MOTB by itself does not always = LOF ??

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Spiritual Israelite

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I guess Spiritual Israelite does not want to have his opinions challenged.
That is a lie. I do not back away from any challenge to my views ever. I have explained what I believe and why. If you disagree, fine, but you can never accuse me of not wanting my views to be challenged.

We are supposed to buy into his thinking and only ask questions that conform to and correspond with his beliefs.
How does it make sense to ask me about something that only applies to your beliefs? That is for you guys to figure out, not me. Why should I need to answer questions about what would be the case if there's a physical mark of the beast when that's not what I believe? That's ridiculous. Should I ask you questions that only pertain to what is true in the case of a spiritual mark when that is not what you believe?
 

PeterAndroz

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I guess Spiritual Israelite does not want to have his opinions challenged. We are supposed to buy into his thinking and only ask questions that conform to and correspond with his beliefs.
Most of us here disagree with each other on some points and at times its maybe kinder just to ignore rather than get into a peeing contest :)
 

Anchorite

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That is a lie. I do not back away from any challenge to my views ever. I have explained what I believe and why. If you disagree, fine, but you can never accuse me of not wanting my views to be challenged.


How does it make sense to ask me about something that only applies to your beliefs? That is for you guys to figure out, not me. Why should I need to answer questions about what would be the case if there's a physical mark of the beast when that's not what I believe? That's ridiculous. Should I ask you questions that only pertain to what is true in the case of a spiritual mark when that is not what you believe?
I do not mind being asked any question, whether or not it corresponds to my personal beliefs. That’s what discussions are all about.

Your opinion about the mark of the beast being symbolic, not physical, was being challenged by a question that undermined that opinion.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I do not mind being asked any question, whether or not it corresponds to my personal beliefs. That’s what discussions are all about.
So, tell me how someone would not be able to buy or sell without the spiritual mark of the beast? Is this a legitimate question to ask you based on your beliefs? I don't think so, but I guess you do for some reason.

Your opinion about the mark of the beast being symbolic, not physical, was being challenged by a question that undermined that opinion.
No, it was not. It's ludicrous to ask me how physical things can be bought or sold without having a physical mark of the beast when that's not my understanding of the mark of the beast. It's like me asking you the question I asked above. Why ask such a question to someone who doesn't believe the mark of the beast is spiritual rather than physical? Why not ask questions that actually pertain to what someone actually believes instead of to what they don't believe?
 

Anchorite

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So, tell me how someone would not be able to buy or sell without the spiritual mark of the beast? Is this a legitimate question to ask you based on your beliefs? I don't think so, but I guess you do for some reason.
I will be happy to answer the question that does not coincide with my opinion that the mark is physical.

If the mark is “spiritual” or non-physical, an attitude or mental allegiance, perhaps interrogating questions might be asked to determine your devotion to the beast system, prior to you being able to buy or sell.

No, it was not. It's ludicrous to ask me how physical things can be bought or sold without having a physical mark of the beast when that's not my understanding of the mark of the beast. It's like me asking you the question I asked above. Why ask such a question to someone who doesn't believe the mark of the beast is spiritual rather than physical? Why not ask questions that actually pertain to what someone actually believes instead of to what they don't believe?
You do not understand how discussions work.

You do not get to determine what questions are put to you.
 
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WPM

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The Greek word for "mark" in the biblical "mark of the beast" passage (Revelation 13:16) is χάραγμα(charagma), meaning an etched stamp, branded seal, or carved inscription.
The book is saturated in symbolism. The mark of God and the mark of the beast are marks of spiritual ownership that have been around from the beginning. Futurists are quick to sidestep or ignore the many references to the mark of God in Revelation when discussing the mark of the beast. When pressed, they have little difficulty in applying a figurative interpretation to these. But we should remember, there are more references to the mark of God upon the believers in Revelation (3:12, 7:3, 4 (x2), 5 (x3), 6 (x3), 7 (x3), 8 (x3), 9:4, 14:1, 22:4), yet literalists refuse to insist on a literal interpretation of it. This is another major inconsistency with Futurist theology. This adds to the many contradictions within the Futurist position.
 

WPM

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What mark on a human being would make you afraid to kill him?

I have never seen any good speculation on this question. Except this one…

In the ancient Mediterranean world, marking the forehead with a hot iron brand or a forced tattoo (stigma) was a severe method used by Greeks and Romans to punish runaway slaves, signal ownership, and deter flight. Romans called heavily marked slaves frontes litterati ("lettered foreheads").

Putting a "mark" on a person tells everyone that no one is allowed to harm this person or kill them without answering to the person who has literally put their brand on them. In Adonai's case, it would be an overwhelming sensation to get away from Cain.

The name of Yahweh was tattooed on Cain’s forehead, meaning he was branded as belonging to God, is a possibility. Because it would scare people. They would be afraid to kill Cain because he was God’s property and God would get revenge on you.
Revelation 13:8-9, 15-17 says, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear ... And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Revelation 14:9-12 describes the awful destiny for all those who receive Satan’s mark, saying, “if any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: And they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

The fact that the converse company to the beast’s devotees are described as being Christ’s from the “foundation of the world” (Revelation 17:8), or, the elect of God of all ages (past, present and future), would confirm that the beast’s adherents relate to all those that reject Christ in this life and therefore end up in hell. It is they that commit the unpardonable sin in this life – namely stubborn, continuous and wilful rejection of the convicting promptings of the Spirit of God. The mark of the beast is the devil’s invisible spiritual sign of ownership on the damned. It confirms a man’s final rejection of Christ and his eternal allegiance to Satan. These Christ-rejecters have received their final stamp from Satan signifying his eternal ownership. Just like slaves were once marked by their owners in olden times, so these spiritual slaves are eternally marked by their owner Satan. It is this company that are eternally doomed.

Jesus warned in Matthew 12:31-32, “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

While it seems proper to understand the mark of the beast as a spiritual brand it would be wrong to relate it generally to all who are unregenerate. It is more than a sign of or on the unsaved. It is something greater than that because all who receive it are damned for all eternity. They can never be saved. It has to be the sign of all those that have went over the line of reprobation. If someone does not repent of their fallen state in this life then this leads to ultimate reprobation and Satan final stamp of eternal damnation. Scripture depicts election as being in eternity, whereas reprobation is in time.

The mark of the beast has to be the mark of reprobation that ensures a man will never see heaven. Men are obviously either saved or unsaved – but not all unsaved men have yet taken this mark of reprobation (mark of the beast). Many will eventually be saved at some future juncture. The message for them is to repent lest they receive this spiritual mark and spend eternity under the wrath of God as a consequence. The Lord is still evidently in the saving business. However, when men go over a line of disobedience (set by God) they will never again be saved.

The beast’s adherents that carry his mark certainly experience this awful irreversible unpardonable sin and are therefore separated forever from the presence of God and are eternally punished. It must be they, then, that are in view, whom the Holy Spirit identifies admire and marvel at the beast and who subsequently carry the beast’s spiritual mark. It is the wicked of all ages (past, present and future) who throughout their earthly sojourn reject Christ that finally succumb to this awful irreversible stamp of reprobation. If the mark of the beast isn’t the mark of reprobation on a man’s life then it is interesting that it does the exact same thing. It guarantees him eternal punishment with the devil and his angels. It offers him no way out or no option of backtracking. It is final and eternal.

In short, those that carry the mark of the beast speak of the full company of the unsaved that commit the unpardonable in this life – “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.” As a result of their rebellion they end up damned and doomed in a Christless hell. The antithesis company to this is the elect of God whom the Father “hath chosen … in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4) and whose names were “written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.” An interesting fact that should not be overlooked in our examination is the fact that those individuals that are written in the “book of life from the foundation of the world” (namely the elect of God) are the only ones that withhold their adoration and affections from the beast. Significantly, those incorporated within this great favoured number include not only the current believers that have trusted in Christ but also all those that will eventually come unto the Lord in salvation. After all, they too have their names “written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.”
 

WPM

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Yet without the 'mark' how will you :-
Buy food
Buy fuel
Buy electricity
Buy water
Revelation 13:16-17: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Is the buying here literal or spiritual?
  • If the beast is a spiritual entity and the mark is spiritual, why would the buying and selling not be spiritual?
  • There is other Scripture that spiritualizes buying and selling, including Revelation. So, there is compelling grounds for coming to such a deduction!
  • Why would we not conclude that in such a highly symbolic and deeply figurative book?
The book of Revelation is written in metaphorical language. It is a spiritual book written to spiritual people revealing spiritual truths about spiritual matters. I am sure we would all agree with that. It is therefore appropriate to consider the mark of the beast and the buying and selling connected to that to be in keeping with that. Basically: it is figurative language in a figurative book. Our literalist Western mind-set will often not allow for a symbolic or spiritual interpretation.

When one initially sees the phrase “buy or sell” we immediately think of economic transactions, however, a person’s salvation is not, or ever has been, dependent upon his ability or inability to financial buy or sell. Buying and selling in this passage are clearly symbolic terms for those trading in the devil’s degenerate marketplace (the world antichrist system) with the devil’s currency. The child of God is manifestly of another kingdom, his treasure is in heaven, and he has no authorization to trade with the devil's supply in the arena of sin and iniquity.

Christians are not going to be accepted in this world. They are going to be rejected because of their beliefs. It is going to be increasingly difficult for Christians to feel at home any more in this sin-cursed world the closer it gets to the end.
 
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Anchorite

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Revelation 13:16-17: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Is the buying here literal or spiritual?
  • If the beast is a spiritual entity and the mark is spiritual, why would the buying and selling not be spiritual?
  • There is other Scripture that spiritualizes buying and selling, including Revelation. So, there is compelling grounds for coming to such a deduction!
  • Why would we not conclude that in such a highly symbolic and deeply figurative book?
The book of Revelation is written in metaphorical language. It is a spiritual book written to spiritual people revealing spiritual truths about spiritual matters. I am sure we would all agree with that. It is therefore appropriate to consider the mark of the beast and the buying and selling connected to that to be in keeping with that. Basically: it is figurative language in a figurative book. Our literalist Western mind-set will often not allow for a symbolic or spiritual interpretation.

When one initially sees the phrase “buy or sell” we immediately think of economic transactions, however, a person’s salvation is not, or ever has been, dependent upon his ability or inability to financial buy or sell. Buying and selling in this passage are clearly symbolic terms for those trading in the devil’s degenerate marketplace (the world antichrist system) with the devil’s currency. The child of God is manifestly of another kingdom, his treasure is in heaven, and he has no authorization to trade with the devil's supply in the arena of sin and iniquity.

Christians are not going to be accepted in this world. They are going to be rejected because of their beliefs. It is going to be increasingly difficult for Christians to feel at home any more in this sin-cursed world the closer it gets to the end.
Who says the beast is a purely spiritual entity? Many scholars think of it as a physical technological system inhabited and given life by an evil spirit.

To accept your bizarre spiritualizing of obviously literal terms like “mark” and “buying and selling”, one has to be blind to the literal fulfillment of these terms in the onrush of financial transaction technology, RFID tattoos and computer chip implants, Flock camera ubiquity, speech censorship, one world open border immigration chaos, and AI data center surveillance systems.

We are seeing the rapid unfolding of all the means required to implement a “mark” that will enable buying and selling of physical goods and services.
 

WPM

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I guess Spiritual Israelite does not want to have his opinions challenged. We are supposed to buy into his thinking and only ask questions that conform to and correspond with his beliefs.
You are twisting what he said to you.