Must Christians obey government

[Josho]

When it comes to restrictions during a pandemic though, restrictions to keep people safe, yes we should obey the government, as these laws are meant for good to protect others.

 

[Enoch111]

In most countries like Australia you are still free to worship at home with those living in your household, you are still free to fellowship online, these restrictions don't effect your Salvation.

Salvation is not even the issue, so that should be left aside. But what you have said is NOT freedom to worship, but State-controlled restrictions on Christian liberty. When any government seeks to interfere with Christian evangelism, assembly, and worship, that is tyranny in opposition to what God desires.

We need to understand that a BOGUS CRISIS has been created by China for Western consumption, in order to destroy economies and freedoms. And just about everyone fell into this trap.

As noted by the numbers put forward by CDC, about 6% of all deaths were directly linked to COVID-19. That breaks down to
less than 5 deaths/100,000 of the population.

All others had *comorbidities* (diseases other than the virus). But CDC has chosen to present all the data DECEPTIVELY in order to promote the myth that there is a health crisis. The same applies to all Western nations, who are all marching in step with the pandemic hoax.

The Bible does say that Christians are to be subject to governments. The Bible also says that we are to obey God rather than men, when it comes to the propagation of the Gospel and Christian worship. Therefore all Christian churches should have ignored this bogus nonsense.

 

[Brakelite]

Let me say there are seasons when the righteous thing to do is resist.

I would like to make two comments on this if I may...
A. With regards righteousness, I think we need to bare in mind two things...
1. The righteousness we must be expressing is Christ's...
2. Righteousness is right doing.
So doing right is doing those things Christ Himself is
1. Telling us to do
2. Or has done Himself in His life as an example.

B. When it comes to self defense I know the present thought in the US and here in Australia among many Christians is to defend with military might as in being a part of an armed militia or having weapons parked by the front door ready to use in an instant the moment the government come calling with any intent to take away your "rights". Like for example as you suggested, the "mark of the beast". Now this depends on what you believe the mark of the beast is...and therefore dependent on who you believe the beast to be. As I said in an earlier quote, Jesus and Paul said there is a legal and godly position which the state has jurisdiction. The state over-extends its authority the moment it begins to impinge on your conscientious rights and duty to your God. So most Christians today believe the mark of the beast to be an implanted chip of sorts for it is supposed, tracking, banking, medical, and a storage facility for personal information. Resisting such a move by government I would suggest would not be beyond the states purview. However, if the "mark" was another thing altogether, such as a spiritual discipline imposed on the population with financial restraints attached to those that resist...

 

[Jay Ross]

Salvation is not even the issue, so that should be left aside. But what you have said is NOT freedom to worship, but State-controlled restrictions on Christian liberty. When any government seeks to interfere with Christian evangelism, assembly, and worship, that is tyranny in opposition to what God desires.

The question that needs to be answered is: - "Can I have the same level of Freedom in North Korea as I can have in the USA/Australia?

The answer is yes.

My liberties in North Korea may be curtailed and I may be imprisoned, but that does not mean that I have lost my freedom.

Yes I can lose my freedom if I relinquish my freedom to others. But my freedom cannot be taken from me forcibly.

Freedom is spiritual in its nature and as such, having our liberties removed does not stop us from worshipping God or from acknowledging that God is always with us no matter how dark the environment is that we find ourselves in.

Too many people equate their "freedoms" are the same as their liberties and as such, if they enter into a dark environment, they lose their sense of God being with them because they cannot do as the please.

If God should chose to take my life for His purposes, what concern is that of mine? Either way I can still worship God.

Are you that secure in your relationship with God?

 

[charity]

A topic that is especially timely today in this fallen world that is getting 'smaller' every year.

Today, many people are in fear whether imagined or true. Some people are resisting government, many are obedient to it.

Should Christians obey government under any circumstance(s)?

Are there times when Christians should resist government? And if so, how are they to conduct themselves?

Please cite scripture where and when possible as the 'glue' of these discussions as in all biblical discussions of debate.

Thank you,

Blessings

APAK

'He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good;
and what doth the LORD require of thee,
but to do justly,
and to love mercy,
and to walk humbly with thy God?
(Micah 6:8)

Hello @APAK

We are able to vote, and have freedom of speech still in the UK. Therefore we are able to make our requests or complaints known to our government authorities without fear of censure. We are able to make peaceful protests, and thereby defuse the possibility of revolt. However our freedom of speech is gradually being eroded.

Yet it is true that, ' The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted. '

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[truthseer]

Should Christians obey government under any circumstance(s)? Are there times when Christians should resist government?

Having others supplied the Scripture, does any one follow the thought out into the idea of what is God's that Caesar can't have? The answer is obvious. Martin Luther discovered the answer while sitting ridding what the body didn't want.

 

[charity]

Having others supplied the Scripture, does any one follow the thought out into the idea of what is God's that Caesar can't have? The answer is obvious. Martin Luther discovered the answer while sitting ridding what the body didn't want.

'Shall we give, or shall we not give?
But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them,
"Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it."
And they brought it.
And He saith unto them, "Whose is this image and superscription?"
And they said unto Him, "Caesar's."
And Jesus answering said unto them,
"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's,
and to God the things that are God's."
And they marvelled at Him.'
(Mark 12:15-17)

Hello @truthseer

I would be interested to know what you have to say concerning this, if you will, please.

* What was paid to 'Caesar' was tribute money, required of those under the dominion of Rome. We pay taxes, and obey the law of the land that we live in as it's citizens, but nothing more is required of us.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Prayer Warrior]

There are things in which the state has jurisdiction...in those areas the state is to be respected. In those areas where the state has no jurisdiction, men ought to obey God rather than men.

I agree with this and would just add that our obedience to God should be absolute, but our obedience to government (man) should not be absolute. IOW, as you have said, Backlit, when it comes down to obeying God or man, we should always obey God. Also, our obedience to the State is not blind obedience. We are to keep a wary eye on the policies of those in government and hold them accountable....

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

A topic that is especially timely today in this fallen world that is getting 'smaller' every year.

Today, many people are in fear whether imagined or true. Some people are resisting government, many are obedient to it.

Should Christians obey government under any circumstance(s)?

Are there times when Christians should resist government? And if so, how are they to conduct themselves?

Please cite scripture where and when possible as the 'glue' of these discussions as in all biblical discussions of debate.

Thank you,

Blessings

APAK

there is this verse in the bible i am not sure what chapter

but it was about dying
it said do not be stupid and do something that will make yourself be killed before your time comes to an end
note:this is not the exact word if i remember the chapter i would just put it here but i forgot where it is i hope someone knows

 

[bbyrd009]

10So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king.
11He said, “This will be the manner of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them to his own chariots and horses, to run in front of his chariots.
12He will appoint some for himself as commanders of thousands and of fifties, and others to plow his ground, to reap his harvest, to make his weapons of war, and to equip his chariots.
13And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers.
14He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his servants.
15He will take a tenth of your grain and grape harvest and give it to his officials and servants.
16And he will take your menservants and maidservants and your best cattleb and donkeys and put them to his own use.
17He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves.
18When that day comes, you will beg for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you on that day.”

and fwiw Christ comes when all rulers, authorities and powers have been destroyed, vv coming later

 

[APAK]

Apak,
Let me say there are seasons when the righteous thing to do is resist. For example we have most of Christendom in Germany under Hitler being silent in the face of His antisemitism, and hatred, yet a few voices resisted to their own detriment and some even tried to help the Jews survive such as the Ten Boom family. So in the face of atrocity and tyranny we as Christians should never remain silent, but we should always speak the truth in Love to those who are in power... Paul did over and over again, Stephen filled with the Holy Ghost did not hold back, but spoke the truth and was stoned for it. We as Christians are the salt of the earth, when we lose our saltiness is when we are not worth anything. We are the light to a fallen world, we need to let that light shine, not hide it in an earthen vessel. We are not given the spirit of fear, and there is coming a time when we will be brought before councils and tried, when we will have to give our testimony, we will not hold back then as the Holy Spirit will give us unction to speak the truth, we must merely speak what he give us to say.

And then self defense is a whole different question as well. When Tyranny becomes too powerful, there is but one option remaining to fight. When the beast says take the mark or else, it is resistance to authority to refuse the mark. Romans 13 will not apply then, now will it?

Even the preaching of the Gospel in some places is against the authorities of those nations. This country is quickly evolving into that as well even now. What happens then? does Romans 13 apply? or will you Obey God and continue the great commission?

When does romans 13 apply? when the government is not out to destroy you for your faith, when you have freedom to preach the word and speak the truth, even if it offends. Not a popular thing these days, but just remember that our only offensive weapon is the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God Everything else is defensive.... swing the sword till you have no more strength to and even then the Holy Ghost will give you the words when you have none ....See Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Well said... well done David...I was going to get around to your summary of a similar kind in the end....you've let a lot of the cats out of the bags....I would like to hear more of it at your convenience....thjs is a HUGE SUBJECT! and a very emotionally charged one at that..

Like when is 'tyranny' becoming too much? When to stay submissive, when to communicate in humility and love, although being assertive at the same time and pointing out the errors of governance. And then self-defense is another issue all together...when tyranny is essentially and actually at your doorsteps..should a Christian wait until this happens...should they have acted sooner.....it is all in God's hand and his Spirit directs each individual differently...let me settle down a bit and figure out how to respond to some of the other comments...

And welcome here...

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

Before the time of Christ the Roman republic was considered god. The state was god. Everything and everybody was subordinate to the state. The state ruled all. By the time Christ came, the state had reposed in the person of Caesar. Caesar was at the time of Christ considered divine, as the state was divine, so now is Caesar. So when Christ said "Render to Caesar that which is Caesars, and to God that which is God's, Jesus was placing an impenetrable barrier between the state, and God, and was a direct affront to the divine claims of statehood or kingly power over the individual conscience. It is up to the individual conscience to decide what things pertain to God, and what things pertain to the state. Yet Jesus nor Paul suggested that the state had no place at all. The scripture merely proposes that the state take its rightful place, and stay there. The moment the state encroaches upon territory rightly belonging to God, it takes upon itself authority to which it has no legal claim. There are things in which the state has jurisdiction...in those areas the state is to be respected. In those areas where the state has no jurisdiction, men ought to obey God rather than men.

..my added rant to it....
Another well thought out response.....and when does a government encroach on the territory of God? And when a Christian discerns this encroachment already occurring, they listen to the Spirit above all, intently....the Spirit may say, 'hold back', 'move forward and become vocal,' 'be prepared to safeguard family and self with arms.......' There is not one Christian that can truly judge another's action if the Spirit directs the show. When government tyranny is occurring is does not mean a gun is already in your face or handcuffs are on your body, or you are in 'permanent house arrest' status. If these things are occurring already then you have not listened to the Spirit and the train has already gone. We are to always to prepare and defend God's territory of human government that he puts in place for HIS people. Christians are not of this world. Many Christians act and speak as if we are the same as the world and we all should just shut up and be great examples of love and humility when there are plans afoot to make us into a type of N Korea or China....that is a real problem with Christianity today....... many are cowards...

I like your current take on the subject thus far Backlit

 

[APAK]

Having others supplied the Scripture, does any one follow the thought out into the idea of what is God's that Caesar can't have? The answer is obvious. Martin Luther discovered the answer while sitting ridding what the body didn't want.

Caesar of course can own and kill the body although he cannot possess or own a true believer's soul. I hope you are not suggesting we all die and this is the standing order of the Spirit for all Christians today; even when the enemy and tyranny is at our doorsteps. ready to kill?

Martin never lived in a tyrannical environment as we are now beginning to see in the West today. Yes, the body wants to do something about the injustices and hate by using physical means, immediately. We are to listen to the Spirit for the way to go. Evidently Martin was given instructions of the Spirit, as a Christian, to stay calm and peaceful under his circumstances and defy the urges of his natural body to act. Of course he was assassinated for it as well.

Martin also knew if he used violence from the start he would have been in prison or died earlier. His message of hope had to be heard first.,,and the Spirit I believe ensured that Martin would listen - he did.

We often want to do a favor for Christ and run ahead or over react to injustices as they occur, and then we also do not react when we should....we all need to listen the Spirit

Hello and welcome..Bless you

APAK

 

[Brakelite]

I think that by the time the world, and I mean the entire planet ( hated of all Nations for My name sake) gets around to seeking our destruction, there will be nothing for us to defend nor any reason to defend it. Just leave it behind, take what you can carry, and head for the hills. It is no glory to God if at this time you are martyred. None will gain by your death, none will be encouraged by it, none will be uplifted by such a testimony. So God will not permit such a senseless death. Psalm 91.

 

[bbyrd009]

When it comes to restrictions during a pandemic though, restrictions to keep people safe, yes we should obey the government, as these laws are meant for good to protect others.

ha well problem is see is that our govs got co-opted long time ago eh; if you got a Central Bank, you got a corrupted gov, as your example even demonstrates imo.
We started with "flatten the curve" right, which implies absolutely no fewer infections whatsoever, but merely a spreading out of those infections so that hospitals did not get overwhelmed; but now its all about "how many new infections" as if that mattered a whit

 

[charity]

Must Christians obey government?

'Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses,
the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life;
that he may please Him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.'
(2 Tim. 2:1-4)

Hello @APAK,

Surely our citizenship is no longer in this world, and our minds should be engaged on matters to do with where our citizenship lies now (Ephesians 2:19), and not with a world which is passing away. We are to seek peace with all men, and to show forth the love of Christ within our sphere. The affairs of this life are something we are not to become entangled in.

'Brethren, be followers together of me,
and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often,
and now tell you even weeping,
that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly,
and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
For our conversation is in heaven;
from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
(Php 3:17+)

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

Christ comes when all rulers, authorities and powers have been destroyed

1 Corinthians 15:24 Lexicon: then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

 

[APAK]

Must Christians obey government?

'Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses,
the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life;
that he may please Him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.'
(2 Tim. 2:1-4)

Hello @APAK,

Surely our citizenship is no longer in this world, and our minds should be engaged on matters to do with where our citizenship lies now (Ephesians 2:19), and not with a world which is passing away. We are to seek peace with all men, and to show forth the love of Christ within our sphere. The affairs of this life are something we are not to become entangled in.

'Brethren, be followers together of me,
and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often,
and now tell you even weeping,
that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly,
and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
For our conversation is in heaven;
from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
(Php 3:17+)

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris

On the one hand that you have revealed, you are 100 percent correct. This is our normal day to day mode of living as Christians in this world under various governments and authorities.

There is another hand to show however, IMO, and it can be mostly supported by scripture. As we continue to live in this fallen world we avoid entanglements, and in the affairs of this world. We do this until government encroaches on the true powers ordained by our creator for human governance. I believe there are times we act as tools of Christ to reveal the truth in evil. It is necessary and must be executed. IMO it is a command. And the way we do this at times is driven by good conscious set in place by the Spirit. It can be by loving chastisement, to a verbal warning, to outright defiance and protection for others and self, when governance becomes too unbearable and tyrannical.

I believe we are seeing this again today.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

I think that by the time the world, and I mean the entire planet ( hated of all Nations for My name sake) gets around to seeking our destruction, there will be nothing for us to defend nor any reason to defend it. Just leave it behind, take what you can carry, and head for the hills. It is no glory to God if at this time you are martyred. None will gain by your death, none will be encouraged by it, none will be uplifted by such a testimony. So God will not permit such a senseless death. Psalm 91.

Yes, we are to be hated by ALL NATIONS for Christ...and how does that ever happen?.....not by always being compliant to tyranny because many construe Romans 13 as always being silent, loving and humble and that God says so....we are to become tools for Christ at times in love and also in displaying the hate and rage in support of the Spirit and Christ. The Spirit also hates this evil in men and we are to mimic the Spirit....we echo the Spirit...to suffer the human consequences if necessary of torture and brutal death....great thought again Backlit

 

[Truman]

A topic that is especially timely today in this fallen world that is getting 'smaller' every year.

Today, many people are in fear whether imagined or true. Some people are resisting government, many are obedient to it.

Should Christians obey government under any circumstance(s)?

Are there times when Christians should resist government? And if so, how are they to conduct themselves?

Please cite scripture where and when possible as the 'glue' of these discussions as in all biblical discussions of debate.

Thank you,

Blessings

APAK

Hi. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego replied to him, "King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and He will deliver us from Your majesty's hand. But even if He does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship your image of gold you have set up." Daniel 3:16-18 NIV
Although these 3 guys were to be thrown into a furnace, they kept their respect for the king's authority. They did not rebel and they did insult him either. Out of reverence for their God, they submitted to the King's authority.
David did the same thing with King Saul. He knew that Saul was King by God's hand and knew that if he rebelled against Saul, he'd be rebelling against God. David understood that corrupt authority is better than anarchy. Notice that David did not hang around to get speared by Saul. Shalom.
P.S. Whenever one is faced with having to choose to obey God or man, choose God. This is good disobedience. But it's not rebellion.