Nation born in a day in 1948?

[Ronald Nolette]

If God did not allow various nations to exist they would not exist. It is one thing to say God has 'nothing' to do with it, and another thing to claim that God is defending militarily a nation, and has fulfilled the regathering prophesies. I can see you are tossing around weird accusation now and getting desperate.

Well God has defended Israel many many times. You believe or alluded to Israel defeating 5 armies attacking it that outnumbered their entire population 20-1 and outgunning them over 20-1 as possibly demonic.

As you also reject that God regathers them once in his anger and once to bring them into the millenial kingdom, you are blinded by your own philosophy.

You have to remember that when Matthew 24 and REv. 12 take place at the midpoint of the tribulation, Israel had already been regathered as a nation. They had already endured the Russian alliance invasion of Ezekiel 37-38, and they also will have rebuilt the temple so the antichrist can enter the holy of holies declaring himself God. But to you this regathering of Israel that must take place and bring a revival to Israel and the gentile nations, something that is not spoken of in gods word! I am always amazed at how allegorists will rewrite gods word to fit their agendas instead of rewriting their agenda to fit Gods Word.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have said many times that God knew they would be there. That does not mean all of them! It means there will be a nation called Israel in that place. He even told them to gather themselves. The thread is about claims some make that GOD gathered them already.

Except you don't accept God regatheirng them when He has regathered them as Ezekiel 20 has shown-

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

vse.34 fits 1948- present.
vse. 35 fits 1948. the land of Israel was the wilderness of the peoples. It was barren and desolate like vse 35 compares it to. Israel is the one who recaptured the desert and makes it bloom like a rose.
vse.37 IMO that has yet to occur or could be occurring, but that is opinion not fact.
vse 38 this will occur in the last 7 years when 2/3 of all Jews will die and the one 1/3 left will call on Jesus as Messiah.

Sorry but the exactness of this prophecy is far better than the maybes you have cited from your commentators that this refers to the return from Bab ylon! This is countries not one nation- Babylon.

BTW you still have not apologized for lying about my words. last chance before we are done because of your dishonesty.

 

[dad]

No I am referencing the only time Israel was regathered from the nbationS they were scattered to. If you were not so unwilling to see my words as written you wouldknoiw trhat I know fury does not always refer to teh end times.

You choose to interpret a passage in Eze that commentators see as history to mean that it was about 1948. You could not support that and had no other bible prophesies that say God would gather them there before He returned.

"I lifted up mine hand also to them in the wilderness,.... Swore unto them, as in Ezekiel 20:5;

that I would scatter them among the Heathen, and disperse them through the countries; after they came to be settled in the land of Canaan, they sinning against the Lord; which was fulfilled in the times of the Babylonish captivity, and in their destruction by the Romans; but was threatened and foretold while they were in the wilderness, Leviticus 26:33; with this compare Psalms 106:26."
Ezekiel 20 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

 

[dad]

Well God has defended Israel many many times. You believe or alluded to Israel defeating 5 armies attacking it that outnumbered their entire population 20-1 and outgunning them over 20-1 as possibly demonic.

None of those times were after He withered the fig tree, and they killed their Messiah. When God was dealing with Israel He did guide them and correct them and etc. Since they killed Jesus, their history was basically paused as having a relationship with God. They are on their own. Their history starts up again in the last week of Daniel. In that time of Jacob's trouble we will again see angels and miracles and God dealing with the Jewish people. It is after this, when they finally believe, that He returns and gathers the remnant back to the land. No relation to them gathering themselves in 1948.

As you also reject that God regathers them once in his anger and once to bring them into the millenial kingdom, you are blinded by your own philosophy.

Chapter and verse? The only passage you cited if I recall was one dealing with history, that contained the word fury.

You have to remember that when Matthew 24 and REv. 12 take place at the midpoint of the tribulation, Israel had already been regathered as a nation.

No one questions that they gathered themselves there.

They had already endured the Russian alliance invasion of Ezekiel 37-38, and they also will have rebuilt the temple so the antichrist can enter the holy of holies declaring himself God. But to you this regathering of Israel that must take place and bring a revival to Israel and the gentile nations, something that is not spoken of in gods word! I am always amazed at how allegorists will rewrite gods word to fit their agendas instead of rewriting their agenda to fit Gods Word.

No. They gather themselves before that final time. God gathers the remnant when they repent after that final time.

 

[dad]

BTW you still have not apologized for lying about my words. last chance before we are done because of your dishonesty.

Show me the quote. No idea what you are talking about.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You choose to interpret a passage in Eze that commentators see as history to mean that it was about 1948. You could not support that and had no other bible prophesies that say God would gather them there before He returned.

"I lifted up mine hand also to them in the wilderness,.... Swore unto them, as in Ezekiel 20:5;

that I would scatter them among the Heathen, and disperse them through the countries; after they came to be settled in the land of Canaan, they sinning against the Lord; which was fulfilled in the times of the Babylonish captivity, and in their destruction by the Romans; but was threatened and foretold while they were in the wilderness, Leviticus 26:33; with this compare Psalms 106:26."
Ezekiel 20 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

You have cited one commentator who gave it a possibly referring to!

YOu think gill is smarter because he is older and an allegorist covenant theologian? YOu obviously do not know the meaning of scatter and NATIONS.

The Babylonian captivity was an exile to one nation! they were not "scattered" but led captive to Babylon. From 66-70 Ad when Rome besieged and destroyed jerusalem and then the Bar-Kochba rebellion- Israel was truly scattered into many7 nations! this time fulfilled the OT prophecies and the Luke portion of the Olivet discourse. 1948 fuflills in part Ez. 20.

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

Verse 33 did not happen in the return from Babylon- Ezra and Nehemiah shows they were repentant!
verse 34 Israel returned from Babylon- not many nations- IN 1948 Israel started a return from 120 countries!
verse 35- Israel is the wilderness of the nations. The fact that there are 10,000+ Messianic Jewish groups in Israel shows God has been pleading with Israel!

And the fact god has caused the heathens to attack Israel 5 times since their rebirth- shows God is calling them back inHis anger (He has used heathen nations many times to chastise Israel)

teh fact that Israel has restored ancient Hebrew as a language again, restored the shekel and many other prophecies that they would do shows 1948 is the start of fulfilment of prophecy that will continue until the last three days of the tribulation, when the veil is removed, Israel will finally recognize Jesus is Messiah, will pray and be saved and cry "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" and thus cause Jesus to return as He said!

this is the bible as written and verified in fact, not a reinterpretation of history or the bible to suit somebodies allegorist agenda!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You choose to interpret a passage in Eze that commentators see as history to mean that it was about 1948. You could not support that and had no other bible prophesies that say God would gather them there before He returned.

"I lifted up mine hand also to them in the wilderness,.... Swore unto them, as in Ezekiel 20:5;

that I would scatter them among the Heathen, and disperse them through the countries; after they came to be settled in the land of Canaan, they sinning against the Lord; which was fulfilled in the times of the Babylonish captivity, and in their destruction by the Romans; but was threatened and foretold while they were in the wilderness, Leviticus 26:33; with this compare Psalms 106:26."
Ezekiel 20 - John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Just to let you know, I read this commentary and the commentator does know history. Jews were not rounded up from many nations to be brought in to the babylonian captivity. If there were any at all , there were very very very few jews who were living outside of the promised land when Nabonidus first attacked Israel! They did not flee to other lands and were not rounded up by the Babylonians and taken to babylon. This is a lie and I noticed that the commentator did not provide a whit of evidence to support this claim.

 

[dad]

You have cited one commentator who gave it a possibly referring to!

YOu think gill is smarter because he is older and an allegorist covenant theologian? YOu obviously do not know the meaning of scatter and NATIONS.

There can be several meanings, and not only the total worldwide scatter thing you seem to prefer in the time you impose.

The Babylonian captivity was an exile to one nation! they were not "scattered" but led captive to Babylon. From 66-70 Ad when Rome besieged and destroyed jerusalem and then the Bar-Kochba rebellion- Israel was truly scattered into many7 nations! this time fulfilled the OT prophecies and the Luke portion of the Olivet discourse. 1948 fuflills in part Ez. 20.

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

Verse 33 did not happen in the return from Babylon- Ezra and Nehemiah shows they were repentant!

At that time, the ones (few) that returned to the land were sincere. In verse 33 it mentions when He will rule over them. That is 'when my fury is poured out' If this is about the Tribulation period that is when it ends! The vials are poured out, ending it. Not 1948

I also see that in verse 31 it says
Ezekiel 20:31
For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord God , I will not be enquired of by you.

So this is about the time when they did that. Do you think they also did this in 1948?

verse 34 Israel returned from Babylon- not many nations- IN 1948 Israel started a return from 120 countries!
verse 35- Israel is the wilderness of the nations. The fact that there are 10,000+ Messianic Jewish groups in Israel shows God has been pleading with Israel!

Verse 33 just said this was when the wrath was pored out. That never happened yet and certainly not in 1948. In verse 34, to emphazise and make it perfectly clear AGAIN he spells out when. -when His fury is done. Poured out. That is how it must be applied when we look at this as future prophesy. Now some commentaries seem to place this in the past.

"
Verse 34
(34) Bring you out from the people.—This and the parallel clause, “gather you out of the countries,” cannot refer to the restoration of the people to their land, both because it is an avenging act, “with fury poured out”; and also because its object is said in the next verse to be to bring them into the wilderness. It must therefore refer to the Divine dealings with the people in their dispersion. He will separate them from other people; He will not allow them, as they proposed (Ezekiel 20:32), to “be as the heathen;” but will bring them out and gather them as a distinct race and spiritually separated from them all, to be dealt with as His own peculiar people."

Ezekiel 20 - Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

EITHER way we look at it, there is no possible fit for 1948. Period.

And the fact god has caused the heathens to attack Israel 5 times since their rebirth- shows God is calling them back in His anger (He has used heathen nations many times to chastise Israel)

False. If the anger is the wrath of God that would be the Tribulation. Why would we place this decades ago?

teh fact that Israel has restored ancient Hebrew as a language again

So what?

, restored the shekel and many other prophecies that they would do shows 1948 is the start of fulfilment of prophecy that will continue until the last three days of the tribulation,

Except you did not show us a verse that says this happens before GOD restores them to the land when He returns. We wait.

when the veil is removed, Israel will finally recognize Jesus is Messiah, will pray and be saved and cry "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" and thus cause Jesus to return as He said!

The few left alive will do that, yes. Then they get restored.

 

[dad]

Just to let you know, I read this commentary and the commentator does know history. Jews were not rounded up from many nations to be brought in to the babylonian captivity. If there were any at all , there were very very very few jews who were living outside of the promised land when Nabonidus first attacked Israel! They did not flee to other lands and were not rounded up by the Babylonians and taken to babylon. This is a lie and I noticed that the commentator did not provide a whit of evidence to support this claim.

"Archaeological studies have revealed that, although Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, other parts of Judah continued to be inhabited during the period of the exile. Most of the exiled did not return to their homeland, instead travelling westward and northward. Many settled in what is now northern Israel, Lebanon and Syria. The Iraqi Jewish, Persian Jewish, Georgian Jewish, and Bukharan Jewish communities are believed to derive their ancestry in large part from these exiles" Babylonian captivity - Wikipedia

There was some scattering in both the captivity era as well as later like the commentary says, apparently.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There can be several meanings, and not only the total worldwide scatter thing you seem to prefer in the time you impose.

That lame excuse needs crutches. God gave an indefinite plural amount of nations. Babylon is one- stop reinterpreting the word!

"Archaeological studies have revealed that, although Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, other parts of Judah continued to be inhabited during the period of the exile. Most of the exiled did not return to their homeland, instead travelling westward and northward. Many settled in what is now northern Israel, Lebanon and Syria. The Iraqi Jewish, Persian Jewish, Georgian Jewish, and Bukharan Jewish communities are believed to derive their ancestry in large part from these exiles" Babylonian captivity - Wikipedia

these are Jews who did not return to Israel from the Babylonian exile. they are the ones that formed many communities in the middle east- therefore they cannot be the ones gathered from many nations when the Babylonian captivity ended! History my dear boy is a witch! They never returned so they CANNOT fulifll Ez. 20 for they never were regathered!

False. If the anger is the wrath of God that would be the Tribulation. Why would we place this decades ago?

Well we use anger and wrath sometimes as synonyms, biblically Gods anger and wrath are two separate things! God uses wrath in only two things- The tribulation period as a time refereence and against sin as an "emotional" outpouring. So His anger and furyt are not teh wrath of the trib, wrath against Israels' sin? Possibly, but I prefer to keep the words as originally written and not using modern synonyms. Teh bible makes a distinction, we should as well.

So what?

that is a prophecy fulfilled since 1948! That's what!

Except you did not show us a verse that says this happens before GOD restores them to the land when He returns. We wait.

I did! YOu just are forced to reject it because it goes against your false teachers opinions.

In order for Ez. 38-39 to happen, Israel has to be regathered in the land! There is nothing in any verses of the Lords return that even remotely imply He will gather Israel in anger and fury! They are regathered as per Matt. 24 as the elect. That means those Jews are in the covenant already. You would have

The few left alive will do that, yes. Then they get restored.

Wrong! The exact moment one gets saved, they are restored! The surviving Jews of the tribulation (the 1/3 of Zech 13:8-9) will enter the millenial kingdom and th enumerous prophecies about Israel and th ekingdom will be fulfilled during the 1,000 years!

to have people getting saved after jesus returns. Don't think that will happen between the time He returns and He establishes His 1,000 year earthly kingdom!

 

[dad]

That lame excuse needs crutches. God gave an indefinite plural amount of nations. Babylon is one- stop reinterpreting the word!




these are Jews who did not return to Israel from the Babylonian exile. they are the ones that formed many communities in the middle east- therefore they cannot be the ones gathered from many nations when the Babylonian captivity ended! History my dear boy is a witch! They never returned so they CANNOT fulifll Ez. 20 for they never were regathered!

"The wilderness of the people - A time of probation will follow, as before in the wilderness of Sin, so in the “wilderness of the nations” among whom they will sojourn (not the Babylonians) “after” that captivity. This period of their probation is not over. The dispersion of the Jews did not cease with the return under Zerubbabel; but in our Saviour’s time they were living as a distinct people in all the principal places in the civilized world; and so they live now. God is yet pleading with them “face to face,” calling them personally to embrace those offers which as a nation they disregarded."
Ezekiel 20 - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

The return in Eze 20 I see mentioned in verse 41.

41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.

42 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.

43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.

44 And ye shall know that I am the Lord when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

Israel today is simply not ruled by people that know Jesus. (God). Period. So we know the time is yet to come.

Well we use anger and wrath sometimes as synonyms, biblically Gods anger and wrath are two separate things! God uses wrath in only two things- The tribulation period as a time refereence and against sin as an "emotional" outpouring. So His anger and furyt are not teh wrath of the trib, wrath against Israels' sin? Possibly, but I prefer to keep the words as originally written and not using modern synonyms. Teh bible makes a distinction, we should as well.

Ezekiel 20:41
I will accept you as fragrant incense when I bring you out from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will show myself holy among you in the sight of the nations.
That is not 1948! The bible more aptly refers (to what most people consider is Jerusalem) in this end time as the city that spiritually is called Sodom and Gomorrah! That is not fragrant! People trying to sell the nation of Israel today as fragrant are like people spraying (as Vernon Magee used to say) perfume on a pile of manure.

In order for Ez. 38-39 to happen, Israel has to be regathered in the land!

For the umpteenth time of course they are prophesied to be there in the end. That is not an issue. That aspect is fantastic fulfilled prophesy.

There is nothing in any verses of the Lords return that even remotely imply He will gather Israel in anger and fury! They are regathered as per Matt. 24 as the elect. That means those Jews are in the covenant already. You would have

Therefore that could not be now. The only covenant is Jesus. There is no other way. The promises He made to them apply only to those of them that will accept Jesus in the end.

Wrong! The exact moment one gets saved, they are restored! The surviving Jews of the tribulation (the 1/3 of Zech 13:8-9) will enter the millenial kingdom and th enumerous prophecies about Israel and th ekingdom will be fulfilled during the 1,000 years!

I meant restored to the land by God. Not spiritually restored the second they get saved. So I am right!

to have people getting saved after jesus returns. Don't think that will happen between the time He returns and He establishes His 1,000 year earthly kingdom!

I never said that, but God does restore them to the land then.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The return in Eze 20 I see mentioned in verse 41.

41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.

42 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.

43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.

44 And ye shall know that I am the Lord when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

Israel today is simply not ruled by people that know Jesus. (God). Period. So we know the time is yet to come.

Yes He will but first He gathers them in anger to judge them, as He has been doing! Just because one doesn't follow immediately after the other doesn't negate. Neither does your impatience. I am sure th ereligiouos crowd also mocked Noah when it took 120 years for judgment to come afterNoah first warned of it.

For the umpteenth time of course they are prophesied to be there in the end. That is not an issue. That aspect is fantastic fulfilled prophesy.

Yet you reject the regathering that has been taking place for 73 years now has anything to do with these prophecies. Truly sad.

Therefore that could not be now. The only covenant is Jesus. There is no other way. The promises He made to them apply only to those of them that will accept Jesus in the end.

Because teh return of the Lord and the regathering of Israel are completely separate events.

Israel today is simply not ruled by people that know Jesus. (God). Period. So we know the time is yet to come.

YOu are finally beginning to get it I think! Nowhere does it say that the Ez. 20 regathering which has to take place before the Russian invasion of Israel in Ez.38-39 is in belief. Ez.. 20 is a regathering for judgment and punishment and purging ! Just because it has been going on for 73 years doesn't negate it.

Ezekiel 20:41
I will accept you as fragrant incense when I bring you out from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will show myself holy among you in the sight of the nations.
That is not 1948! The bible more aptly refers (to what most people consider is Jerusalem) in this end time as the city that spiritually is called Sodom and Gomorrah! That is not fragrant! People trying to sell the nation of Israel today as fragrant are like people spraying (as Vernon Magee used to say) perfume on a pile of manure.

Israel today in the Land are still the covenanted nation God made an eternal covenant with! And for the umpteenth time- teh regathering that began in 1948 is to prepare Israel to be that sweet fragrance. YOu are either a lazy reader, or extremely dense if you haven't seen this in all my posts yet!.

I never said that, but God does restore them to the land then.

so any regatheirng before Jesus return is not a biblical return in your opinion??? I don't know what you believe.

"The wilderness of the people - A time of probation will follow, as before in the wilderness of Sin, so in the “wilderness of the nations” among whom they will sojourn (not the Babylonians) “after” that captivity. This period of their probation is not over. The dispersion of the Jews did not cease with the return under Zerubbabel; but in our Saviour’s time they were living as a distinct people in all the principal places in the civilized world; and so they live now. God is yet pleading with them “face to face,” calling them personally to embrace those offers which as a nation they disregarded."
Ezekiel 20 - Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Well as your version of the bible (studylight.org) has done once again, they have found a commentator who does not back up his allegorical reinterpretations of Gods Word with any evidence. Barnes jumps to untenable conclusions, not based on biblical evidence but mere conjecture. If you wish to believe them over Gods Word and actual empirical history- that is your problem. I notice I give you history and bible and you give allevgorical commentators.

You still haven't apologized for lying about what I have written so I guess we have reached th eend of this discussion. Have the last word, I won't respond unless you lie again.

 

[dad]

Yes He will but first He gathers them in anger to judge them, as He has been doing! Just because one doesn't follow immediately after the other doesn't negate. Neither does your impatience. I am sure th ereligiouos crowd also mocked Noah when it took 120 years for judgment to come afterNoah first warned of it.

No Scriptural support for that claim The history of Eze 20 doesn't cut it as support that God gathered modern Israel, period.

Yet you reject the regathering that has been taking place for 73 years now has anything to do with these prophecies. Truly sad.

False, they are gathering their little selves. No doubt. Just as prophesy says.

Because teh return of the Lord and the regathering of Israel are completely separate events.

The time GOD gathers them is after the return so they are related.

YOu are finally beginning to get it I think! Nowhere does it say that the Ez. 20 regathering which has to take place before the Russian invasion of Israel in Ez.38-39 is in belief. Ez.. 20 is a regathering for judgment and punishment and purging ! Just because it has been going on for 73 years doesn't negate it.

Nor does it say that gathering is done by God.

Israel today in the Land are still the covenanted nation God made an eternal covenant with!

The promise (covenant) was for those who believed. Not for all of them. Those promises will all be fulfilled for the remnant. The nation there today is not the remnant! Period. Only those of them that repent and accept Jesus are eligible for the promised land.

And for the umpteenth time- teh regathering that began in 1948 is to prepare Israel to be that sweet fragrance.

Sorry, that was a stench. War, sorrow,sin rebellion, etc. No obeying and believing and hearts that are right with God.

so any regatheirng before Jesus return is not a biblical return in your opinion???

The death of what was it two thirds of the people is biblical. The fact that they will be there and all nations attack them is biblical. The fact that spiritually they are as Sodom and Gomorrah is biblical. The fact that God will one day gather the remnant that return to Him in biblical. Being 'biblical' does not mean being blessed, it can just mean foretold.

Well as your version of the bible (studylight.org) has done once again, they have found a commentator who does not back up his allegorical reinterpretations of Gods Word with any evidence. Barnes jumps to untenable conclusions, not based on biblical evidence but mere conjecture. If you wish to believe them over Gods Word and actual empirical history- that is your problem. I notice I give you history and bible and you give allevgorical commentators.

Yet you have not disproven anything in the commentary.

You still haven't apologized for lying about what I have written so I guess we have reached th eend of this discussion. Have the last word, I won't respond unless you lie again.

You did not say where the supposed lie was. Try being truthful. Wasn't it you that said they were done a long time ago? What were you waiting for, Christmas?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You did not say where the supposed lie was. Try being truthful. Wasn't it you that said they were done a long time ago? What were you waiting for, Christmas?

Go back and look- it is all right there. the very next post after you intentionally misrepresented my words! I won't do your work for you nor respond until you repent.

 

[dad]

Go back and look- it is all right there. the very next post after you intentionally misrepresented my words! I won't do your work for you nor respond until you repent.

Still here? I think you are making false claims. Either put up or...

 

[Pro_Temb]

Hi, everyone! I am brand new here - found this thread via a search engine. I have a couple of thoughts that may seem superficial at first glance, but in fact I have spent a lifetime developing them. I lay no claim to knowing God's mysterious ways, but I will throw in my two cents on this topic.
First and foremost: Coming from a denomination steeped in theology, I have watched myriad scholars insist they KNOW with 100% certainty that they are right about whatever. They cannot ALL be right. Therefore, pride... hubris... is getting in the way. There ARE things we can KNOW. Most minor points of doctrine and eschatology are NOT among them. Given that, we should all be HUMBLE in our offerings of thought, as Christ has taught us and commanded us. I have been greatly dismayed at some of the vitriol launched toward brothers and sisters in Christ. It is so easy to write what we would never say in person. I have been guilty of the same.

Second, and more to the point of the thread: I find ALL of the information herein fascinating! In recent years, I have struggled to reconcile the different ways of interpreting prophecies with what we have seen in history and are seeing currently. It occurred to me that excellent human story-writers generally don't write simple plot lines but rather sprinkle their works with foreshadowing, symbolism, suspense, and repeated themes. If God is the ultimate story-writer, would not He do those things perfectly? Of course! Is it not then possible that the Preterists are partly right when they read many End Time prophecies and see them align wonderfully with the years leading up to AD 70 and the destruction of Jerusalem - the end of the JEWISH Age, and the ushering in of that of the Gentiles? Ohhh, but all those "signs of the times"! SURELY we are seeing those today! Yes, we do seem to be. And many times in the past, our ancestors have been quite certain THEY were seeing those signs. Could it not be that both are true? That those symbolic prophecies spoke of the end of the Jewish Age but ALSO of the end of all things? Must God confine it to ONE event in history?

Third: When I was young, I scoffed at people trying to explain God's miracles by "natural" means. I saw it as a faithless belittling of God's works. But over time I realized that just because such a thing could happen by "natural" means, doesn't diminish at all God's choice to make it happen at a certain time and place in a miraculous way. Take the crossing of the Red Sea for example. There is (I am told) a "land bridge" at a certain place across the Red Sea. With a strong East wind, the waters can actually be "piled up" such that the land is laid bare and made crossable. If that wind suddenly ceases, the waters rushing back are ferocious and anyone caught on the "bridge" will surely die. (Napoleon is reported to have nearly lost his life in just that way.) If this IS what happened, does that negate God's hand in it? Surely not! What are the odds such a thing would happen JUST when Israel needed it and that the wind would suddenly stop JUST when in needed to in order to kill ALL of the Egyptians? Pretty much zero. Statistically speaking - impossible. Along that line... why should God NOT use nuclear weapons (or other man-made things/problems) to fulfill prophecy? Did He not make all? Did he not use evil kingdoms to do His will throughout the Old Testament? Does His use of such things make Him any less powerful? Of course not! He CAN speak and cause any calamity to happen as He wills it. But He CAN also use delicately interwoven pieces of history and man's will and the general degradation of all Creation -- and how much more intricate, all-knowing, and powerful is that? Pretty cool, really! I can teach by recounting a list of facts and shoulds/shouldn'ts, but how much more intelligent and forceful to teach by the Socratic method. I can fertilize and spray weeds and overseed and aerate my pastures constantly in order produce a good stand of forage. OR, I can use "natural" means to achieve the same result. It's more difficult; it takes much more learning and knowledge to pull it off. Blunt force versus finesse.

 

[Pro_Temb]

Still here? I think you are making false claims. Either put up or...

Are you still here? I am a new member - found this old thread while searching the Internet for the "nation born in a day" topic. If you are willing to read it, I posted on this thread.

Grace and peace!

 

[Pro_Temb]

Go back and look- it is all right there. the very next post after you intentionally misrepresented my words! I won't do your work for you nor respond until you repent.

Are you still here? I am a new member - found this old thread while searching the Internet for the "nation born in a day" topic. If you are willing to read it, I posted on this thread.
Grace and peace!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Is it not then possible that the Preterists are partly right when they read many End Time prophecies and see them align wonderfully with the years leading up to AD 70 and the destruction of Jerusalem - the end of the JEWISH Age, and the ushering in of that of the Gentiles? Ohhh, but all those "signs of the times"! SURELY we are seeing those today! Yes, we do seem to be. And many times in the past, our ancestors have been quite certain THEY were seeing those signs. Could it not be that both are true? That those symbolic prophecies spoke of the end of the Jewish Age but ALSO of the end of all things? Must God confine it to ONE event in history?

Welcome to teh thread!

Teh short answer here is no preterists are wrong.

Teh time of the gentiles started when Nabonidus conquered Jerusalem in 587 B.C. Since that time Jerusalem has been partly or fully trodden down by the gentiles.

Israel was reborn in a day on May 14, 1948 in fulfilment of prophecy. god has been regathering Israel back to her land since. And as prophecied in several places, it is a regathering in unbelief so that god will purge the unbeliever and rebel out of teh people and save teh remnant.

 

[Pro_Temb]

I like your post and agree, even though we possibly disagree on my futurist understanding of the book of Revelation (Revelation chapters 4 onward).

Naturally, as a futurist I do not believe that the temple and the holy city in Revelation 11:1-2 is referring to a physical temple in Jerusalem or to Jerusalem on earth, but to the Tabernacle of God and the people of God. Here are my Biblical reasons:

The Revelation calls the New Jerusalem the holy city three times (Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; Revelation 22:19), so if Revelation 11:2 is an exception, it would be really odd - because that would mean that the Jerusalem on earth would be called both "the holy city" and "Sodom and Egypt" in one and the same passage.

With regard to the temple mentioned in Revelation 11:1-2, the Greek word naos is used - and the last time in the New Testament that word is used in reference to the Jerusalem temple, is in the verses describing the tearing of the veil:

View attachment 17885

View attachment 17884

Thayer's:
1 used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2 any heathen temple or shrine
3 metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ.

The word naos also appears 3 times in Acts - but not in reference to the temple in Jerusalem: Acts 7:48 ; Acts 17:24 ; Acts 19:24 (See Strong's #3485 - ναός - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org)

So up to the time of the tearing of the veil between the holy place and holy of holies, the word naos refers to the Old Testament temple:

View attachment 17887

After this, naos refers only to the New Testament Temple:

View attachment 17888
So if Revelation 11:1-2 is referring to the temple that stood before A.D 70, then the beast that was destroyed by Christ was Rome, and the two witnesses appeared before A.D 70, and Christ returned in A.D 70, ......

Well, I have my reasons for not believing that all the Revelation occurred by A.D 70... but these are enough reasons here.

Not sure if you're still out there or not... I have struggled with similar thoughts on this topic. One possibility I am considering is that perhaps both ideas are correct to a point. Recapitulation is an oft-used tool in creating stories... could not God, the ultimate story-creator do the same? It may sound trite at first blush, but consider that His ways are so far above ours that maybe we have to look for the unimaginable to begin to understand.

Grace and peace!