My agnostic friend says: "I don't need it." - How would you respond?

[Brakelite]

You don't know what you're talking about. Atheist Howard Storm was converted bv His encounter with Jesus during his NDE.
y

I didn't say Jesus couldn't communicate with people in dreams and visions. Islamic people are being converted every day as a result of encountering Jesus... Whether it is an NDE or otherwise, doesn't matter.
But what I said is true in my post. The dead cannot communicate with the living. Demons do impersonate dead relatives. And people are particularly receptive to deception when in stress and coma and unconsciousness in severe illness.
And if your once atheist had a real encounter with the real Jesus and he was truly converted, good on him. What's he doing now, and what's he testifying to today?

 

[St. SteVen]

The dead cannot communicate with the living.

How do you explain the Transfiguration?

/

 

[Brakelite]

How do you explain the Transfiguration?

/

They were dead? Are you sure?

 

[St. SteVen]

They were dead? Are you sure?

Actually, no one is "dead".

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

/

 

[Berserk]

I believe in and celebrate Jesus' resurrection. But the evidence for NDEs is far superior to the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in fact, makes that Gospel evidence more credible. For that reason, internet NDE discussions can be an effective tool for Christian apologetics. Great harm to the cause of Christ is done by fundamentalists who are quick to attribute any paranormal experiences to demons
that don't neatly fit into their narrow agendas.

 

[St. SteVen]

I believe in and celebrate Jesus' resurrection. But the evidence for NDEs is far superior to the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in fact, makes that Gospel evidence more credible. For that reason, internet NDE discussions can be an effective tool for Christian apologetics. Great harm to the cause of Christ is done by fundamentalists who are quick to attribute any paranormal experiences to demons
that don't neatly fit into their narrow agendas.

Aren't most NDEs dismissed as being the mind of the beholder only?

And the experiences tend to track with the beliefs of the beholder as well.
Or even away from Christianity for Christian beholders.

/

 

[Brakelite]

Actually, no one is "dead".

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

/

Technically correct. They are asleep, waiting the resurrection.

 

[Berserk]

Aren't most NDEs dismissed as being the mind of the beholder only?

And the experiences tend to track with the beliefs of the beholder as well.
Or even away from Christianity for Christian beholders.

/

Atheists like Howard Storm have been converted through NDEs. Muslims never see Muhammad
and one non-Christian Jewish woman saw Jesus during her NDE.

 

[Matthias]

Actually, no one is "dead".

Luke 20:37-39 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

/

Cemeteries are filled with dead people.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were / are dead.

Isn’t the subject of the conversation the resurrection of the dead?

Resurrection is the means by which the dead are made alive again.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be resurrected when Jesus returns.

 

[St. SteVen]

Technically correct. They are asleep, waiting the resurrection.

I wonder if they get up in the middle of the night to use the toilet?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Atheists like Howard Storm have been converted through NDEs. Muslims never see Muhammad
and one non-Jewish woman saw Jesus during her NDE.

I think I remember atheist Dan Barker having an NDE that was new age.
But I couldn't find the citation.

/

 

[Matthias]

“For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.”

(2 Corinthians 5:3, NLT)

When will the dead put on spiritual bodies? Is it not when they are resurrected from the grave?

 

[TheHC]

Were you actually satisfied with the answer to that question? Not sure I am.

/

Sorry for being so late to respond, I had to leave before I finished replying, and I think my response got erased. Oh well…

I don’t know what you were taught, but I was shown that Genesis 3:1-6 provides an outline, revealing the issues raised of questioning God’s sovereignty versus man’s ability to self-rule, and questioning God’s truthfulness.

This “self-rule” issue has required a lot of time, time for men to rule themselves w/o God intervening.

God did step in @ the Flood, because the “sons of God” were taking women as wives, “all whom they chose.” (Genesis 6:1-4) These were the “angels who sinned” (2 Peter 2:4,5), the ones who “forsook their natural dwelling place.” -Jude 1:6

BTW, we have evidence of these “sons of God” (angels) sleeping with women, in the ancient myths, ie., Greek, Norse, Hindu, etc. Their common thread, which is an indication of truth, is the “gods” sleeping with women & fathering children, ie., Hercules, Perseus, etc.


For the most part, though, God has removed Himself from mankind’s endeavors, allowing them to face the consequences of their choices.

Although the activities and abilities of these wicked angels have been somewhat curtailed when they were “thrown into Tartarus”, they have been “misleading the entire inhabited earth” in some fashion or another. — Revelation 12:9,12.

God’s “appointed time” as per Revelation 11:18 is soon to come… His “Will” for the earth to be accomplished through His “Kingdom” -Matthew 6:9,10

I mean, mankind’s suffering has been, and is still, tough to deal with…. But the most we individually suffer is 70 or 80 years. (If we’re sick or born with health issues, a lot sooner.) That’s nothing compared to our future hope!

 

[Jericho]

There are a couple of ways we could go with this. It's really not about religion; it's about having a personal relationship with God\Jesus. If someone has never really had this kind of relationship, they will have difficulty understanding the need for it because they can't miss something they've never had. They have no point of reference to compare it with.

I also think most people who say they don't need God haven't been through any major life challenges. Science and medicine don't have all the answers and never will. There are some things that can't be fixed through natural means. We are limited beings who can't even save our own souls; that's why we need God.

As an aside, I remember Hugh Ross talking about how only humans can tame animals and only God can tame the human heart. Take a look at the news, and it's pretty self-evident that the world is a mess. Every day, I see examples of why people need God. Without it, humans are self-destructive, impulsive, and often irrational.

 

[Randy Kluth]

My agnostic friend acknowledges that some people need something, like religion, to help them get along in life.
He considers himself to be in the group that doesn't need something, like religion, to help him get along in life.

I think this is his polite way of saying, crutches are fine for those who need them, but he doesn't need one.
Ironically, he walks using a cane. - LOL

Humor aside, how would you respond? Why do we need a relationship with God?
Or, more to the point, why does he need a relationship with God? Remember, he is agnostic,
so appeals to the existence of God and the reliability of the Bible have little bearing.

He was raised Lutheran, baptized and confirmed in the church.
Stopped going to church at some point. Married a Catholic woman that was also estranged from the church.
Which ended in a nasty divorce which nearly destroyed my friend. I have been an important support for him.
He is now remarried to a Protestant Christian who is also estranged from the church, but has a relationship with God.

/ cc: @ChristisGod @mailmandan @Lizbeth @quietthinker @amadeus @David in NJ @Hillsage @Lambano @Peterlag @marks @1stCenturyLady @St. SteVen

I was also raised a Lutheran. We had quite a large class in catechism, but nearly all of our young people quit church once confirmed.

I kept going but succumbed to my generation's temptations to sin. Some, like me, found something unattractive with the church but something I needed with God. It is because I felt I was destroying my relationship with God that I turned back to the church, albeit in a different denomination.

I continue to have problems with the church, but not with God. I realize that the church simply reflects Christian society, which suffers all kinds of problem, just as I did.

Those who have no particular interest in a long-term relationship with God cannot be convinced to return to it or to have it to start with. It is something you are born with--a need for God for meaning, for acceptance, for self-realization.

Those who dislike being "yoked" to God will get their wish, in suffering some distance from Him forever. I do not relish the thought, but apparently, they do.

Apologetics, or the "science of proving God," is needed with some people who have genuine concerns, due to misconceptions created in a world filled with lies. But underneath it all is the reality that we are persuaded by "emotional" needs like personal security, love, and relationships. Relationship with God is just as much as "relationship" as it is with other people.

 

[St. SteVen]

Take a look at the news, and it's pretty self-evident that the world is a mess. ...

Thanks for your post.
My friend takes a look at the news and it tells him why he doesn't want to be a Christian.

/

 

[Jericho]

Thanks for your post.
My friend takes a look at the news and it tells him why he doesn't want to be a Christian.

/

How so?

 

[St. SteVen]

How so?

Professing Christians in the area of conservative politics.
Their behavior is reprehensible. He wouldn't want to be associated with such.
To our shame, frankly.

/

 

[Jericho]

Professing Christians in the area of conservative politics.
Their behavior is reprehensible. He wouldn't want to be associated with such.
To our shame, frankly.

/

What behaviour, exactly? Regardless, that would be the wrong conclusion to draw. The world isn't a mess because of conservative politics. It's been a mess since the fall.

 

[St. SteVen]

What behaviour, exactly? Regardless, that would be the wrong conclusion to draw. The world isn't a mess because of conservative politics. It's been a mess since the fall.

I couldn't cite exact people and transgressions.
He informs me of this stuff. Not as an anti-Christian example,
but more of an anti-conservative example.
Still, the association is obvious.

He knows the world is a mess.
His desire is to be part of a solution, not part of the problem.

/