Nation born in a day in 1948?

[post]

What is it you think Hab says? And as for 'pelageian', sorry that means nothing to me.

Habakkuk 1:5-6
Look among the nations and watch— Be utterly astounded! For [I will] work a work in your days [Which] you would not believe, though it were told [you.] For indeed I am raising up the Chaldeans, A bitter and hasty nation Which marches through the breadth of the earth, To possess dwelling places [that are] not theirs.

God doesn't just "allow" nations.
He raises them up. He appoints them. He upholds them and He brings them low. There is no power or authority on earth except from God.

So now you have three witnesses!
Got any cake?

 

[dad]

That is during the 6th seal in the tribulation:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That is what I thought also.

 

[dad]

Habakkuk 1:5-6
Look among the nations and watch— Be utterly astounded! For [I will] work a work in your days [Which] you would not believe, though it were told [you.] For indeed I am raising up the Chaldeans, A bitter and hasty nation Which marches through the breadth of the earth, To possess dwelling places [that are] not theirs.

God doesn't just "allow" nations.
He raises them up. He appoints them. He upholds them and He brings them low. There is no power or authority on earth except from God.

So now you have three witnesses!
Got any cake?

Yes and He also raised up Babylon, and Rome etc for judging Israel. That does not mean He comforted those nations and that they were not wicked also. It just means that God sort of recycles or disposes of the crap as needed! If they will not obey, He will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation. He will never utterly destroy His children and that includes believing people of Israel, and even the nation of Israel when they finally say uncle and believe. They will never go on the crap pile like Rome and Greece etc.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Scripture clearly teaches that the eternal lake of fire will be "Outside The Gates" of New Jerusalem

Revelation 22:14-15KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Isaiah 66:22-24KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jermiah 31:40KJV
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Once again your lack of understanding the original words used is your undoing! Yes the lake of fire is outside of the eternal bliss of heaven. But how far is unknown. Without means away from

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Didn’t I already show you from Hebrews that the Jeremiah 31 new covenant started with the death of Jesus? Or was that someone else?

No the Old Covenant ended with the shed blood of Jesus. But you need to show the provisions of the New covenant gone into effect:

Jeremiah 31:31-33
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


The covenant requires all of Israel and Judah participate- that has not happened yet! No gentiles are mentioned in the New Covenant as written in Scripture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We all know that. Why mention something with no bearing on the issue here? The issue is whether God gathered them there or not. Of course they will be there in the end.

You keep saying God had nothing to do with the start of the regathering in 1948, but other than your own repugnance of violence- have not proven your hypothesis God has nothing to do with the ingathering taking place since 1948.

 

[dad]

You keep saying God had nothing to do with the start of the regathering in 1948, but other than your own repugnance of violence- have not proven your hypothesis God has nothing to do with the ingathering taking place since 1948.

If you claim some nation, whether Vietnam, or France or Israel was somehow miraculously and specially gathered to some place by God in accordance with prophesy in the bible, then you must post the Scriptures. Posting the same historical passages as if they must specially apply to the modern age is not supporting your claim. The only passages I see where God gathers and protects them are future, and after they repent and He comes.
Oh, and I did not say God had nothing to do with any nation existing, including secular Israel. He has plenty to do with it all. That does not mean that every declaration of nationhood fulfills bible prophesy specifically.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Israel was not reborn. Israel simply gathered themselves into a secular nation by force of their own arm.

You really think so? No one ever said Israel was spiritually reborn. Physically yes! YOu tell me how force of arm got the UN to declare Israel a nation by one vote?

You tell me why the Arabs told the Arabs in the land to leave because there were going to wipe the Jews out!
You tell me how the Jews with only 2 cannons, no tanks, no war planes, and WW 1 carbines could defeat 5 Arab armies with cannons, tanks, war planes and modern firearms if God wasn't orchestrating things.
YOu tell me how the Jews living in the land could defeat 5 separate Armies attacking in three different directions and the invading armies outnumbered the Jewish people living in the land by a 20-1 ratio, if God wasn't involved. Do you think it was all just blind luck or dumb chance?


BTW Israel is far from a secular nation! It has many secular parts, but any visit to the wailing wall and counting the number of active Christian churches and Jewish synagogues tells anyone with eyes there is a very very strong religious core to Israel.

That was probably history as the commentator I posted said.

Ah yes! I forgot. Your allegorical reinterprting commentator thinks that MAYBE it was fulfilled by the Babylonian return. And He proves HIS idea by changing the meaning of Scripture and bends it to fit His idea! Do you regularly go to that site or just found it to post a commentator?

Right, and the point was that not all chapters with prophesy are in chronological order. If a chapter flashes back to an event after having already spoken about the future that is fine.

I am glad you believe that! For the Olivet discourse is loaded that way!

In other words 'Go get em Russia and allies, they are there and think they are safe'. So?

The whole point is that this invasion takes place in the latter days, shows Israel is back in the land, it has to happen at least 10 1/2 years before the Lord returns (for the reason I showed you) and that god protects the people. this is a pretribulational invasion and god destroys the armies which cause a revival in Israel as well as the world. You can't have people in Israel come to believe in God unless they are in the land in unbelief now can you?

 

[dad]

You really think so? No one ever said Israel was spiritually reborn. Physically yes! YOu tell me how force of arm got the UN to declare Israel a nation by one vote?

Close votes are not something unique.

You tell me why the Arabs told the Arabs in the land to leave because there were going to wipe the Jews out!

Hatred between peoples is not all that rare either.

You tell me how the Jews with only 2 cannons, no tanks, no war planes, and WW 1 carbines could defeat 5 Arab armies with cannons, tanks, war planes and modern firearms if God wasn't orchestrating things.

There may have been some supernatural influences. That does not have to mean good ones. Or there may have been other factors we do not know about. Such as strategy. "Egyptian forces were caught by surprise, and nearly the entire Egyptian Air Force was destroyed with few Israeli losses.."
"Simultaneously, Israeli forces launched a ground offensive into the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula, which again caught the Egyptians by surprise"
"Jordan had entered into a defence pact with Egypt a week before the war began; the agreement envisaged that in the event of a war, Jordan would not take an offensive role, but would attempt to tie down Israeli forces to prevent them from making territorial gains.[30] About an hour after the initial Israeli air attack, the Egyptian commander of the Jordanian military received orders from Cairo to mount attacks against Israel;"
"The sweeping Israeli success was the result of a well-prepared and enacted strategy combined with the poor military and political leadership and strategy of the Arab coalition" -wiki

BTW Israel is far from a secular nation! It has many secular parts, but any visit to the wailing wall and counting the number of active Christian churches and Jewish synagogues tells anyone with eyes there is a very very strong religious core to Israel.

It is a state that does not accept Jesus. That means it is in unbelief. Looking at one site it lists the Christian population in Israel as about 2%.

Ah yes! I forgot. Your allegorical reinterprting commentator thinks that MAYBE it was fulfilled by the Babylonian return. And He proves HIS idea by changing the meaning of Scripture and bends it to fit His idea! Do you regularly go to that site or just found it to post a commentator?

Do you have something against bible scholars? Did you think we had to adopt your venerable opinion even though supported by nothing and not fitting the rest of the bible?

I am glad you believe that! For the Olivet discourse is loaded that way!


The whole point is that this invasion takes place in the latter days, shows Israel is back in the land, it has to happen at least 10 1/2 years before the Lord returns (for the reason I showed you) and that god protects the people. this is a pretribulational invasion and god destroys the armies which cause a revival in Israel as well as the world. You can't have people in Israel come to believe in God unless they are in the land in unbelief now can you?

Yes as stated often God knew they would be there. As for your 101/2 year thing no idea what you are talking about. We can say Israel does not repent after the invasion attempt though. They do not get saved till the end of all that.

 

[post]

Yes and He also raised up Babylon, and Rome etc for judging Israel. That does not mean He comforted those nations and that they were not wicked also. It just means that God sort of recycles or disposes of the crap as needed! If they will not obey, He will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation. He will never utterly destroy His children and that includes believing people of Israel, and even the nation of Israel when they finally say uncle and believe. They will never go on the crap pile like Rome and Greece etc.

so He raises up both the nations we think of as 'good' and the nations we think of as 'evil' - and uses both for His own purposes, which have nothing to do with humans conception of 'good from evil' but to do with God's thoughts.
that's a lesson from Habakkuk.

any nation and any authority or power that is, is ordained by God. any season or time that is, is set by God.
that's a lesson from Daniel & Romans.

so:
there is a nation of Israel today, in some of the land of their covenant - even in the heart of the land of that covenant. they are the people God chose out of all people, not because of their merit, but because He chose them. there wasn't one, for almost 2,000 years, and now there is.
much prophecy of the end of the time of the Gentiles presumes there is a nation of Israel in the land of their covenant.
that wasn't possible before 1948.
there is no way under heaven that the existence of the modern nation of Israel is a mere coincidence or meaningless or only a conspiratorial subterfuge of men.
God appoints the times and the authorities, according to His will.

 

[post]

Oh, and I did not say God had nothing to do with any nation existing, including secular Israel. He has plenty to do with it all.

thank you; that's my point.
=]

That does not mean that every declaration of nationhood fulfills bible prophesy specifically.

of course not. God didn't tell us all things in prophesy.
but we're talking not talking about every nation, but about God's chosen people.
i agree this clearly isn't the full restoration of Israel, but i think we ought to be concentrating on searching the scripture and the Spirit for what this is, rather than on denying its significance
;]

 

[Curtis]

No the Old Covenant ended with the shed blood of Jesus. But you need to show the provisions of the New covenant gone into effect:

Jeremiah 31:31-33
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


The covenant requires all of Israel and Judah participate- that has not happened yet! No gentiles are mentioned in the New Covenant as written in Scripture.

Hebrews 8 states Jesus is mediating, not will mediate, the new covenant, and in verses 8-10 shows that covenant is the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the House of Israel:


Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
(Quote from Jeremiah 31)

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Hebrews 9 states that the new covenant Jesus mediates is His last will and Testament, that took effect at His death, as all last will and Testaments do:


Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.


Notice that “the called”obtain the promised inheritance from the last will and Testament that took effect at His death, verse 9:15


God always has a law, and the new covenant is a legal document that gives the called an inheritance - as in inheriting eternal life.


Hebrews 10 confirms that the once for all time sacrificial offering of Himself established the Jeremiah 31 new covenant where God puts His laws in the hearts and minds of those being sanctified:


Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.


Currently per Romans 11 only a remnant of the elect nation of Israel believes in Jesus and is in their own new covenant God has made with the House of Israel and thus have Gods indwelling Holy Spirit within them, which is how Gods laws are written in their hearts, and the rest are blinded until the deliverer comes out of Zion.


Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,


Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;


Gentiles as wild Olive branches are grafted onto the Olive tree of Israel, amid the natural branches, and thus by faith gentiles enter into the new covenant with the House of Israel.


Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

 

[dad]

so:
there is a nation of Israel today, in some of the land of their covenant - even in the heart of the land of that covenant. they are the people God chose out of all people, not because of their merit, but because He chose them. there wasn't one, for almost 2,000 years, and now there is.
much prophecy of the end of the time of the Gentiles presumes there is a nation of Israel in the land of their covenant.
that wasn't possible before 1948.
there is no way under heaven that the existence of the modern nation of Israel is a mere coincidence or meaningless or only a conspiratorial subterfuge of men.
God appoints the times and the authorities, according to His will.

Just because God knows the future does not make it coincidence. He knew they would gather in a nation in the end. When they finally get saved in the end, then as many of the chosen people that choose Jesus will be saved. That will be the chosen people and nation and Israel. There will be no other. Those will be regathered to the land and comforted and protected. There is no chosen people other than those who choose Jesus! They WERE the chosen people in the past. They rejected their messiah and so are not chosen today. They chose to gather themselves into a nation. In the sense that God intends to keep His promises to Abraham and the prophets we can think of Israel (the remnant) as the chosen people. They don't get brownie points just for being born in a secular nation, sorry. At least that is my understanding as of today.

 

[dad]

thank you; that's my point.
=]



of course not. God didn't tell us all things in prophesy.
but we're talking not talking about every nation, but about God's chosen people.
i agree this clearly isn't the full restoration of Israel, but i think we ought to be concentrating on searching the scripture and the Spirit for what this is, rather than on denying its significance
;]

They were chosen but rejected Him. Those who choose Him in the end are going to be the chosen people upon whom all the promises are written for!

 

[post]

They were chosen but rejected Him. Those who choose Him in the end are going to be the chosen people upon whom all the promises are written for!

we don't 'replace' them. Israel is Israel, even if not all Israel is.
it's they who will see Him Whom they pierced & mourn.
it's they who are made jealous by His inclusion of a people who were not a people.

have a look at Romans 11 again, slowly
=]

 

[dad]

we don't 'replace' them. Israel is Israel, even if not all Israel is.
it's they who will see Him Whom they pierced & mourn.
it's they who are made jealous by His inclusion of a people who were not a people.

have a look at Romans 11 again, slowly
=]

No we do not replace the remnant of Israel, the ones who get saved. Those are saved Jews that will comprise what is Israel. I do not think modern, current Israel will see Him or mourn. Only the ones left alive who see Him and realize how wrong they have been and get saved will mourn and be sorry. The rest of the nation was already killed by this time and we have just the remnant. They will not be cast off.

 

[Curtis]

They were chosen but rejected Him. Those who choose Him in the end are going to be the chosen people upon whom all the promises are written for!

All Israel alive to see the deliverer come out of Zion, will be saved, per Romans 11 - at that time Jacob becomes Godly.

This will be after His return to Mount Olive in Zechariah 14:5 and saves Jerusalem from total destruction by the attacking hordes. All Israel sees Him coming in the clouds, Revelation 1:7, see Him come as the deliverer of Zion, and will realize He’s their true Messiah, believe, and be saved.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[dad]

All Israel alive to see the deliverer come out of Zion, will be saved, per Romans 11 - at that time Jacob becomes Godly.

This will be after His return to Mount Olive in Zechariah 14:5 and saves Jerusalem from total destruction by the attacking hordes. All Israel sees Him coming in the clouds, Revelation 1:7, see Him come as the deliverer of Zion, and will realize He’s their true Messiah, believe, and be saved.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I agree. Then He gathers them from all over and restores them to the land. That is why I do not see 1948 as a time when God restored them and brought them back.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hebrews 8 states Jesus is mediating, not will mediate, the new covenant, and in verses 8-10 shows that covenant is the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the House of Israel:


Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
(Quote from Jeremiah 31)

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Hebrews 9 states that the new covenant Jesus mediates is His last will and Testament, that took effect at His death, as all last will and Testaments do:


Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.


Notice that “the called”obtain the promised inheritance from the last will and Testament that took effect at His death, verse 9:15


God always has a law, and the new covenant is a legal document that gives the called an inheritance - as in inheriting eternal life.


Hebrews 10 confirms that the once for all time sacrificial offering of Himself established the Jeremiah 31 new covenant where God puts His laws in the hearts and minds of those being sanctified:


Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.


Currently per Romans 11 only a remnant of the elect nation of Israel believes in Jesus and is in their own new covenant God has made with the House of Israel and thus have Gods indwelling Holy Spirit within them, which is how Gods laws are written in their hearts, and the rest are blinded until the deliverer comes out of Zion.


Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,


Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;


Gentiles as wild Olive branches are grafted onto the Olive tree of Israel, amid the natural branches, and thus by faith gentiles enter into the new covenant with the House of Israel.


Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

YOu err like others do! Mediating means the entire covenant is not settled and gone into effect.

and sorry but the testament Jesus purchased in His blood is far stronger than a mere will.

but I will ask you the same question I do of others. If you believe the New Testament is in effect then please show the fulfilments of its components.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Verse 31-- where are gentiles mentioned here?
Verse 32 Once the Old Covenant was made with the nation of Israel- no gentile nations involved and only thos gentiles living in Israel were subject
Verse 33: Is all Israel saved? . Is Israel gods people once again as prophesied?
verse 34: do all Jews from the least to the greatest now know the Lord? That is what will happen when the New Covenant goes in to effect.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you claim some nation, whether Vietnam, or France or Israel was somehow miraculously and specially gathered to some place by God in accordance with prophesy in the bible, then you must post the Scriptures. Posting the same historical passages as if they must specially apply to the modern age is not supporting your claim. The only passages I see where God gathers and protects them are future, and after they repent and He comes.
Oh, and I did not say God had nothing to do with any nation existing, including secular Israel. He has plenty to do with it all. That does not mean that every declaration of nationhood fulfills bible prophesy specifically.

Well then you have another regathering to fulfill the bible so they can be scattered again via Mt. 24 and REv. 13.

And you have utterly failed to prove the return from Babylon fulfilled Ez. 20 in any way shape or form. Neither did the website you posted. So all you have is an opinion, and yet you challenge me with citing bible when the 1948 start of the ingathering fulfills Ez. 38 for the people brought back and the Ez. 20 Passage of God gatheirng them from the globe to pass them under the rod of His judgment.

Once again the return from Babylon was in faith and not with gods fury poured out! Israel was already in the bond of the old covenant and the new had not happenmed yet- so you are stuck as well.

Sorry but just "probably" fulfills the bible just doesn't cut it. Many would be Messiahs kind of fulfilled some prophecies but not all so we write them off. Just in case you haven't been a believer long enough yet- god does not "probabvly " fulfill prophecy- He fulfills it!

for your last line? adding gentile nations just muddies the waters. We are not talking any nation- but a prophesied people and a prophesied land with very specific prophecies showing god would scatter them globally, stop calling them His people for a time for the ingathering of the gentiles as a people for His name, and then in the latter days a regathering. 1948 is not a probably but a definitely!