I would tell him that he has judged himself unworthy of eternal life and its no longer your responsibility. You can't convince someone of anything. He knows about Jesus and rejects him. I still have love for the lost but I am growing less and less tolerant people that think all they need is themselves. Mockers and scoffers and people that just want to argue and try to get you to show proof. If thats what they want then what they will choose.
My agnostic friend says: "I don't need it." - How would you respond?
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Yeah like Paul talking to the Jews telling them he would go to the gentiles!
Right. He obviously had no interest in maintaining a relationship with them.
That's not my situation. Did you read the OP? (opening post)
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VictoryinJesus
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That’s a great question which I don’t have the answer to. But your question stands out to me because I’ve been struggling with to “put on Christ” and how do you tell someone this is beneficial and not just another false image?
I write to work things out and I’ve come to a major question that I don’t know the answer to. I’ve been watching videos of people with multiple personalities where each personality has a functioning role within the body of the person. It reminds me of the body of Christ, and how each member has a functioning role. But in multiple personalities these are made up coping mechanisms. But I’ve been thinking how we all do this in a way. For example coping mechanisms of money, fame, power, even religion. I can see my mom is weak mentally but if you try to say anything to her she does not want to hear …her face changes (I mean the whole expression) and she shuts you out using this coping mechanism that is in-your face rejection, stubbornness, a ice-coldness of “I don’t want to hear it.” I don’t mean her not wanting to hear religion but she has….never been able to hear she is ever wrong. It’s inconceivable for her. I see in myself different personalities too! There’s the doubtful self-critical (sort of a way to cope by whining) and then days of a confident approach (where I think, I hope I don’t ever go back to doubtful and negative thinking). In religion it can become like my mom (Imo) where we are so convinced we reject hearing anything else that doesn’t align with what we believe. The one thing people who have multiple personalities say is they can’t discard (give up) those personalities that all have a functioning role in coping. Reminds me so much of when Jesus Christ walked and spoke to people of the one thing they didn’t want “to give up.” I’m struggling with multiple personalities being created to give strength(coping) in weakness….and how putting the personality, the qualities of Christ on is different from putting on falsehoods. Maybe that doesn’t make sense but I too am struggling with how do you tell someone to unclothe from falsehoods and to put on Christ? What I hear your friend saying is that he is content with his coping mechanisms and why does he need yours? It’s a big question to me….what makes putting on Christ different from all the ways of coping. Main things I think of is multiple personalities isolates and even though it seems like a functioning body where each has a role…the body of Christ is supposed to not isolate but instead all the functioning parts are “the bond of love is your perfection”. Why put on Christ? Another is I think he frees from falsehoods unlike all the other coping mechanisms. Maybe none of that helps…but consider your friend who is convinced he doesn’t need to put on Christ. A warning though I hear in the Word is to not destroy a brother for whom Christ died. Just my opinion but I wouldn’t try to kick away his ways of coping which says “I’m fine. I don’t need Christ.” And love him while he is asserting he doesn’t need Christ…because I’m almost 100percent, no I am 100 percent certain you have been there asserting “I don’t need Christ.” I say that because we all have even though we may deny and say we haven’t been there. And yet Christ still loved you. To me that is what your supposed to do and leave the rest to God. Love him even in his imperfections which is the Fathers perfection (his strength made perfect in weakness) that he doesn’t love only those who love Him and salute Him.
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I haven't asked him directly. Probably sees Jesus as an important religious figure.
One of many.
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VictoryinJesus
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Not really. still considering it. I do see He is good and is not teaching denial or covering things up, nor is He teaching falsehoods or lies or hiding, or imprisonment but instead freedom. But I can’t put my finger on “put on Christ” and “be you transformed by the renewing of your mind”. How that “to put on Christ” is drastically different from putting on a false image or false images.
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I have always understood putting on Christ as like a garment.
"Christ in us" is an internal thing. "Putting on Christ" is allowing that internal presence to be external.
In the same that we enjoy wearing new clothes. We feel great and look great.
When people look at us, they should see Jesus, in a sense. Not literally, of course.
Interesting that you paired this up with transformation by the renewal of our minds, The two go hand in hand.
Rather than conforming to the world's way of thinking and values, we view things through the lens of God.
How we think will effect how we appear to others. The putting on Christ aspect.
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VictoryinJesus
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I probably paired to “put on Christ” with “be you transformed by the renewing of you mind” because of Colossians 3:9-14 which has been on my mind the past couple of day: - Do not lie to one another, since you stripped off the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created it— 11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, and free, but Christ is all, and in all.
12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so must you do also. 14 In addition to all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
I hadn’t noticed until the other day that Colossians speaks of “the renewing of your mind” in unison with “put of Christ”…very strong words I think is “since you stripped off the old self”… I see (with the vigor)like someone overcome by a swarm of bees or fire ants…stripping off their clothes so fast, that they will strip naked in broad daylight regardless of who is watching —the seeing you have stripped of the old self —with the same vigorous movement of having made up the mind to strip it off.
Why haven’t you asked him? Do you plan to?
You wrote earlier about your friend’s attitude toward professing Christians in the area of politics. That causes me to recall the quote by Ghandi -
“I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
If your friend likes Christ, what does he like about him? Why would he not be willing to believe him?
If you knew the answer to that question then I think it would, or might, open a good avenue of conversation for you with him.
I would try to get his eyes off of people who claim to be Christians (making no determination as to whether they actually are or not) and on Christ.
If you asked your agnostic friend, "What might it take to motivate you to launch a burning quest to discover the truth about Christianity?" which of these options might best represent his response?
(1) I would need to increasingly feel that my current secular worldview is inadequate for a meaningful and fulfilling life.
(2) I would need a self-authenticating experience of God's loving presence.
(3) I would need to experience, witness or verify a convincing miracle.
(4) I would need convincing evidence
(a) for the existence of an intelligent Creator
(b) for the authenticity of NDEs or contact from deceased loved ones
(c) for Jesus' bodily resurrection
(1) I would need to increasingly feel that my current secular worldview is inadequate for a meaningful and fulfilling life.
(2) I would need a self-authenticating experience of God's loving presence.
(3) I would need to experience, witness or verify a convincing miracle.
(4) I would need convincing evidence
(a) for the existence of an intelligent Creator
(b) for the authenticity of NDEs or contact from deceased loved ones
(c) for Jesus' bodily resurrection
Great post, thanks.
I would guess 2 or 3.
I sent him a link to this topic, so he might read this.
I think if I was well-motivated to see a change in his life I would pray for his healing.
He has health issues. I would be willing to pray for him if he wanted it.
But a person needs to be believing in healing, most likely, for it to work.
As a ministry, I mean. Obviously God can heal whoever he wants to heal.
Even Jesus was thwarted by unbelief in his own hometown.
I would establish a measurable baseline and then pray into it.
You need to see measurable results.
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Tell them I hope to see you heaven, but to go there you need to repent and let Jesus into your life.
quietthinker
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My agnostic friend says: "I don't need it." - How would you respond?
Religion? ...nahhhhh, I don't need it either, I have Jesus!
I saw my friend again this weekend.
@Berserk had written this some time back,
"What would it take to get your agnostic friend to join this site and start a thread airing all his probing questions?"
So, I wanted to follow up with my friend since I had not received a response to the email invitation I had sent him.
In person he replied that he had gone to the link for this topic and had read through some of the responses here.
But he had no interest in starting a topic to get questions answered.
We talked about how I thought that apologetics had only a limited ability to persuade someone.
My current thinking was that what a person really needs is a divine encounter.
I shared that I was reading a book (you see pasted below) about divine encounters.
Relating to my friend about the healing encounters that take place in such situations.
Which he quickly relegated as "psychosomatic" reactions to the suggestion of healing.
Thus taking divine healing off the table. I was a bit stunned. But I always appreciate his brutal honesty.
He knows he can speak his mind with me. And I know he meant no disrespect.
And I know that even people who have had genuine encounters and were
quite serious about their faith can walk away as well. Here is just one story of many.
I can only conclude that only God can save. There is no human means that is guaranteed.
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