Hobie
Well-Known Member
No, it will be the only thing that can separate them from God, which is what they seek and this is granted..
My agnostic friend says: "I don't need it." - How would you respond?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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No worries, those were all great topics as well. Thanks.
Agree.
I had to grapple with this issue when a sister-in-law told my mother-in-law that she "couldn't believe in a God who would put people in hell."
Mom was beside herself to know how to respond. At the time I recited all the typical evangelical apologetics for the hell doctrine. But it left me hollow inside. Was that the best we could do? This led to some spiritual soul-searching introspection and Bible study.
A week or so later a Bible teacher that I had a lot of respect for said he didn't believe in a forever burning hell. Say what? I wanted to hear more.
That was my introduction to the three biblical doctrines of the final judgement. And the most appealing of the three to me was UR. (Ultimate Redemption) Also known as Christian Universalism.
Anyway, we should discuss this stumbling block of ECT in hell, and how to answer the objections by unbelievers. (prospects)
/ @Hillsage
Rev. Wombat said:
Thank God for the lake of fire!
It is a fallacy to claim that God is giving sinners what they truly want when he tosses them in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape.
This fallacy is intended to absolve God of the claimed horrible act by blaming it on the victims.
It also sets up a choice fallacy, as if everyone had a choice. Not true.
/
Thank God for the lake of fire!
Say what? No one "seeks" the lake of fire.
It is a fallacy to claim that God is giving sinners what they truly want when he tosses them in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape.
This fallacy is intended to absolve God of the claimed horrible act by blaming it on the victims.
It also sets up a choice fallacy, as if everyone had a choice. Not true.
/
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I don't believe Hobie was suggesting that people want to burn in hell. However, most people who reject salvation in Christ do so because they cannot abide Christianity. They do not want church, they despise holiness, hymn singing is anathema to them, going without sin and appeasing their carnal natures are what they want. But what they don't want is God. Being thrust into heaven and the company of holy angels would to each of them be the ultimate torture. So God gives them what they want
Sorry to snip this out of the middle of your post.
But this is the part I most agree with.
And I suppose @Hobie meant what you are saying in your whole post.
But I think the major stumbling block is "Christianity" and the church,
or what these things represent to our world.
Perhaps Gandhi said it best.
/
Even believers are seeking God OUTSIDE of the church.
I was surprised at how many there were when I started posting on forums and meeting these really fine folks.
They have their reasons. And I certainly could have left the church many times for similar reasons.
I'm still in the church. I suppose I don't know any better. - LOL
Again, this is the victim blaming apologetic.
I can't imagine any unbeliever claiming such a thing.
Except in anger to hurt a Christian they aren't getting along with.
/
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
In the beginning there was only 'the church'. It was 'the church', for all of the apostle's lives. The first use of the term "Catholic Church" (literally meaning "universal church") was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD).
AFTER all the apostles were supposedly DEAD (no historical record of John dying) the Christian 'church and faith' grew more organized. In 313 AD, the Roman Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which accepted Christianity: 10 years later, it had become the official religion of the Roman Empire also known as The Roman Catholic church in 313 AD.
On July 16, 1054, Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius was excommunicated, starting the “Great Schism” that created the two largest denominations in Christianity—the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths.
The Orthodox church does not believe in the Purgatory or the Hell of the Roman Catholic church
In the beginning UNIVERSALISM covered the doctrine just like the first BAPTIST church would have covered being 'the BAPTIST movement'. But with the next 1700 years that UNIVERSALISM doctrine became very morphed.....just like the BAPTIST denomination. That's why I consider UNIVERSALISM to be the same doctrinal OCEAN as BAPTIST denomination. None of the splinters define the whole.
GOOGLE says; "Though dozens and dozens of Baptist denominations exist, over 90% of Baptists belong to just five groups:" I hope you're getting my point.
You like UR (Ultimate Redemption) which may or may not be a perfect 'doctrine' I don't know. I like UR (Ultimate Reconciliation) Which may or may not be better????
2CO 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
So, according to scripture ALL of humanity was reconciled BACK to God, because of the Cross of Christ. PERIOD, DONE, OVER. Price paid and God is satisfied concerning the ULTIMATE price of sin for ETERNITY past, present and future.
19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Now our message is to tell people that Jesus died for your sins and God is not mad at anyone for their sins because they are FORGIVEN. Then the church says so all you have to do to be saved is accept Jesus as your savior and Your sins WILL BE forgiven!!! Say what???? I thought they WERE forgiven. Where does scripture say the ETERNAL consequence went back into effect?
20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
There are TWO RECONCILIATIONS; 1. US Reconciled TO GOD. 2. God Reconciled TO US. The first reconciliation is completed, the last reconciliation will be the final, or ULTIMATE one.
Here is what I preach to unbelievers. You WERE forgiven for the ETERNAL consequence of your sins.....past, present and future. BUT BUT, BUT, if you do sin you are still going to undergo a TEMPORAL consequence for your ETERNALLY forgiven sins. Why? Because the cross never forgave the TEMPORAL consequences. And those consequences were the consequences of the first covenant from God to man, in the Garden....."THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH". Not ETERNAL DEATH, TORTURE, PUNISHMENT, yada, yada, yada. But temporal death here and now. YOU WILL REAP WHAT YOU SOW. That's why you and I have seen "Christians" dying TEMPORALLY all our lives, confessing that doctrinal lie until they're DEAD....IN Hell, AKA hades, AKA the grave.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I agree with you as far as you go, but you have omitted one very important factor essential for an individual to be ultimately saved... Faith.In the beginning there was only 'the church'. That was 'the church', of the apostle's lives. The first use of the term "Catholic Church" (literally meaning "universal church") was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD).
AFTER all the apostles were supposedly DEAD. (no historical record of John dying).
Over time, the Christian 'church and faith' grew more organized. In 313 AD, the Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which accepted Christianity: 10 years later, it had become the official religion of the Roman Empire also known as The Roman Catholic church in 313 AD.
On July 16, 1054, Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius was excommunicated, starting the “Great Schism” that created the two largest denominations in Christianity—the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths.
The Orthodox church does not believe in the Purgatory or the Hell of the Roman Catholic church
In the beginning UNIVERSALISM covered the doctrine just like the first BAPTIST church would have covered being the BAPTIST movement. But with the next 1700 years that doctrine became very morphed.....just like the BAPTIST denomination. That's why I consider UNIVERSALISM to be the same doctrinal OCEAN as BAPTIST. None of the
GOOGLE says; "Though dozens and dozens of Baptist denominations exist, over 90% of Baptists belong to just five groups:" I hope you're getting my point.
You like UR (Ultimate Redemption) which may or may not be a perfect 'doctrine' I don't know. I like UR (Ultimate Reconciliation) Which may or may not be better????
2CO 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
So, according to scripture ALL of humanity was reconciled BACK to God, because of the Cross of Christ. PERIOD, DONE, OVER. Price paid and God is satisfied concerning the ULTIMATE price of sin for ETERNITY past, present and future.
19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Now our message is to tell people that Jesus died for your sins and God is not mad at anyone for their sins because they are FORGIVEN. Then the church says so all yoiu have to do to be saved is accept Jesus as your savior and Your sins WILL BE forgiven!!! Say what???? I thought they WERE forgiven. Where does scripture say the ETERNAL consequence is back in effect?
20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Here is what I preach to unbelievers. You WERE forgiven for the ETERNAL consequence of your sins.....past, present and future. BUT BUT, BUT, if you do sin your are still going to undergo the TEMPORAL consequence for your ETERNALLY forgiven sins. Why? Because the cross never forgave the TEMPORAL consequences. And those consequences were the conseqquences of the first covenant from God to man, in the Garden....."THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH". Not ETERNAL DEATH, TORTURE, PUNISHMENT, yada, yada, yada. But temporal death here and now. YOU WILL REAP WHAT YOU SOW. That's why you and I have seen "Christians" dying TEMPORALLY all our lives, confessing that lie until they're DEAD....IN Hell, AKA hades, AKA the grave.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Faith in what you may ask. Not what. Who. Faith in the word... Promises... Of God. Trusting that what He has said is absolute truth. That indeed Jesus died and shed His blood in order to redeem you and reconcile you to the Father. This faith must be personal, and must accept that you, as an individual, is included in that general reconciliation of the world. In fact, that faith ought to extend itself to believing that if you were the only person on the planet that had sinned, amongst billions who were all perfectly innocent, the Father would have sent His only begotten Son to die for you. For ye are saved by grace through faith...
Also, and I'm not sure why you posted that historical narrative, but the church of Rome was never Catholic... That is merely a self opinionated self exalting title Rome have itself in order to bolster is claim of precedence over Christendom. Since the first century, the gospel rapidly spread through all the known world, and by the time of Constantine was already turning the world upside down in places the church in Rome had never heard of, let alone ventured into with missionaries. And more so, when the Roman church grew strong and politically influential by the 6th century, churches outside is immediate jurisdiction refused papal authority and continued in the Lord's business happily independent of the corruptions and power grabbing that the bishops of Rome had adopted. Since then, Catholicism has been beside itself to vilify those other churches, making them heretics, and in many cases attempting to destroy them. And they were indeed heretics regarding the false doctrines and distortions to scripture that Rome were entertaining... But they weren't heretics to the gospel and the love of God through Jesus.
Also, and I'm not sure why you posted that historical narrative, but the church of Rome was never Catholic... That is merely a self opinionated self exalting title Rome have itself in order to bolster is claim of precedence over Christendom. Since the first century, the gospel rapidly spread through all the known world, and by the time of Constantine was already turning the world upside down in places the church in Rome had never heard of, let alone ventured into with missionaries. And more so, when the Roman church grew strong and politically influential by the 6th century, churches outside is immediate jurisdiction refused papal authority and continued in the Lord's business happily independent of the corruptions and power grabbing that the bishops of Rome had adopted. Since then, Catholicism has been beside itself to vilify those other churches, making them heretics, and in many cases attempting to destroy them. And they were indeed heretics regarding the false doctrines and distortions to scripture that Rome were entertaining... But they weren't heretics to the gospel and the love of God through Jesus.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Do you believe in predestination?
Two words suffice.....DOUBTING Thomas. Did he or the twelve 'choose Jesus' or did Jesus FIRST choose them? Did Thomas have Faith to believe in the risen Lord Jesus, or did he have to SEE to believe? Yes, he did!
ROM 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God."
12* So each of us shall give account/LOGOS of himself to God.
"ISA 45:23 By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.'"
It will be done in the ages to come according to Eph 2:7,8.
EPH 2:7* that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8* For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this (FAITH) is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
Why did they not believe in this age? Because God never gave them the faith to believe in the age they were living in. Where was FAITH required from Adam until 'wherever' in the OT? NADA, it was always about your WALK and not just empty TALK....Again do you believe in predestination? I DO.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
In a sense that our sanctification is preplanned, yes. As far as salvation is concerned, God has made all the provisions necessary for all mankind to be brought to saving faith in Christ. But not all mankind will avail themselves of the gift offered. They were not predestined to reject it. God wants all men to be saved. That so many will not be saved is not on Him... He will be more disappointed than anyone that so many will die in their sins.
Can we really make a blanket statement like that? How do we define "all mankind"?
After Christ? Do we include before Christ? What of those who have never so much as heard the name of Jesus?
I've heard the stories about an isolated tribe having been reached. But is that the norm? Doubtful.
/
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Your description talks about FOREKNOWLEDGE IMO. I'm not talking about a "preplanned" 'plan' , that's up to you, to 'work' for salvation. I'm talking about PREDESTINATION and not FOREKNOWLEDGE.
The salvation of your spirit is 100% PREDESTINED IMO. Scripture says "appointed" or "ordained" in Acts 13, and is the Greek word TASSO which is defined below.
Strong's 5021 tasso: to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): "appoint, determine, ordain, set."
ACT 13:48 When the Gentiles HEARD this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed/tasso for eternal life believed.
If you weren't ordained/appointed to believe, then you didn't. If He hadn't 'CALLED' your spiritul ears never HEARD anything.
Nobody "avails" themselves to this FIRST salvation of your spirit. You have to be "drawn of the father", "Called" "convicted of the Holy Spirit" 'found by the shepherd', and given the "GIFT of FAITH" in order to believe.
JOH 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
If God has given ALL to Him then ALL will be saved. It's just a question as to WHEN, and that's His calling not ours to make.
1CO 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Your spirit is not saved by FAITH it is saved BY GRACE....through faith. And that FAITH doesn't come unless you get CALLED. All, but one verse talking about FAITH SAVING are all but one, talking about TEMPORAL salvation forgivenenss. Not ETERNAL. Luke 7:58. 18:42, 1Tim 2:15, James 2:14, 5:15.
EPH 2:8* For by GRACE you have been SAVED through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God --
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Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Totally agreed....until the last line.
IMO They are NOT CHILDREN of the Most High God.
JOH 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become CHILDREN /teknon of God;
"children" = 5043 teknon: a child (as produced)
They are NOT BABES of The Most High God
1CO 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes/nepios in Christ.
"babe" = 3516 nepios: not speaking, i.e. an infant (minor); fig. a simple-minded person, an immature Christian
They will be the mature manifested SONS/huios of the Most High God.
ROM 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the SONS of God to be revealed.
It will be those who attained to the "high calling in Christ" who became "perfect" becoming "the image of the stature of the fullness of Christ IN US. 'The bride without spot or wrinkle.'
They will not be those who were the 'underachievers' or those 'overcome'. They will be the "OVERCOMERS" out of the church of these last days.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I said...As far as salvation is concerned, God has made all the provisions necessary for all mankind to be brought to saving faith in Christ...and I believe that is an accurate statement.
"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". 2 Peter 3:9
"For God so loved the world, that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him, shall have everlasting life". John 3;16
KJV Ezekiel 33:11
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
KJV Luke 24:47
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem
KJV Revelation 14:6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
.
Okay, thanks for the clarification, and the provided scriptures.
- Were "all the provisions necessary" in place before Christ arrived?
The Bible tells that the message will reach the whole world before that end comes.
This infers that some missed out. ??? (before the message reached the whole world) ???
- Is there provision for them somehow?
/
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
So do you believe 2Peter 3:9 which you quote? What I'm 'hearing' in reading that verse is this; it's GOD'S WILL vs YOUR WILL. And scripture isn't betting on 'your will' beating the will of GOD. And what do we need an "EVERLASTING GOSPEL" for in Revelation 14:6? I thought it only lasts until you die, according to nominal Christianity.
2TI 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing,
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. GOD may PERHAPS GRANT that they will REPENT AND come to know the truth,
So does 'your interpretation' of both verses agree? I believe they both agree with what I've just shared. And my opinion is that PREDESTINATION trumps FOREKNOWLEDGE for salvation, but only of your spirit. But not for the salvation of your soul...which is the salvation that comes AFTER your "spirit" is "born again" or saved.
Your soul's salvation is not what Jesus died for on the cross. He LIVED out the salvation of His and our souls. And when you start working on the salvation of your soul with the leading of the born again holy spirit of CHRIST IN YOU then
PHI 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation (SOUL) with fear and trembling;
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In responding to your agnostic friend's perspective and considering the context of his experiences, it's essential to approach the conversation with empathy and understanding. Here are some points to consider when discussing the need for a relationship with God, especially with someone who identifies as agnostic:
Meaning and Purpose:
Many people find a sense of meaning, purpose, and fulfillment through their relationship with God. It provides a framework for understanding the deeper questions of life and one's purpose in the world.
Comfort and Support:
A relationship with God can offer comfort and support, especially during challenging times. It becomes a source of strength and solace in the face of life's difficulties.
Moral and Ethical Framework:
For those with a belief in God, a religious framework often provides a moral and ethical foundation. It helps shape values and guides decision-making, contributing to a sense of integrity and righteousness.
Community and Connection:
Being part of a religious community can offer a sense of belonging and connection. It provides opportunities for shared values, mutual support, and a network of relationships that can be enriching.
Personal Transformation:
Some people experience personal transformation through their relationship with God. It can bring about positive changes in character, habits, and outlook on life.
Given your friend's agnostic stance and past experiences, it's important to approach this conversation with sensitivity. Instead of directly appealing to the existence of God or the reliability of the Bible, consider sharing personal stories or testimonies of individuals who have found meaning, strength, and transformation through their relationship with God.
You might also emphasize the idea that everyone's journey is unique, and what works for one person may not work for another. If he has questions or concerns, be open to listening without judgment and encourage a respectful dialogue about spirituality and faith.
Finally, your role as a supportive friend has likely been significant in his life. Continue to be a source of understanding and encouragement, respecting his beliefs while gently sharing the positive impact that a relationship with God has had on others.
If he is open to further exploration, you can suggest exploring these topics in a non-confrontational manner, perhaps through literature, podcasts, or discussions that present various perspectives on spirituality and meaning in life.
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed post.
Welcome to the forum. Seems like you will be a real asset.
/
This is the best place to be. We NEED Him! We can't do anything without Him.
John 15:1-7
[1]I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[2]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[3]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[4]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[5]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[6]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[7]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Luke 18:9-14
[9]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
[10]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
[11]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
[12]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
[13]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
[14]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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