My Lord And Savior Is Not A "SISSIFIED NEEDY JESUS", But HE is a GOD of WRATH!!

[Willie T]

Did this clear things up for you?

Not really. Your words are commendable, and your experience is undoubtedly sincere. But, I still cannot see how someone else's identical understanding and experience is understood by you as wrong if they feel Calvin was way off base.

 

[Willie T]

You are twisting words.

No, he isn't. You actually did indicate that you pray in contradiction to the wishes of God that He laid down eons before "those unregenerate ones" were even living. You seem to be saying He created them to deliberately be fodder for Hell, yet you are also praying that God's supposed will is not done.
Even Jesus prayed that only God's will be done, despite his own wishes of self-preservation to the contrary.

 

[Renniks]

Youse guise have ways of twisting what others say, don't you? If God is not sovereign, why pray for Him to save your loved ones?

God uses means to accomplish His will. Our prayers are one of those means.

Who says God isn't sovereign? But that word doesn't mean what you take it to mean. For example, it doesn't mean God irresistibly chooses some people for salvation. That is why we pray, because praying matters, it changes things, even if we can't understand how. If everything is already set in stone, which is what Calvinism teaches at its core, then nothing really matters. I know that the run of the mill Calvinists in the pew don't really believe that everything is predestined. But when I investigated it thoroughly I found that that was a logical conclusion, and some of the hyper Calvinists are willing to admit it.
There is no motivation to pray in that system. It's fatalism. Whatever will be will be.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Okay, so I believe you all have answered to the best of your ability how it is you know your the elect of God.

In spite of the condescending and disingenuous remark above, what do the Scriptures say about knowing this?

 

[Renniks]

God is in control and is all-controlling, you just can not accept this at this time. If there is one rebel molecule that moves outside His will, then He can not be trusted. Paraphrasing Dr. R.C. Sproul

We don't paint God as evil, your side does. Your side avers the Christ atoned for everybody w/o exceptions sins. They are paid for, yet, in your schema, many who He atoned for will be cast headlong into the lake of fire, which is the second death. For Him to punish the sinners whose sins have been paid for would make Him evil. Yet, you can not accept this truth at this time.

If that was the truth, which it isn't, in your system, the only reason I can't accept it is because God has predestined me not to accept it. So having the whole discussion is totally pointless.
I'm well aware of what Dr Sproul taught.
It's fatalism. And it makes God more like the force in Star wars, with a light and a dark side... then the God of scripture. God is light, in him there is no darkness at all.
He doesn't will evil.

 

[Willie T]

God is in control and is all-controlling, you just can not accept this at this time. If there is one rebel molecule that moves outside His will, then He can not be trusted. Paraphrasing Dr. R.C. Sproul

We don't paint God as evil, your side does. Your side avers the Christ atoned for everybody w/o exceptions sins. They are paid for, yet, in your schema, many who He atoned for will be cast headlong into the lake of fire, which is the second death. For Him to punish the sinners whose sins have been paid for would make Him evil. Yet, you can not accept this truth at this time.

No one is saying God is evil. I, speaking only for myself, say Calvin's expression of God is evil. And, you can decide for yourself what following that belief is.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

If that was the truth, which it isn't, in your system, the only reason I can't accept it is because God has predestined me not to accept it. So having the whole discussion is totally pointless.
I'm well aware of what Dr Sproul taught.
It's fatalism. And it makes God more like the force in Star wars, with a light and a dark side... then the God of scripture. God is light, in him there is no darkness at all.
He doesn't will evil.

You don't know what fatalism is at all. Fatalism is an impersonal force. God's will and purpose is what is taking place here; it is described perfectly in Ephesians 1.

That, and you're calling God darkness since he predestines and elects. It appears you're walking in darkness yourself as you continue to show hatred for the God of Scripture who does these very things. You are hostile in your mind toward him; note Romans 8:7-8; Colossians 1:21; Romans 9:20. There is still 2 Peter 3:9 and the hope you will be brought to repentance.

 

[Renniks]

That, and you're calling God darkness since he predestines and elects.

God doesn't irresistibly predestine anyone.
You just misunderstand the scriptures.

 

[reformed1689]

No, he isn't. You actually did indicate that you pray in contradiction to the wishes of God that He laid down eons before "those unregenerate ones" were even living. You seem to be saying He created them to deliberately be fodder for Hell, yet you are also praying that God's supposed will is not done.
Even Jesus prayed that only God's will be done, despite his own wishes of self-preservation to the contrary.

Nope, we don't know what the will of God is. We do not know who will or will not be saved. Paul also cried over the lost saying he would gladly take their place.

And yes, God does have some people destined for destruction. Romans 9 makes that clear.

But I have never said I prayed actively and consciously against God's will. You guys are projecting that on me.

 

[reformed1689]

Not really. Your words are commendable, and your experience is undoubtedly sincere. But, I still cannot see how someone else's identical understanding and experience is understood by you as wrong if they feel Calvin was way off base.

Your mistake is that you seem to think our doctrine comes from Calvin.

 

[reformed1689]

God doesn't irresistibly predestine anyone.
You just misunderstand the scriptures.

Then please explain the entire book of Romans. Or how about the Gospel of John?

 

[Giuliano]

We follow the Word of God.

I'll take that as a no. You have ideas only. You read about angels but have never seen one. Your teachers have never seen one, and their teachers never have. I'd call that the blind leading the blind.

 

[Pisteuo]

Did this clear things up for you?

Not sure who you were replying to . But yes I think I see what you are saying. Thanks. And I mostly agree with what you are saying if you are saying that we walk by faith, yet still receive touches from God along our way from time to time. And these true testimonies can and should be told as they work to edifying of the Church.

 

[Giuliano]

You are twisting words.

That is not an answer to the questions. If you can't answer me, maybe you need to struggle with God about it. I assure you of one thing: If you love people, God loves them more than you. If you would not want them to burn in hell, you can be sure God did not create them to burn there.

 

[Giuliano]

No, he isn't. You actually did indicate that you pray in contradiction to the wishes of God that He laid down eons before "those unregenerate ones" were even living. You seem to be saying He created them to deliberately be fodder for Hell, yet you are also praying that God's supposed will is not done.
Even Jesus prayed that only God's will be done, despite his own wishes of self-preservation to the contrary.

It is an odd situation, isn't it?

 

[reformed1689]

That is not an answer to the questions. If you can't answer me, maybe you need to struggle with God about it. I assure you of one thing: If you love people, God loves them more than you. If you would not want them to burn in hell, you can be sure God did not create them to burn there.

Again, twisting words and ideas.

 

[Giuliano]

Nope, we don't know what the will of God is. We do not know who will or will not be saved. Paul also cried over the lost saying he would gladly take their place.

And yes, God does have some people destined for destruction. Romans 9 makes that clear.

I just reread it. I don't see that idea taught in Romans 9.

But I have never said I prayed actively and consciously against God's will. You guys are projecting that on me.

If you are praying for sinners predestined to damnation to be saved, you would be praying against God's will. That is a logical conclusion, not a projection.

 

[Giuliano]

Again, twisting words and ideas.

Still dodging? Do not try to be of two minds -- that is being double-minded. The human mind can drive itself crazy trying to hold contradictory beliefs.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

[reformed1689]

I just reread it. I don't see that idea taught in Romans 9.

Then you are just being dishonest.

 

[reformed1689]

Still dodging? Do not try to be of two minds -- that is being double-minded. The human mind can drive itself crazy trying to hold contradictory beliefs.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

What do you think I am avoiding? Stop bearing false witness.