National Covenant

[Randy Kluth]

Let's further investigate the literalism which you apply to the holy nation in 1 Peter 2:9. Your claim is that because Israel is a literal nation in Exodus 19:6, therefore it is also a literal nation in 1 Peter 2:9.

If the nation is literal, then all other descriptions in Exodus 19:6 and 1 Peter 2:9 must be literal as well. Exodus 19:6 refers to a kingdom of priests. The corresponding description in 1 Peter 2:9 is a royal priesthood.

The Exodus 19:6 priests were priests of the Old Covenant.

Therefore the priesthood of 1 Peter 2:9 must be a priesthood of the Old Covenant.

To be literal.

Sorry, that is non sequitur reasoning. It does not follow that because the nation Israel is referred to in one place, and is referred to again in another place, that each description of that nation must be exactly the same. OT Israel is different from NT Israel, but in both cases it is the same nation, Israel.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, the exiles were the Jewish People, notwithstanding the fact there may have been a few non-Jews among them, or converts to the faith.

The Jewish nation may be inclusive of a few Gentile converts or nationalized citizens. But we're not addressing the exceptions, but the whole group.

The nation of Israel does not become a non-Jewish nation simply because it consists of a few individuals that are not Jews. A nation is the whole group, and is often identified by the dominant ethnicity, in this case the Jewish People.

The Church in Galatia was predominantly Gentile. That is why Paul, appointed as the apostle to the Gentiles, wrote his letter to the Galatians.

 

[covenantee]

Sorry, that is non sequitur reasoning. It does not follow that because the nation Israel is referred to in one place, and is referred to again in another place, that each description of that nation must be exactly the same. OT Israel is different from NT Israel, but in both cases it is the same nation, Israel.

If it's the same nation, Israel, then it's the same priests and priesthood.

I'm simply extending your logic.

Let's be literal.

 

[covenantee]

The following is biblically identified as "grace," and did not begin with faith...

1 John 4.10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins... 19 We love because he first loved us.

The words "grace" and "faith" occur in numerous verses, as I've shown.

If John had meant "grace" in 1 John 4:10, he would have written "grace".

He knew the difference between love and grace.

God loves the whole world, but that love does not save the whole world.

Only those who receive grace through the exercise of their faith are saved. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

 

[Randy Kluth]

The words "grace" and "faith" occur in numerous verses, as I've shown.

If John had meant "grace" in 1 John 4:10, he would have written "grace".

He knew the difference between love and grace.

God loves the whole world, but that love does not save the whole world.

Only those who receive grace through the exercise of their faith are saved. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

No, grace is extended through Christ's Son, who "1st loved us."

Rom 5.1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand....
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Church in Galatia was predominantly Gentile. That is why Paul, appointed as the apostle to the Gentiles, wrote his letter to the Galatians.

Yes, but how does this apply to 1 Peter 2?

 

[Keraz]

As I said, you are *redefining* Israel, from being the Jewish People aspiring to live in the land of Israel to represent "every Christian believer." We disagree on this--no sense continually asserting our beliefs to each other back and forth when no more arguments exist that haven't already been given.

My post $194, shows where Jeremiah makes a clear difference between Judah; the Jews and My people, who can only be the Christian peoples.
It is clear and undeniable proof of God's intention to punish Judah and give the holy Land to His faithful Christian peoples.
John sees us there in Revelation 7:9

 

[Randy Kluth]

If it's the same nation, Israel, then it's the same priests and priesthood.

I'm simply extending your logic.

Let's be literal.

That's not being literal--that's being illogical. I can speak of Covenantee in a house and in a back alley. Covenantee does not have to be in a house in both places, as well as in the back alley, to be literally the same Covenantee.

 

[Randy Kluth]

My post $194, shows where Jeremiah makes a clear difference between Judah; the Jews and My people, who can only be the Christian peoples.
It is clear and undeniable proof of God's intention to punish Judah and give the holy Land to His faithful Christian peoples.
John sees us there in Revelation 7:9

God's People can fall, just as Israel did. So there is no necessary distinction between fallen Judah and God's People.

 

[covenantee]

No, grace is extended through Christ's Son, who "1st loved us."

Rom 5.1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand....
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

He loves everyone. But we only gain access to His grace by faith.

Right there in Romans 5:2 which you cited: "...we have gained access by faith into this grace"

 

[covenantee]

Yes, but how does this apply to 1 Peter 2?

In the same way that Paul's letter to the predominantly Gentile Galatian church was relevant to both Jews and Gentiles, so was Peter's letter to the churches, which included that same predominantly Gentile Galatian church, relevant to both Jews and Gentiles.

It was not limited to Jews.

 

[covenantee]

That's not being literal--that's being illogical. I can speak of Covenantee in a house and in a back alley. Covenantee does not have to be in a house in both places, as well as in the back alley, to be literally the same Covenantee.

There's a British idiom "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander", meaning that one person or situation should be treated the same way that another person or situation is treated.

So what's sauce for the literal Israelite nation being imposed upon 1 Peter 2:9 is sauce for the literal Israelite priesthood being imposed upon 1 Peter 2:9.

So as the second is illogical nonsense, so is the first.

 

[Keraz]

God's People can fall, just as Israel did. So there is no necessary distinction between fallen Judah and God's People.

Jeremiah 12:14 and other scriptures do make that distinction.
There is Judah; the Jews and there is God's holy people, who do include some Jews as they are people from every tribe, race, nation and language.
Isaiah 22:1-14 gives a dramatic narrative of the forthcoming downfall of Jewish Israel.

 

[Randy Kluth]

He loves everyone. But we only gain access to His grace by faith.

Right there in Romans 5:2 which you cited: "...we have gained access by faith into this grace"

Yes, faith is how we *gain access.* I'm speaking of it being *offered* 1st, before we wanted it or deserved it. Grace is the means of Salvation because God offers it to sinners. That's how Israel, as a nation, will ultimately come back to God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In the same way that Paul's letter to the predominantly Gentile Galatian church was relevant to both Jews and Gentiles, so was Peter's letter to the churches, which included that same predominantly Gentile Galatian church, relevant to both Jews and Gentiles.

It was not limited to Jews.

Nobody here is arguing that Salvation is limited only to Jews! My argument is that the letter of 1 Peter is directed primarily to believing Jews in exile. That's exactly what Peter said!

 

[Randy Kluth]

There's a British idiom "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander", meaning that one person or situation should be treated the same way that another person or situation is treated.

So what's sauce for the literal Israelite nation being imposed upon 1 Peter 2:9 is sauce for the literal Israelite priesthood being imposed upon 1 Peter 2:9.

So as the second is illogical nonsense, so is the first.

You're confusing the matter. Exo 19 and 1 Pet 2 speak of the same Israel. It doesn't matter if Exo is speaking of OT Israel, and 1 Pet is speaking of NT Israel. The point is, both refer to a specific holy nation. That can only be Israel. This fact does not need to have Israel in both places refer to OT Israel, or both places to speak of NT Israel. Your adage has zero application to this.

I gave you an example. You are mentioned as being in two different places, in a house somewhere and in a back alley somewhere. If I refer to *you* in both places, this does not require that the circumstances be the exact same in both places to identify *you!* You don't need to be in a house in both places to identify you. You don't need to be in a back alley in both places to be you.

I'm at an end on this point, because you're obviously unable or unwilling to see it. Be happy with what you believe.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jeremiah 12:14 and other scriptures do make that distinction.
There is Judah; the Jews and there is God's holy people, who do include some Jews as they are people from every tribe, race, nation and language.
Isaiah 22:1-14 gives a dramatic narrative of the forthcoming downfall of Jewish Israel.

I think you're reading too much into it. "My People" refers to Israel. Judah is part of Israel, and it to be "plucked up" because they, like the northern Kingdom, fell into idolatry and sin.

But the Prophet is quick to say that "after I uproot them, I will again have compassion." This means that "my people Israel," or Judah, will be restored. They are not being distinguished from "My People!"

Jer 12.14 This is what the Lord says: “As for all my wicked neighbors who seize the inheritance I gave my people Israel, I will uproot them from their lands and I will uproot the people of Judah from among them. 15 But after I uproot them, I will again have compassion and will bring each of them back to their own inheritance and their own country.

 

[covenantee]

You're confusing the matter. Exo 19 and 1 Pet 2 speak of the same Israel. It doesn't matter if Exo is speaking of OT Israel, and 1 Pet is speaking of NT Israel. The point is, both refer to a specific holy nation. That can only be Israel. This fact does not need to have Israel in both places refer to OT Israel, or both places to speak of NT Israel. Your adage has zero application to this.

I gave you an example. You are mentioned as being in two different places, in a house somewhere and in a back alley somewhere. If I refer to *you* in both places, this does not require that the circumstances be the exact same in both places to identify *you!* You don't need to be in a house in both places to identify you. You don't need to be in a back alley in both places to be you.

I'm at an end on this point, because you're obviously unable or unwilling to see it. Be happy with what you believe.

That's a bullet that you can't dodge.

If, as you claim, the nation of 1 Peter 2:9 is the literal nation of Exodus 19:6; then the priesthood of 1 Peter 2:9 is the literal priests of Exodus 19:6.

That's simple undeniable unassailable logic and consistency.

Of course, if logic and consistency are of no significance to you, then you can claim whatever you wish.

The overwhelming majority of recognized apologists of the true Christian Church before the 19th century who have exegeted 1 Peter 2:9, declare the holy nation to represent the Christian Church.

When Jesus told the Jewish leaders...:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

...you can be assured that He was not referring to the literal nation of apostate Israel.

There was only one nation to which He could have been alluding.

The holy nation of the Church in 1 Peter 2:9.

 

[covenantee]

Nobody here is arguing that Salvation is limited only to Jews! My argument is that the letter of 1 Peter is directed primarily to believing Jews in exile. That's exactly what Peter said!

It was directed to believing Israelites in exile.

Israelites were comprised of both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Keraz]

I think you're reading too much into it. "My People" refers to Israel. Judah is part of Israel, and it to be "plucked up" because they, like the northern Kingdom, fell into idolatry and sin.

But the Prophet is quick to say that "after I uproot them, I will again have compassion." This means that "my people Israel," or Judah, will be restored. They are not being distinguished from "My People!"

Jer 12.14 This is what the Lord says: “As for all my wicked neighbors who seize the inheritance I gave my people Israel, I will uproot them from their lands and I will uproot the people of Judah from among them. 15 But after I uproot them, I will again have compassion and will bring each of them back to their own inheritance and their own country.

The true Israelites of God are not and never were Judah or any person of a special ethnicity. Abraham was a Sumerian from the city of Ur.
Jacob was the first Israelite of God, he was an Overcomer for God. That is what we Christians are.

Of course; you avoided Jeremiah 12:16, it has two special words in it : If and THEN.
ONLY IF an individual Jew becomes Christian, THEN will that person be able to go to live in the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38 describes this process.

Take note of the Parable of the Landowner. Matthew 21:33-46
Judah has lost the Kingdom and nowhere does the Bible say they get it back.