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bbyrd009

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mjrhealth said:
so is the road to hell
yes--but the hell that you cannot find, in the Scripture you do not believe? You have not been to every congregation on the planet, mjr, even if i am inclined to agree with you. But you might be condemning something that God has allowed, or even ordained. We know God uses the imperfect to do His Will. In this condemning of others, it is not them who are changed, it is you.
 

mjrhealth

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but the hell that you cannot find, in the Scripture you do not believe
If there was no such place, people would never have seeing it, It would not ber good for satan to promote such a place than there is,

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 

bbyrd009

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mjrhealth said:
If there was no such place, people would never have seeing it, It would not ber good for satan to promote such a place than there is,

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
funny to me that you are quotething the King, but the reftag is in HCSB, hmm.

Anyway,
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a large net thrown into the sea. It collected every kind of fish,ba
48and when it was full, they dragged it ashore, sat down, and gathered the good fish into containers, but threw out the worthless ones.
49So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, separate the evil people from the righteous,bb
50and throw them into the blazing furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

you might see that there is another way to interpret this passage, that being in the frame set by v 47, "the kingdom of heaven is like..."
iow if you postulate a literal furnace in some undetermined future, you might very well be doing satan a favor, by obscuring his true nature; he is not called the Unseen One for nothing imo. (Meshach, Shadrach, and Abed~nego might also be considered in this context, as it seems to me they are not being)

So now an "is like" parable is accepted as being literal, a literal place, and of course "at the end of the age" suggests a certain date, when these (now anthropomorphized) angels will be grabbing people by the scruff and throwing them into a furnace; when i suggest that people have in fact never seen this, but you seem to be suggesting that some have? Imo we only have testimony of one such occurrence that i am aware of, that being MS and A.
 

Wormwood

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Stranger said:
So, do you vote and participate in local and national elections? Why? Or why not? Are you dishonoring Jesus Christ when you vote?

If there is a movement to take away or silence your vote, do you keep silent?

Democracy is a rule of the masses. The U.S. is supposed to be a Republican or rule through representation form of govt.

(Rom. 12:18) "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." You must decide what lies within you.

Stranger
Some elections I have voted and others I have not. No, I don't think I am dishonoring Christ, or I wouldn't vote. No, I don't believe there is a movement to prevent me from voting. The US is a republic, but its based in a democratic system.

Anyway, I have no idea what you are driving at. What does this have to do with the need for America to split or Christians to leave their governing authorities if they disagree with them? Again, I think the issue is that we are to be Christ's people and not predominately identify with a political party. Regardless of who is in office, Christians are to pray for their leaders and live as obedient, hard-working citizens.

Moreover, I serve my country in the military. I do not do this primarily because of my allegiance to the country (although I am very grateful for the freedoms we have), but out of service to God.
 

Stranger

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Wormwood said:
Some elections I have voted and others I have not. No, I don't think I am dishonoring Christ, or I wouldn't vote. No, I don't believe there is a movement to prevent me from voting. The US is a republic, but its based in a democratic system.

Anyway, I have no idea what you are driving at. What does this have to do with the need for America to split or Christians to leave their governing authorities if they disagree with them? Again, I think the issue is that we are to be Christ's people and not predominately identify with a political party. Regardless of who is in office, Christians are to pray for their leaders and live as obedient, hard-working citizens.

Moreover, I serve my country in the military. I do not do this primarily because of my allegiance to the country (although I am very grateful for the freedoms we have), but out of service to God.
So....you vote to promote a political system. And that, because you have some political beliefs.

I didn't ask if you knew of a movement to take away your vote. I asked if there was such a movement, would you keep silent or oppose it? Quit avoiding the question. Quit trying to frame your answer deceptively.

God never said you had to serve in the military. And the draft hasn't been held in years. But, you want me to believe you joined because of God and not patriotism.

You stated in post #16 that our goal as believers is not to usher in a political system. Yet, you vote for a political party. And, you avoid my question concerning resistance against those who may try and take away your vote, because you know you would resist such a move. And, you serve in the military, which means you answer directly to the president, as he is your commander and chief.

Tell me, in the church you attend, is there an American flag in the front?

So, you are quite active in supporting a political body and country. You just don't want to admit it. You want me to believe you do all these things because of God and not politics or patriotism. Yet, if other believers do the same, only in a way you disagree with, then we are out of line with God. We should get back to being a good Christian and hard working citizen.

Methinks you are being dishonest with yourself. It is not due to your Christianity that you disagree with me. It's your politics.

Tell me, as a Christian, during the American Revolution, whose side would you have been on?

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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"Christian" + "which side are you on?" = "have not separated," imo.

One should at least contemplate that God was likely on the side of the Native Americans, as difficult as that is to contemplate.
 

Wormwood

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Stranger said:
So....you vote to promote a political system. And that, because you have some political beliefs.

I didn't ask if you knew of a movement to take away your vote. I asked if there was such a movement, would you keep silent or oppose it? Quit avoiding the question. Quit trying to frame your answer deceptively.

God never said you had to serve in the military. And the draft hasn't been held in years. But, you want me to believe you joined because of God and not patriotism.

You stated in post #16 that our goal as believers is not to usher in a political system. Yet, you vote for a political party. And, you avoid my question concerning resistance against those who may try and take away your vote, because you know you would resist such a move. And, you serve in the military, which means you answer directly to the president, as he is your commander and chief.

Tell me, in the church you attend, is there an American flag in the front?

So, you are quite active in supporting a political body and country. You just don't want to admit it. You want me to believe you do all these things because of God and not politics or patriotism. Yet, if other believers do the same, only in a way you disagree with, then we are out of line with God. We should get back to being a good Christian and hard working citizen.

Methinks you are being dishonest with yourself. It is not due to your Christianity that you disagree with me. It's your politics.

Tell me, as a Christian, during the American Revolution, whose side would you have been on?

Stranger
Of course I have some political beliefs. However they do not supersede my religious beliefs or values. I am not caught up in political rants and ravings such as defaming or slandering political leaders...even if I disagree with their views.

I am not framing anything deceptively. Your grammar is poor. Don't use the present tense if you are speaking about a hypothetical scenario. Anyway, I would not oppose it with force if that is what you are asking. I offer my vote and opinion because our government provides that freedom. If I were under a government that didn't have that freedom, I wouldn't seek to shed blood to change it.

I don't care what you believe about me. I am a non-combatant. I serve as a Chaplain. Maybe you should get the whole story before you start making asinine assumptions. I encourage struggling military members and families and talk to them about Jesus.

In post 16 I was referring to your OP about creating essentially a civil war and splitting our country because of political differences. There is a big difference in abiding under the current laws of our land to express our political views through votes and rebelling against the government to create a new one.

Yes there is a flag at the front, because it is on a military base.

Again, nothing wrong with supporting our government. In fact, I think the Bible is pretty clear that we should support our governments, and pray for its leaders. Obviously, if our government seeks to force us to dishonor God, we are not to do that. I don't believe our government forces us to dishonor God. We have freedom and I am very thankful for that.

I don't think I would have been shooting people during the revolution, to be honest. While I understand that outrage our forefathers had, I personally disagree with taking up arms to overthrow a government. However, I also recognize that God is the Lord of the earth and he has used empires and individuals in the past to tear down or set up nations. So I am not casting blame at anyone, just saying I don't know that Biblically I would feel justified overthrowing any government. I think the Church has made far more impact by faithfully suffering under oppressive regimes than picking up arms to overthrow them.
 

bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
His answer was not to rebel or leave the country, but to encourage Christians to live peaceable and godly lives while praying for their leaders.
while this may have been true from his pov, it does not accurately portray that Paul was a wanted man, with a price on his head imo. Paul had most certainly become a traitor to his country, from the pov of the rulers.
 

Wormwood

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bbyrd009 said:
while this may have been true from his pov, it does not accurately portray that Paul was a wanted man, with a price on his head imo. Paul had most certainly become a traitor to his country, from the pov of the rulers.
Many Christians were martyred for their faith. However, they still obeyed the laws of the land and prayed for their leaders. They did not excite rebellions or civil wars as implied by this OP.
 

bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
Many Christians were martyred for their faith. However, they still obeyed the laws of the land and prayed for their leaders. They did not excite rebellions or civil wars as implied by this OP.
ha well you made me go and read the op again, and i guess i have to agree with you there. It is tempting to accept arbitrary divisions, "Christian right" or "athiestic left," as if they were completely accurate, when they actually just appeal to our individual sensibilities, i think. Aren't "right" and "left" political divides? What becomes of the Atheistic Right, and the Christian Left, in these povs, one wonders?

i am struck by how the "Christian Right" leaders now seem to be more firmly allayed with the "Right" than the "Christian" aspects of their chosen labels, even if an individual that identifies as a Christian might balk at their pastor placing "hands of protection against satanic attack" upon a guy who has firmly and repeatedly rejected God, and whose bible is The Prince. So i'm not even quite sure what "Christian Right" means anymore tbh. "Praying for" seems to have become "Pandering to" somehow. The Christian Right seems to have got a lobby in Congress, a toehold in the world now, if you will.

How long before salvation can be openly bought for money again?

As for any calls for secession, these do seem to me to be misplaced, as we are called to leave the world anyway, if we are "Christians," so it seems as if some state of nirvana or bliss, "peace," is suggested as being achievable via secession, or maintainable? as if what we have been experiencing is "peace?" Not even considering what the Book says of those who cry "Peace," i can tell you that despite what we are fed in the "news" the US is the least peaceful place on the planet, by far, all things considered, although we are quite adept at just hiding or exporting the less peaceful aspects of our existence.

i guess that might be perceived as complete bunk to anyone with their eyes closed tight enough, but once again i am struck by how the most spoiled people on the planet also seem to be the most miserable, generally speaking, and these same ones, those most assured of their Eternal Salvation, also seem to be the ones most desperate for Jesus to come and save them again! This seems to define the Christian Right today.
 

bbyrd009

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And conflating the "must separate" of Scripture with the OP borders on the criminal imo, but then i consider the Christian Right to be criminals, no offense meant to Stranger, as we surely have our differing definitions for those. So i guess it depends upon which Christian Right one is referring to.
 

Wormwood

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Labeling any political or religious group as "criminal"pretty much goes against everything I was saying. So I don't know. how you can agree with me one the one hand, but then paint an entire political/religious segment as criminal on the other. Maybe you should spend time praying for these people. Whether they are right or wrong, I think they are genuinely trying to do what they feel is right and is best for the country. Suggesting they are evil is not a very good way of fostering the type of spirit I think Christ desires for us to have as God-honoring citizens.
 

bbyrd009

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Wormwood said:
Labeling any political or religious group as "criminal"pretty much goes against everything I was saying. So I don't know. how you can agree with me one the one hand, but then paint an entire political/religious segment as criminal on the other. Maybe you should spend time praying for these people. Whether they are right or wrong, I think they are genuinely trying to do what they feel is right and is best for the country. Suggesting they are evil is not a very good way of fostering the type of spirit I think Christ desires for us to have as God-honoring citizens.
good point!
 

bbyrd009

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i think way too much responsibility is put on leaders, and that is surely an unfair characterization. I'm sure the will of the people is truly represented. People often really do not want answers, not the real ones--that a child would give--and so a market is created, and a transaction occurs, which can easily lead one into a position of "seller."

i think it should further be acknowledged that the whole premise is wrong; "fear of hell" is a horrible way to recruit.
It just sounds death centric, doesn't it? I mean believe what you like but i find it much more productive to just manifest Christ as best i am able in each transaction, and leave them wondering where i am coming from lol

Creation is the more ancient frame, seems a lot better to me.
 

Stranger

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Of course I have some political beliefs. However they do not supersede my religious beliefs or values. I am not caught up in political rants and ravings such as defaming or slandering political leaders...even if I disagree with their views.

I am not framing anything deceptively. Your grammar is poor. Don't use the present tense if you are speaking about a hypothetical scenario. Anyway, I would not oppose it with force if that is what you are asking. I offer my vote and opinion because our government provides that freedom. If I were under a government that didn't have that freedom, I wouldn't seek to shed blood to change it.

I don't care what you believe about me. I am a non-combatant. I serve as a Chaplain. Maybe you should get the whole story before you start making asinine assumptions. I encourage struggling military members and families and talk to them about Jesus.

In post 16 I was referring to your OP about creating essentially a civil war and splitting our country because of political differences. There is a big difference in abiding under the current laws of our land to express our political views through votes and rebelling against the government to create a new one.

Yes there is a flag at the front, because it is on a military base.

Again, nothing wrong with supporting our government. In fact, I think the Bible is pretty clear that we should support our governments, and pray for its leaders. Obviously, if our government seeks to force us to dishonor God, we are not to do that. I don't believe our government forces us to dishonor God. We have freedom and I am very thankful for that.

I don't think I would have been shooting people during the revolution, to be honest. While I understand that outrage our forefathers had, I personally disagree with taking up arms to overthrow a government. However, I also recognize that God is the Lord of the earth and he has used empires and individuals in the past to tear down or set up nations. So I am not casting blame at anyone, just saying I don't know that Biblically I would feel justified overthrowing any government. I think the Church has made far more impact by faithfully suffering under oppressive regimes than picking up arms to overthrow them.

Well, my political beliefs do not supersede my religious beliefs or values either. But I have them, just like you have them. And, I am not 'ranting' or 'raving'. Simply stating my opinion. See, it's only a rant or rave because you disagree politically.

Concerning my grammar...you understood what I was saying. Therefore it accomplished it's purpose. Yes you offer your vote and opinion because the government gives you that freedom. And, guess what, the government gives me the right to give my opinions also, at least for now. But that can change, and is changing now. People who voted for Trump and conservative values are now seen as 'deplorables' . You see. It is not that they are just against the candidate, they are against the voter also. This voter is full of hate and doesn't represent the 'American values'. The attempt of the media and left is to intimidate the conservative voter through media bullying and violence.

You say if you were under a government that didn't have that freedom you would not seek to shed blood to change it. I believe what I said was that we need to separate to allow both sides to live under the type of rule they want.

Maybe you should realize that everyone that is in the military serves the military towards it's objective, irregardless if you are infantry or non-combatant. And, no one forced you into the military to do that. You chose. Meaning again, you answer directly to the President of the U.S, because he is your Commander in Chief. And you have an American flag in front of your church. That flag represents freedom to abortions. Freedom for homosexuals to be in your military. Freedom to remove Christian symbols from State and Federal courthouses and schools. Do these things dishonor God? Yet you speak of me as allowing politics to supersede my Christianity.

I didn't ask if you would be shooting people in the American Revolution. I asked whose side you would have been on? As I have said before, it's a good thing the early Christians who made up this country, knew what they were about.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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Oh God, here we go with the "Christian Forefathers" drek again. They mostly left the Olde Worlde to get away from all the religious oppression, is what i read.
 

ScottA

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Christians and the Christian right, must understand, that we cannot exist with the athiestic left. Trump is finding that out in not being able to do what he wants to do. We must forgo this so-called idea of being 'united'. We are not united. The good and the evil divide us. We are divided. We must recognize it and try and separate for the good of our people. Our people being the God fearing Christians. The 'United states' is over, it is done. We haven't been united since 1865.

Both groups, the left and the right, need to acknowledge this and allow for secession so as to maintain the peace. Give each state a place it wants to go. And then honor that.

Our country, the US, is an embarrassment, because it is built on the facade of unity. And there is no unity.

Stranger
Your statements are understandable, even somewhat agreeable and true. But that is not the solution.

The lack of unity we now see is not incompatible with the plan of God, any more than Christ has set child against parent and brother against brother. There is a godly purpose and method to this would-be madness. While we should not condone those who oppose God, it is God who has sent us among them. Shall we then say, No, to God, that we might find agreement within the body? No...we are to shine our Light into the darkness, and stand upon the hill that we have been placed. Do the unsaved have no gifts, even if they do not know who they serve? No, they too serve their own purpose before God. Do not loose heart or be dismayed, Christ is the victor. What we do, we do in his name. Stand fast.
 

Stranger

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Your statements are understandable, even somewhat agreeable and true. But that is not the solution.

The lack of unity we now see is not incompatible with the plan of God, any more than Christ has set child against parent and brother against brother. There is a godly purpose and method to this would-be madness. While we should not condone those who oppose God, it is God who has sent us among them. Shall we then say, No, to God, that we might find agreement within the body? No...we are to shine our Light into the darkness, and stand upon the hill that we have been placed. Do the unsaved have no gifts, even if they do not know who they serve? No, they too serve their own purpose before God. Do not loose heart or be dismayed, Christ is the victor. What we do, we do in his name. Stand fast.

I have not lost heart, nor am I dismayed. I see God's hand in all things no matter how they turn out. And if you take your argument back to the begining of this country, that it is all part of God's purpose, and we accept it and shine as lights, then you must also agree that the early Christians in America in conquering the Indians and setting up a Christian political body, was the plan of God. And that didn't happen because they did nothing. They recognized they needed a political environment that was friendly toward Christianity. Was that not God?

And, once God has established a safe country from which Christians can function and evangelize and send out missionaries in peace, the greater the advancement for the kingdom of God. If God saw that separation was needed to form a Christian country, why is it different now? Even in the early church the Christians fled to other places once the persecution set in. (Acts 8:4) Christians in the U.S. are already guilty of allowing the liberal left to take away their heritage as Christians and replace it with a worldly system. Is God pleased with that?

God gave us this country. He expects His people to maintain what He has given. Not to ignore and say, God's will be done.

Stranger
 

ScottA

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I have not lost heart, nor am I dismayed. I see God's hand in all things no matter how they turn out. And if you take your argument back to the begining of this country, that it is all part of God's purpose, and we accept it and shine as lights, then you must also agree that the early Christians in America in conquering the Indians and setting up a Christian political body, was the plan of God. And that didn't happen because they did nothing. They recognized they needed a political environment that was friendly toward Christianity. Was that not God?

And, once God has established a safe country from which Christians can function and evangelize and send out missionaries in peace, the greater the advancement for the kingdom of God. If God saw that separation was needed to form a Christian country, why is it different now? Even in the early church the Christians fled to other places once the persecution set in. (Acts 8:4) Christians in the U.S. are already guilty of allowing the liberal left to take away their heritage as Christians and replace it with a worldly system. Is God pleased with that?

God gave us this country. He expects His people to maintain what He has given. Not to ignore and say, God's will be done.

Stranger
Again, I mostly agree. But I disagree with the idea of One nation under God, and one not. That is not victory. That is giving place to evil in the form of an ungodly nation. Jesus overcame all, and it is he who is dividing the sheep from the goats (not by geography). History will indeed continue to manifest according to the will of the people involved as well as the will of God, but I would not recommend dividing the flocks for him.
 

Stranger

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Again, I mostly agree. But I disagree with the idea of One nation under God, and one not. That is not victory. That is giving place to evil in the form of an ungodly nation. Jesus overcame all, and it is he who is dividing the sheep from the goats (not by geography). History will indeed continue to manifest according to the will of the people involved as well as the will of God, but I would not recommend dividing the flocks for him.

No need to make anyone go where they don't want. If a nation wants to remain without God, then they can. But there needs to be a nation whose God is God and Christ. Your only alternative is to let the nation go and be a nation without God.

Well, the division of the sheep and goat nations is by geography. And, it was done solely on the basis of how a people believed God concerning the Jews during the tribulation. So, God is much concerned over a people allowing their nation to become an unGodly nation.

Stranger