quietthinker
Well-Known Member
he did?We don't know that He was brief and He certainly inspired the Apostles to present the BHS as central to evangelism.
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he did?We don't know that He was brief and He certainly inspired the Apostles to present the BHS as central to evangelism.
he did?
yeah, I know it.....yet the question still stands.....did he?Sure... I assume you know your bible so I shouldn't have to quote verses.
yeah, I know it.....yet the question still stands.....did he?
Jesus didn't say much....as in volume of words.Mark 16:
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Jesus didn't say much....as in volume of words.
What're you trying to say Carl?Are you sure?
John 21
24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they *were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself *would not contain the books that *would be written.
What're you trying to say Carl?
I thought we were talking about the direct recorded words of Jesus.
Reading the last few posts, I felt compelled to share this from John chapter 3. Jesus does not mention exactly the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", but what he tells Nicodemus, is the result of it I think.
John 3:1-8
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
first birth in water,
Hi Carl,Empowering for ministry usually comes later and is receiving a permanent empowering for ministry exactly as Jesus did at His Baptism.
Hi Venksta,Reading the last few posts, I felt compelled to share this from John chapter 3. Jesus does not mention exactly the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", but what he tells Nicodemus, is the result of it I think.
John 3:1-8
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
and yet, all christians of the past and most likely this generation, "sow to the flesh and reap corruption" - Gal 6:8aBaptism in the spirit is not an optional extra for some but an essential empowering for anyone who truely seeks to walk in the purposes of Jesus fruitfully.
The reason for this is that the empowering of the Holy Spirit upon you and the manifestation of what gifts you need to serve effectively where you are planted will follow this important gift of Grace.
I will start with contextualising the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Broadly speaking the Empowering of the Spirit upon God's servants in the old covenant was temporary for a task. Further I don't believe in the OC the saints were indwelled as we are.
So being born again means permanent indwelling, however He can be grieved by our lack of communion with Him and His presence can dissipate. We then need fresh infilling after repentance...
It seems to me that the born again experience is at a time when He gives the Grace to make the decision to be fully surrendered to His Will.
But the BHS experience is in His time - not our decision but His.
Now a critical matter to understand is that JB was given a sign to recognise Messiah.
He baptising in the Jordan and was told to watch out for the ONE on whom the Spirit would come upon and remain upon.
All others would receive a temporary blessing of the presence of the Spirit but Jesus received this permanently.
It should be noted that Jesus was indwelled with the Spirit from birth, but this Baptism in the Spirit that He received as He was coming up out of the water was a permanent empowering upon Him for ministry.
It is important to note that JB was also told the Jesus would Baptise in the Holy Spirit and that what JB saw was in fact the very first occasion on which any human was baptised in the Spirit.
The BHS is not always given by the laying on of hands - many, like myself testify to receiving BHS quite independently.
In scripture when BHS was received at the time of laying on of hands, the apostles must have been hearing from the Spirit and been in sync with God's timing.
That is one of the reasons there has been confusion - leaders laying on hands without really knowing it is God's time for the individual.
Combine this with the insistence that every individual must speak in tongues and you have serious mix of half truth.
I received the Baptism in the Spirit in a church that didnt even believe in it - listening to a sermon in a Brethren Church I suddenly saw the chasm between His Holiness and my pitiful state. I was in tears for about an hour, in deep repentance, and it seemed as if my mind was being pulled apart and put back together. I had no idea what was happening. The next day Jesus made it clear that I had been baptised in the Spirit.
He is a good God with good gifts - we don't need a hand in it to help Him along.
So how do we know we have been blessed this way...
There is a fresh and permanent enabling to fulfil what we are called to do and gifts are manifest to accomplish this.
How do we get it ?
Ask and you shall receive - but in His time.
Given the challenge in this age to stand for Jesus in a hostile and deceptive world, you certainly need it.
'Seeing' what is going on spiritually is critical.
I used to help run an open home and as soon as a trouble maker stepped onto the property day or night He would alert me in the Spirit.
It is a 'plateau' experience - your whole perception of spiritual matters will permanently change.
Like Elijah's servant being shown the army in the spirit realm.
However the control of such gifts is in His hands not ours, He turns them on when needed.
If you receive a gift, always ask for wisdom in its use and give it back to Him.
So I pray according to "if we ask anything according to His Will He hears us and if we know he hears us we know that He grants the request that we ask"
So is it Gods will for you to be empowered for ministry ?
Then ask with certain confidence.
Questions welcome.
"They shall promise liberty but are the servants of corruption . . " - II Peter 2:19Thanks for the responses - something to pray about...
There are a variety of truth's intersecting and differences in definition.
However the object of the exercise is effective ministry empowered and directed by Him.
"They shall promise liberty but are the servants of corruption . . " - II Peter 2:19
the way to what?My style is to encourage folks to obedience by walking in 'the Way' - speaking about the good things He does - rejoicing and celebrating His goodness.
In John 17 we read that the world may know about His Glory from the way believers relate !!!
So I am not personally heavy on bringing judgement and condemnation. I think the Love of Jesus should be the primary message.
Of course this refers to the mother's "water breaking" right before giving birth to a new born babe, and not water baptism right?
There is and has been this "struggle for existence" between "women baring children" (let's call these wheat shall we?) and those "children of disobedience" (let's refer to these as tares, eh?) for the "control" of which direction/s and how much if any "fruit/works/efforts of faith" that any one of us produces.
These same "children of disobedience" petitioned Enoch en masse for God to listen to them via Enoch. To which they were refused a "hearing." (not actually refused, rather told to wait!)
But, being the "children of disobedience" (tares) that they are (yes?....still) did not and does not deter them from pleading their collective cause/s through every man, woman, and child "born of water."
1 Peter 2:
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood (order of Melchizedek anyone?), to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.