continuation of the gospel, if it's already proven that the gospel has been preached throughout the world? The continuation of the preaching in no way invalidates the fulfilment of the prophecy.

The futurist should be careful not to look for reasons to continue to disbelieve those things which are clearly written and fulfilled, for the sole purpose of keeping fulfillments in the future. There's no need.

 

[rwb]

Why would the preterist have to explain the continuation of the gospel, if it's already proven that the gospel has been preached throughout the world? The continuation of the preaching in no way invalidates the fulfilment of the prophecy.

The futurist should be careful not to look for reasons to continue to disbelieve those things which are clearly written and fulfilled, for the sole purpose of keeping fulfillments in the future. There's no need.

Let's try this another way. If the Gospel of the Kingdom of God had been preached in all the world to be a witness unto all nations, why wasn't the Kingdom of God complete in 70 AD? Was the Gospel of the Kingdom preached not able to do what Christ came to do, since it was sent in the power of the Holy Spirit and was to establish His Church and send the Church out with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God so His Kingdom would be complete?

Fulfillment of building the Kingdom of God through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit is not future, it is past, present and future. And when the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete the seventh trumpet will sound and time given this earth for building shall be no longer. (Rev 10:5-7) Since time marches on and the Kingdom of God is still being proclaimed it's clear that the Kingdom of God is not yet complete, therefore the Gospel of the Kingdom has not yet been a witness unto every nation.

For that matter why did the seventh trumpet not sound that time given the Church to proclaim the Kingdom of God to complete the Kingdom in 70 AD, since you say all of Revelation was fulfilled then?

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus made a very plain and simple statement in Matthew 5:5: “The meek will inherit the earth.” Jesus did not invent that statement; he quoted Psalm 37:11. Many of the Jews of Jesus’ time had lost sight of the hope that Israel would be restored on earth, and the situation is the same today. The simple meaning of Matthew 5:5 has been lost due to the traditional teaching that saved people live in heaven forever after they die. Actually, what the Bible teaches is that Jesus Christ will come down from heaven to the earth, fight and win the Battle of Armageddon, and set up his kingdom on earth, which will fill the whole earth (Ps. 2:8; 72:8-11; Dan. 2:35; 7:14; Mic. 5:4; Zech. 9:10; Rev. 2:8; 19:11-21). He will set up his palace in the newly rebuilt Jerusalem, and for 1,000 years reign over all the earth. All the people who have been saved will be there because they will have been raised from the dead. Many scholars refer to this 1,000-year kingdom as the “Millennial Kingdom.” It is the first 1,000 years of the “Kingdom” that Jesus spoke about so often when he taught about “the Kingdom of God.” After the 1,000 years are over there will be a great war (Rev. 20:7-10). Then there will be the second resurrection, and after that the Everlasting City will come down from heaven to earth, and all the saved people of all time will live in it forever (Rev. 21:1-4). Thus, the future reign of Christ on earth is divided into two parts, the Millennial Kingdom, which will last 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-7), and the Everlasting Kingdom, which will last forever (Rev. 21-22).

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation was written for the people of that first century, whether members of churches or not. You say it will be fulfilled at the second coming but if you claim it hasn't happened yet, you have to ignore a lot of evidence that it has. Try reading it with an open mind.

My mind is open to see how Revelation will be fulfilled. Those claiming it was already fulfilled have the closed mind that will never change about how it will be fulfilled.

 

[Freedm]

Let's try this another way. If the Gospel of the Kingdom of God had been preached in all the world to be a witness unto all nations, why wasn't the Kingdom of God complete in 70 AD?

What do you mean by complete? And why do you say it was not complete?

 

[Freedm]

That's why I've come to believe "this generation" is the "chosen generation" that would begin small through the Jews of faith, and grow to an innumerable multitude of people from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue.

A generation is only limited to that one if our doctrine tells us that all that is written must be fulfilled in 70 AD. But 'generation' has a much broader and more inclusive way of being defined. 'Generation' is also defined as an age or time. Which is why I believe Christ was referring to the chosen generation of the people of God who will not pass until all things that are written shall be fulfilled. The chosen generation is not limited to any one time, but is the entire Gospel age that Christ ushered in when He came to earth a man.

You have it backwards. The meaning of the word "generation" does not depend on our understanding of prophecy. Rather our understanding of prophecy should be dependent on the meaning of the word "generation".

Furthermore, Jesus spoke many times of that generation and it was always in regards to the judgment they would suffer because of their own adultery. How can he speak of this generation in all these examples here, clearly speaking of the judgments of 70 AD, but somehow still think he was speaking of people thousands of years in the future? What nonsense.

Matthew 12:39
He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

Matthew 12:41-45
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

Matthew 17:17
“You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you?

Luke 11:50-51
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Look at this last verse in particular. He's literally saying "this generation will be held responsible for the blood of the prophets". Is that not the generation of the first century AD? Or do you think we too, in the year 2023, are to be held responsible for the blood of the prophets?

And how can we take all these references to "this generation" to mean 70 AD, but somehow in Matthew 24:34 he was talking about something else? That makes no sense. No. He was constantly and consistently speaking of the same generation, which means all those things have come to pass, just as he said they would. And if we can't identify how or when those things came to pass, then our problem is in how we understand the prophecies, and we need to rethink things.

 

[rwb]

You have it backwards. The meaning of the word "generation" does not depend on our understanding of prophecy. Rather our understanding of prophecy should be dependent on the meaning of the word "generation".

Furthermore, Jesus spoke many times of that generation and it was always in regards to the judgment they would suffer because of their own adultery. How can he speak of this generation in all these examples here, clearly speaking of the judgments of 70 AD, but somehow still think he was speaking of people thousands of years in the future? What nonsense.

Matthew 12:39
He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

Matthew 12:41-45
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

Matthew 17:17
“You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you?

Luke 11:50-51
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

Look at this last verse in particular. He's literally saying "this generation will be held responsible for the blood of the prophets". Is that not the generation of the first century AD? Or do you think we too, in the year 2023, are to be held responsible for the blood of the prophets?

And how can we take all these references to "this generation" to mean 70 AD, but somehow in Matthew 24:34 he was talking about something else? That makes no sense. No. He was constantly and consistently speaking of the same generation, which means all thoseB things have come to pass, just as he said they would. And if we can't identify how or when those things came to pass, then our problem is in how we understand the prophecies, and we need to rethink things.

But what you're missing Freedm is how "this generation" alive during the first generation AD was a mixture of "this generation" Christ was speaking directly to, and "this generation" who were indeed wicked and of their father the devil.

You yourself know that Christ was speaking to His disciples when He said "this generation" shall not pass...... Just as we cannot limit the evil generation that existed in Jerusalem to only the first century unbelieving Jews, neither can we limit the disciples generation to only those first century faithful Jews. Both the evil generation and the faithful generation shall not pass till all things written shall be fulfilled.

But Christ has more to say to "this generation" He was speaking directly to. He speaks to them a parable, telling them "this generation" that they would know the Gospel of the Kingdom they were being sent unto the whole world to proclaim has come with power when they (this generation) see the fig tree beginning to show signs of life even after seeing the fig tree wither and die, being cursed to never have life in it again. The fig tree of Old symbolized Jews/Israel of Old, but there was a remnant according to election of grace according to the apostle Paul even then. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Ro 11:5) They were first century Jews coming out of the Old Covenant by grace through faith who believed Christ was the promised Messiah/Saviour who the prophets foretell would come. And through their faithful obedience as messengers of Christ to take the Gospel to every corner of the earth, the Kingdom of God that began small would be come an innumerable multitude of people from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue.

That's why we cannot limit "this generation" to the first century, but understand Christ was speaking to "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy" (1Pe 2:9-19) who shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled. Remember "this chosen generation" like the first generation of Israel are also surrounded by the evil generation that shall always physically be mistaken outwardly as belonging to the Kingdom of God the "chosen" people of God from every nation of the world.

 

[rwb]

Look at this last verse in particular. He's literally saying "this generation will be held responsible for the blood of the prophets". Is that not the generation of the first century AD? Or do you think we too, in the year 2023, are to be held responsible for the blood of the prophets?

Just as all of humanity are through Adam's seed sons/daughters of Adam, and as natural, physical descendants we too take part in Adam and share in sin that leads unto death, so too all from humanity who are of the Seed (Christ) supernaturally, have part in Him and share in His resurrection that leads unto eternal life. If the first generation of evil is the only generation responsible for all sin, why is death ordained to not only to all humanity but all of creation?

 

[Freedm]

But what you're missing Freedm is how "this generation" alive during the first generation AD was a mixture of "this generation" Christ was speaking directly to, and "this generation" who were indeed wicked and of their father the devil.

You yourself know that Christ was speaking to His disciples when He said "this generation" shall not pass...... Just as we cannot limit the evil generation that existed in Jerusalem to only the first century unbelieving Jews, neither can we limit the disciples generation to only those first century faithful Jews. Both the evil generation and the faithful generation shall not pass till all things written shall be fulfilled.

But Christ has more to say to "this generation" He was speaking directly to. He speaks to them a parable, telling them "this generation" that they would know the Gospel of the Kingdom they were being sent unto the whole world to proclaim has come with power when they (this generation) see the fig tree beginning to show signs of life even after seeing the fig tree wither and die, being cursed to never have life in it again. The fig tree of Old symbolized Jews/Israel of Old, but there was a remnant according to election of grace according to the apostle Paul even then. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Ro 11:5) They were first century Jews coming out of the Old Covenant by grace through faith who believed Christ was the promised Messiah/Saviour who the prophets foretell would come. And through their faithful obedience as messengers of Christ to take the Gospel to every corner of the earth, the Kingdom of God that began small would be come an innumerable multitude of people from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue.

That's why we cannot limit "this generation" to the first century, but understand Christ was speaking to "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy" (1Pe 2:9-19) who shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled. Remember "this chosen generation" like the first generation of Israel are also surrounded by the evil generation that shall always physically be mistaken outwardly as belonging to the Kingdom of God the "chosen" people of God from every nation of the world.

It amazes me how comfortable you are with having to explain away something so simple, solely for the purpose of supporting your preconceived beliefs. No matter how many words you use, saying "this generation" did not actually mean the generation he was speaking to, will never make as much sense as saying that it did.

And believe me, I'm speaking from experience because for the first 40 years of my life, I too explained it away, though it was always a thorn in my side, knowing that it didn't feel quite right to have to do that. I just didn't see any other way, because I too believed that Jesus had not yet returned. That was my hang up, as it is for most Christians still today, but now I finally see the light, and I'm finally free of those hang ups, and the books of Revelation and Matthew finally make sense to me, as I no longer have to take key verses and shove them into the corner where they can be safely ignored, or dealt with at a later time, because now they actually fit, and they fit perfectly. When it comes to understanding scripture, though I still don't understand everything, I can honestly say there are no more thorns in my side. No more verses that need to be tucked away because they're too embarrassing to deal with. It's like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders, and I thank the Lord for my open mind because it allowed my eyes to see.