Moses And Elijah With Jesus ???

[Webers_Home]

.
Jesus is often claimed to be a self-existent eternal being right from his
mother's womb, but no, he wasn't. The Word of John 1:1 had to give all that
up as the flesh of John 1:14; and the wording of his prayer in the 17th of
John shows him praying to have his pre-human divine characteristics
restored.

From the information we have to work with; Jesus was a normal Jewish man
whose blood was David's and Abraham's, i.e. Jesus wasn't some sort of
divine hominid; instead, he was a typical h.sapiens-- the Bible has his
genealogy, plus a record of his birth, and a record of his death. However;
Jesus is no longer reckoned a mere mortal in Heaven due to a very strange
administrative procedure.

As compensation for his exceptional service to both God and fellow men; Isa
52:13 and Phil 2:6-11 reveal that God bestowed upon Jesus Christ the name
that is above every name that can be named either in Heaven, on earth, and
under the earth. That name is Jehovah, a.k.a. Yahweh. (Isa 42:8)

So; Jesus is now officially authorized to be respected, to be identified, to be
spoken of, to be spoken to, and to speak for himself, by the name of God,
i.e. The Almighty. (Ps 45:1-7, Rev 1:8)

Ergo: as far as the Bible is concerned, Jesus is now a self-existent eternal
being because his identity by the name of God affords him all the attributes
of God: the whole ball of wax, so to speak.

OBJECTION: The Bible says God doesn't share His divinity. (Isa 42:8)

REPLY: That passage speaks of pagans and their religions: it doesn't
preclude the possibility of God sharing divinity with His only begotten son
within the walls of His own home.

Messiah's path to divinity may seem a tad ridiculous-- maybe even
fraudulent --but it's the path chosen for him so we have to work with it.

OBJECTION: Your explanation can't possibly be right; not when Deut 6:4
says; "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, The Lord is one." You Christians
have two acting as Jehovah, whereas the Law allows for only one.

REPLY: Jesus' identity as Jehovah is an administrative credential which can
be roughly compared to the purpose of the signature ring that Pharaoh lent
Joseph. (Gen 41:39-44)

* Jesus' credential was promised to his ancestor Zerubbabel by Haggai 2:21
23
_

 

[Scott Downey]

I always wondered how they knew it was Moses and Elijah? They didn't know what they looked like

Since the scripture was written after the fact, they had more knowledge of those events when they wrote these things down years later.
Most likely they heard Jesus, Elijah and Moses greeting each other and talking to each other. And not everything was written down in great detail.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

 

[pompadour]

John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

This is the very reason we know so little about Jesus. and explains the great faith that the 12 Apostles
had.
Blessed are they that have seen and believe. Holy are those that have not seen and believe.

In the beginning was the Word, the Word became flesh and dwelt among men.

Every thing that was made was made buy Him and for Him.

Jesus said " I AM the resurrection and the life, no one comes the the Father except through ME".

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Earburner]

Time travel.

Maybe it's more like a different dimension.

 

[charity]

How are we to understand the transfiguration when Jesus left his disciples to go up on the hill and there appeared to him Moses and Elijah, how can this be when the resurrection hasn't yet taken place, all the saint's are still in there graves and conscious of nothing, I believe it because its in the Bible, but how can this be before the resurrection?

Hello @Inexplicable,

All becomes clear when we read Matthew 17:9:-

'And as they came down from the mountain,
Jesus charged them, saying,
Tell the vision to no man,
until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.'

This was a vision of the risen Lord coming again, in His glory, which the Lord promised some would see, in Matthew 16:27-28. It was fulfilled several days later.

The possibility was also there for the disciples to have seen the then risen Christ return in their lifetime, but, it required that Israel repent and acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King, and they did not. Had they done so following Christ's death and resurrection, He would have returned (Acts 3:19-21).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Inexplicable]

Big topic long debate, in short scripture mentions of only two resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteousness, why then is there a different classification for Enoch, Moses and Elijah as in their own personalised resurrection, however scripture doesn't say they where resurrected but rather one was taken and the othere two where seen.

 

[EloyCraft]

How are we to understand the transfiguration when Jesus left his deciples to go up on the hill and there appeared to him Moses and Elijah, how can this be when the resurrection hasn't yet taken place, all the saint's are still in there graves and conscious of nothing, I believe it because its in the Bible, but how can this be before the resurrection?

When Jesus Transfigured He was letting His Glory be seen. He wasn't showing His future Glory or transfiguring into a higher state. He was letting the Glory He was conceived with be seen. It wasn't the Glory of judgment it was the Glory of an only son in grace and truth.

Elijah went to Paradise and immortal life where Adam and Eve once were. Satan argued for Moses' body because it wasn't going to be handed over to him. This dispute was probably ordained since Moses Killed the Egyptian. If Moses didn't have a body He wouldn't be visible with Elijah.

These two are like Adam and Eve before the fall and Jesus during His earthly life . His body is immortal but passable. It's immortal but can be killed. That's important because Elijah and Moses are waiting for the time of their martyrdom. They will witness powerfully for Jesus and their witness converts the Jews. Just like Jesus their temples are rebuilt in three days. Their resurrection is public and I'm sure those rejoicing over their bodies wished they hadn't left them in the street.

 

[Aunty Jane]

How are we to understand the transfiguration when Jesus left his deciples to go up on the hill and there appeared to him Moses and Elijah, how can this be when the resurrection hasn't yet taken place, all the saint's are still in there graves and conscious of nothing, I believe it because its in the Bible, but how can this be before the resurrection?

Jesus was fulfilling a promise he made to his disciples....
Matthew 16:28....
"Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

Matthew 17:1-9...
"Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and his brother John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. 3 And look! there appeared to them Moses and E·liʹjah conversing with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.” 5 While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.” 6 At hearing this, the disciples fell facedown and became very much afraid. 7 Then Jesus came near, and touching them, he said: “Get up. Have no fear.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one but Jesus himself. 9 As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”

Both Elijah and Moses were long dead, and the resurrection of the dead had not yet taken place. (John 5:28-29)

Hebrews 11:13 tells us that these OT men of faith 'did not get the fulfillment of the promise', but saw the future as God relayed it to them by his spirit. They knew that God's Kingdom was not from this world. (John 18:36)

Jesus was seen in his kingdom glory when Peter, James and John saw this amazing sight....but they were not real because Jesus said it was "a vision".

The Kingdom was foretold in the scriptures with Messiah as its appointed King, (Jesus Christ), attested to by the prophets (represented by Elijah) and foreshadowed by the sacrifices in the Law (represented by Moses)

That is how I understand the transfiguration.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Big topic long debate, in short scripture mentions of only two resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteousness, why then is there a different classification for Enoch, Moses and Elijah as in their own personalised resurrection, however scripture doesn't say they where resurrected but rather one was taken and the othere two where seen.

Actually there are three resurrections.....There is the "first resurrection" spoken about by both apostles, John and Paul....this is the resurrection of the "saints" or "holy ones" (the elect). (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16)

The general resurrection of the dead takes place once the Kingdom has cleansed the earth of all wickedness and God's kingdom is ruling from heaven over redeemed mankind. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4) It is a two fold resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

The wicked will never see life again because they are consigned to "gehenna"....a symbol of eternal death where a soul is "destroyed" not tortured. (Matthew 10:28)

There are no different classifications for any of them...each will be resurrected as God has chosen a place for them. Some to the heavenly realm to assist Jesus as King in the role of both "kings and priests"......but the majority to a restored paradise on earth....that is where God put us in the first place, and that is where he will have us in the future. (Isaiah 55:11)

Paradise is what Adam lost for his children in the beginning, and Jesus came to give us back what was taken from us. Paradise never was heaven.....
There was no mention of heaven or hell to Adam....just life or death. That was the only choice.

 

[charity]

When Jesus Transfigured He was letting His Glory be seen. He wasn't showing His future Glory or transfiguring into a higher state. He was letting the Glory He was conceived with be seen. It wasn't the Glory of judgment it was the Glory of an only son in grace and truth.

Hello @EloyCraft,

'For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels;
and then He shall reward every man according to his works.
Verily I say unto you,
There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death,
till they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.'
(Mat 16:27-28)

* The disciples saw, in vision form (Matthew 17:9 KJV), the Lord Jesus Christ coming in His Kingdom, the glory being described as, 'in the glory of His Father'

@EloyCraft said:-
Elijah went to Paradise and immortal life where Adam and Eve once were. Satan argued for Moses' body because it wasn't going to be handed over to him. This dispute was probably ordained since Moses Killed the Egyptian. If Moses didn't have a body He wouldn't be visible with Elijah.

These two are like Adam and Eve before the fall and Jesus during His earthly life . His body is immortal but passable. It's immortal but can be killed. That's important because Elijah and Moses are waiting for the time of their martyrdom. They will witness powerfully for Jesus and their witness converts the Jews. Just like Jesus their temples are rebuilt in three days. Their resurrection is public and I'm sure those rejoicing over their bodies wished they hadn't left them in the street.

* With respect this is simply conjecture on your part.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Inexplicable]

James and John saw this amazing sight....but they were not real because Jesus said it was "a vision

So they were not resurrected, It was only a vision?

 

[EloyCraft]

With respect this is simply conjecture on your part

Conjecture--a conclusion with incomplete information..
Can you know that without knowing if I posted all the information?.

The disciples saw, in vision form (Matthew 17:9 KJV), the Lord Jesus Christ coming in His Kingdom, the glory being described as, 'in the glory of His Father'

It is a vision. In the light of the Transfiguration they could see.
Glory.
Everything Jesus has is given by the Father.
Jesus is a true Son. The Father eternally generates the Son. The Glory He had in heaven with the Father is the Glory seen at His Transfiguration. He was born with that Glory. Jesus explained that then the Father said' I Have Glorified you, I will glorify you again.
John 12- 28

Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”


John 8-54

Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, he of whom you say, ‘He is our God,’

In the below passage John describes the Glory he saw.

John 1-14

And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.


The below passage describes the Glory of His Second coming. With power and great glory


Matt 24-30

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So they were not resurrected, It was only a vision?

Not “only” a vision, but a fulfilled promise and a foregleam of the kind of glory that they themselves would experience when they attained spirit life in heaven with him.....but it would not take place until his return. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

 

[Earburner]

I always wondered how they knew it was Moses and Elijah? They didn't know what they looked like

Yes! So, let's be real here. They saw angels.
Jesus said it:
John.1[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

 

[Earburner]

So they were not resurrected, It was only a vision?

No, actually it was a very real event. If one can entertain words that are not biblical or religious, it was heaven actually being "opened", as of a "portal" to the invisible "dimension" of the KoG.
We should not close out the fact that the KoG could be right next to us as we live, and stop thinking about it, as if it is beyond the clouds only.

Acts.17[27] That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[MatthewG]

How are we to understand the transfiguration when Jesus left his deciples to go up on the hill and there appeared to him Moses and Elijah, how can this be when the resurrection hasn't yet taken place, all the saint's are still in there graves and conscious of nothing, I believe it because its in the Bible, but how can this be before the resurrection?

Hello to you,

I believe this is because it was a vision of you go and read the accounts one of them is when Jesus and his disciples are coming back down the mountain and Jesus said tell no one of this vision until the resurrection happens.

Jesus and the transfiguration is a beautiful sight that today readers get to see and behold, I have done a teaching on it myself.

It was a clear picture of the need to look towards Jesus who would be the final prophet, that the apostles would go on to talk about, and it also means that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law. That is the reason I concluded for them both being there in the vision.

 

[Earburner]

Sorry, I disagree. In the KJV we read:
Matt.17[9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Strong's Number - G3705
"Vision":
Greek: ὅραμα
Transliteration: horama
Pronunciation: hor'-am-ah
Definition: From G3708; something gazed at that is a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight vision.
KJV Usage: vision (11x), sight (1x).
Occurs: 12
In verses: 12
The Transfiguration was a very real event, as exactly what Jesus said they would SEE.
John 1:51

 

[Inexplicable]

Thank you all for your comments and support on this bible verse, but it being controversial and subject to debate its hard to follow and remains complexed thus still not understanding why it took place, resurrection, vision or real, and its overall purpose.

 

[Earburner]

Thank you all for your comments and support on this bible verse, but it being controversial and subject to debate its hard to follow and remains complexed thus still not understanding why it took place, resurrection, vision or real, and its overall purpose.

When you can accept what Jesus said, and not the religious frenzy of the wisdom of men, then you will come to the understanding of it.
John.1[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
The disciples saw 2 angels, and therefore assumed it was Elijah and Moses.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Elijah was translated, ie never saw death and Moses was resurrected ......God's prerogative.
These are also symbols of those who have died and those who are living when Jesus returns

Elijah doesn't die at thst time, neither does he go into heaven where God and the angels live, but he is transferred to another prophetic assignment. (John 3:13) We know this by the fact that Elisha does not hold any period of mourning for his master. A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.(2Chronicles 21:12-15)

And Moses hasn't been resurrected even today. The Transfiguration was a vision, Jesus himself says so at Matthew 17:9, but not a mere illusion. Christ was actually there, though Moses and Elijah, who were dead, were not literally present. They were represented in vision. The Greek word used for “vision” at Matthew 17:9 is hoʹra·ma, also rendered “sight.” (Act 7:31) It does not imply unreality, as though the observers were laboring under a delusion. Nor were they insensible to what occurred, for they were fully awake when witnessing the transfiguration. With their literal eyes and ears they actually saw and heard what took place at that time.(Luke 9:32)