Nation born in a day in 1948?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Every verse you quote is 100% true! what is 100% wrong is how you apply them in time and/or eternity.
There will be dead people both when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked and rule the earth, as well as a thousand years later when fire burns up the wicked of that day. (if the fire even leaves any remains at all) When we read about certain events being referred to, we should know when that happens also. For example when it talks about God shaking the earth, that is known to be at a certain time. In Isa 2 it refers to this
Isa 2 :19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Yet earlier in that chapter it mentions a time after this.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
So the chapter was not chronological. When we look at another chapter that mentions dead bodies, we also, likewise should know that is not 'in the eternal kingdom of God'!
No. When you claim some so called victories of a secular nation are and must be due to the direct hand of God in fulfillment of specific prophesies, we can and should compare this with the rest of the bible for context. When God restores and protects the remnant of Israel who are saved, do you think it will look anything like the six day war!?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And I never said so. Boy you really love putting words in my mouth or implying things I never did!
Ezekiel 38 shows Israel back in the land and will be invaded by Russia and its allies!
7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
Israel (specifically Jerusalem) has been the most fought over land in history! Since Israel was reborn, they have had to fight four major wars for their survival. So Israel today is a land bought back from the sword.
Israelites have come from over 120 countries. that fulfills many people.
The land was as Mark Twain said, th emost desolate place on earth. the desert now blooms like the rose as prophesied.
This basttle has to take place in the last days, has to take place at least 3 1/2 years before the tribulation starts as Israel gathers and burns the weapons of war for fuel for 7 years.
Well millions of believers and Jews who are still Gods covenanted people already know! You disagree because the Mossad and Ergun were involved. do you believe God ordered Joshua into the promised land and okayed it though they killed innocent women and children and even cut out babies form the womb? Did the Ergun do as much?
But when do you think this gathering is to take place?
Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version
33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
You say in the tribulation or some future date as this regathering that i s taking place has nothing to do with God.
So do you believe that God will scatter the Jews living in Israel in the future to gather them again to fulfill this?
Sorry but to say this was fulfilled in the return from Babylon is a lie! The return from Babylon did not fulfill this passage even under the most fanciful allegorical reinterpretaion of Gods Word here.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
All I need do is see that this current regathering fulfills the requirements of Ezekiel 38: 8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
Also as they are for the most part still in unbelief and SCripture makes clear God will save all of Israel (the survivors of the 70th week of Daniel) then Ezekiel 20 is also valid :
Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version
33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
All you have given for a defense of your hypothesis that this regathering is not of God is that the Mossad and Ergun did some terrible things (though I noticed you say nothing about teh atrocities the Arabs did to the Jews).
So if that is your major line of defense- you have to conclude that the Jews entering into the promised land after 40 years of wandering was not of god either and that the Bible lies- because the Jews did far worse atrocities to the inahbitants of the land than the modern Jews ever did.
So show why the modern regathering is not of God and the murderous entrance in teh OT under Joshua was from God according ot your philosophical reasoning.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I was addressing thee faith, but as y0 responded then:
1. Yes when Jesus returns, the earth will be desolated. It will have suffered the seals, then bowl and trumpet judgments as well as the all out was between jesus and the antichrist and the worlds armies.
And yes after the millenial kingdom, God the Father sends down fire from heaven and destroys the rebels. but all that will be dissolved before eternity" starts".
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And devoured means burnt up ! So at best it is probably just a pile of ashes. Big time cremation!
Sorry if I assumed you were attempting to address the topic.
We all know that. Why mention something with no bearing on the issue here? The issue is whether God gathered them there or not. Of course they will be there in the end.
In other words 'Go get em Russia and allies, they are there and think they are safe'. So?
Israel was not reborn. Israel simply gathered themselves into a secular nation by force of their own arm.
False. When God gathers them we will know it clearly. Yes they gathered themselves from many places also today. Irrelevant! That is not fulfilling prophesy about when God gathers them.
Nothing like it will when prophesy is actually fulfilled. The land today is also full of sin and dead bodies and weapons of war and unbelievers etc etc. Just because many of these folks have nice gardens does not mean the desert is actually blosoming like a rose. If we look at other prophesies we will see that at the time it blossoms Jesus already judged the nation, the mount of Olives already split in two forming a huge valley, the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, etc etc etc. You do not get to pick out one item and try to make it look like it sort of might almost fit today!
I am not sure about that. There are various opinions on timing. For one thing, can you rule out some burning old weapons in the first several years of the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth? It does seem logical that the folks gathered to fight God and Israel in the end would have some weapons, no? There will not be seven years of the Trib left at that time. Maybe a few days or whatever.
No. I disagree because that secular nation never repented and are not being ruled by David (Jesus) etc. It doesn't matter that they like to think of themselves as 'covenanted' if they are not even saved! ONLY the ones who repent will be saved and part of the nation God restores.
That was probably history as the commentator I posted said.
No. I see nothing in there about 'in that time' 'in those days' or etc in there that would place this in the end days.
Sorry, but how would you know? Many or most never returned to Israel is that not correct? How would that not mean they were scattered? Does it say (in your fanciful wishful thinking interpretation that opposes the rest of the bible) that they would be totally dispersed in hundreds of countries? No.
I was mainly addressing issues regardless of who shoots them out.
Right, and the point was that not all chapters with prophesy are in chronological order. If a chapter flashes back to an event after having already spoken about the future that is fine.
Truth7t7
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Scripture clearly teaches that the eternal lake of fire will be "Outside The Gates" of New Jerusalem
Revelation 22:14-15KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Isaiah 66:22-24KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Jermiah 31:40KJV
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
You don't believe it is God who appoints times or seasons, or God who raises up and knocks down kings?
OK here is a second witness:
Romans 13:1
There is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Right, so you could say red China is ordained by God. That does not mean God brought all the people there in 1963. Nor does it mean the secular nation of Israel was brought there by God.
what????
if you agree China is ordained by God then who exactly do you think created and brought the Chinese people together and appointed them to be a nation?
the only way you can eat your cake and have it too is to vomit it out bro. so it hardly counts as eating, IMO - and not really what i'd call cake.
you believe Daniel 2 & Romans 13, or you don't.
Rudeness aside bro, I think that God allows the vilest of men to rule in this sinful world, in many cases. Someone has to be there to keep law and order and have things run. That is true in the middle east as well. So I would not claim that God brought the leaders we have now, or ever had, so much as that He allowed various wicked rulers to exist for a time. There is a big difference between allowing various wicked men and women to rule and what we see happen for the remnant in Israel one day. There He will give them the land He promised them, destroy their enemies out of hand, gather them from all over especially to be there, provide abundantly for them to the point of changing the world weather and etc. In the bible it says 'gather yourselves'. That is different than Him doing it.
No. But we do not see God ruling and leading Israel in those chapters either. So if you claim GOD gathered one particular nation you need to do more than give general verses about how wicked men are allowed to rule by God.
What is it you think Hab says? And as for 'pelageian', sorry that means nothing to me.
That is during the 6th seal in the tribulation:
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Didn’t I already show you from Hebrews that the Jeremiah 31 new covenant started with the death of Jesus? Or was that someone else?
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