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Need Old Testament scholars on this one!

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by setfree, Apr 6, 2008.

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  1. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    I was listening to a preacher and He was preaching from Isaiah 26:19-21. He brought some interesting points. I was wondering if anyone can shed some light on these scriptures. I am very weak in Old Testament teachings.
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    what have you decided about them setfree?
     
  3. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    I really havent studied out all the scriptures he backed it up with but I will share as far as I can.Vs 19 dead men shall live/the earth shall cast out the dead. This is a ressurection of the dead.vs. 20 Come (speaking to his kindred), enter thou into thy chambers(bridle chambers) and shut thy door.Seems to be speaking of a hidding until the wrath is over.vs. 21 The Lord comes out of his place(heaven) to punish the inhabitants.(tribulation)This is basically what was said, He gave a lot of other scriptures I am still studing.As I have said before I was taught pretrib rapture, but have not studied it out to make a definite stand either way, but this preacher presented a lot.
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    yeah I figured thats where you were headed I could tell you what it means but Im sure you got your ideas you will find support for so carry on That is kinda what its about Ive told you there is nothing in the new testament that isnt in Old at least in a type or forerunner there is hardly any truth more frequently repeated in Scripture, than God's determined purpose to punish the workers of iniquity. Let us keep close to the Lord, and separate from the world; and let us seek comfort in quite prayer. A day of vengeance is coming on the world, and before it comes we are to expect tribulation and suffering. But because the Christian looks for these things, shall he be restless and dismayed? No, let him repose himself in his God. Abiding in him, the believer is safe. And let us wait patiently the fulfilling of God's promises.This is nothing new I have always said trust in the Lord he will keep you safe during this time just as he did Daniel right here on earth but Im sure you have your own ideas that may differ
     
  5. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    yeah I figured thats where you were headed I could tell you what it means but Im sure you got your ideas you will find support for so carry on That is what its about Ive told you there is nothing in the new testament that isnt in Old at least in a type or forerunner there is hardly any truth more frequently repeated in Scripture, than God's determined purpose to punish the workers of iniquity. Let us keep close to the Lord, and separate from the world; and let us seek comfort in quite prayer. A day of vengeance is coming on the world, and before it comes we are to expect tribulation and suffering. But because the Christian looks for these things, shall he be restless and dismayed? No, let him repose himself in his God. Abiding in him, the believer is safe. And let us wait patiently the fulfilling of God's promises.This is nothing new I have always said trust in the Lord he will keep you safe during this time just as he did Daniel right here on earth but Im sure you have your own ideas that will differ
    Kriss, I am searching truth!!! When you have had years of a certain doctrine pounded in your head it is hard to just erase it. As I stated I do not know where I stand, this is why I question what I was taught here.I have not fully searched this subject out, I listen with open ears, but cautious. Just as I have with this preacher. I have not written off what he said, but I am not completely convinced either.....this is why I posted here, hoping to get someone who knew Old Testament, better than I do to help.If you have a problem with my question or do not know how to answer, then do not reply. Maybe someone through the Spirit can help me, if not I will wait on the Spirit to help me. God works through people to help, this is what I was searching for....
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Sorry if I said something to offend you I just know this verse and knew how it could be misused and sense I know thats your belief it wasnt hard to put and two together if that offends you sorry
     
  7. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Sorry if I said something to ofend you I just know this verse and knew how it could be misused and sense I know thats your belief it wasnt hard to put and two together if that offends you sorry
    What do you know to be my belief? I still do not know how I stand on this.Maybe since you know about these verses you can share....The offense came when you took for granted what direction I was moving.During my searching this out, I came across this message and He made some good points. I had never heard before. I am only moving in the direction the Holy Spirit is bringing me.
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I met your tenacy to belief in Rapture its not as if we havent discussed on several occasions I will be happy to help if you interested in what it says.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The hide here is the same type language that was used in the Hebrew when God told the Hebrews to go into their houses and pray and mark them with Lambs blood on Passover when he sent the Angel of death to kill the first born of Egypt. This is a reference to the same time Revelation tells us about when again tribulation (angel of death)will come upon the World and just as God protected the Hebrews he will protect his own.But he didnt need to remove the Hebrews to protect them and he doesnt need to remove anyone in the future to protect them.
     
  10. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    The hiding is where most people differ on the rapture. Whether it is hiding on earth or hiding in heaven. We all agree that God will protect us from the wrath, but where? This is where I am uncertain...I see it both ways right now..but I know scriptures as I study will reveal this.As I said before Old Testament is a weak area for me, but I am learning how to study it.What I have learned is that it is written in hebrew, it is a picture of what takes place in the New Testament (spiritually and physically). Also to understand a lot of the Bible we have to look at it in a Hebrew perspective. In the Old Testament it shows that there is a hiding or escape theme of God causing the righteous to escape the wrath of God.As I said my understaning is limited, but I am learning.We all agree rapture is not in the Bible in English, but neither is demons, millennium reign, trinity etc. The word catching(yank) up is 1 Thess. 4:17, Eph. 1:9-10. But before vs 20 is discussed. Where do you stand on vs. 19?
     
  11. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    (setfree;44545)
    I was listening to a preacher and He was preaching from Isaiah 26:19-21. He brought some interesting points. I was wondering if anyone can shed some light on these scriptures. I am very weak in Old Testament teachings.
    I have checked up what Bible scholors, And Bible commentries have said about Isaiah 26: 19--21. And they all agree with your preacher.God's paturn has always been[1] The warning.[2] The moving of His people to safety.[3] The outpouring of wrath.
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    There is nothing new under the sun God will do as he has always done there is nothing new here God has never hid anyone anywhere but right here its a beautiful verses describing how God will always protect his faithful I frankly find it extremely distasteful that anyone that calls themselves a preacher would want to pervert this with a teaching of men that was never in scripture.catching away is about the dead (those who are asleep)as it was being explained to the Thess. that the dead are caught up to heaven. to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. notice the preceeding verse's in this chapter of Isa. the song of Judha remember the song of Moses the overcomers will sing, the reference to woman in labor pains same as we are told about the signs of the End this is not new it is our second wittness to the new testament teaching 9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. These are the saints that died for his name sake that are with him now and will return with him at th 7th trumpHe has told us and showed us time and time again that he protects his people in Egypt, in the desert, during the flood, in the lions den, in prison, yet people still want to listen to men that he cant protect you without them making up there own doctrines This hiding in hebrew is to go into ones inner most room,abode or self and the says YOU (thyself) are to hide there it says nothing about God flying anyone away Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpastI am done here I wont help pervert the Word and take Gods verse's met to give the faithful trust in their fatherinto teaching of a trust in men's lies This is equivalent to disgracing Passover One of Gods holiest Days and everything he has showed us he has done
     
  13. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (kriss;44584)
    The hide here is the same type language that was used in the Hebrew when God told the Hebrews to go into their houses and pray and mark them with Lambs blood on Passover when he sent the Angel of death to kill the first born of Egypt. This is a reference to the same time Revelation tells us about when again tribulation (angel of death)will come upon the World and just as God protected the Hebrews he will protect his own.But he didnt need to remove the Hebrews to protect them and he doesnt need to remove anyone in the future to protect them.
    If the Old testament is a picture of future, New Testament. Would it be wrong to say that the safety he choses will be the rapture for the end? If He choses this way it will not make His word void, He still conceals, hides etc.The Old Testament pictures of Hiding- Blood on the door, Noah's Ark, Lot escaping fire and Brimstone(Lot was taken out of the city here). All these instances God's people were concealed or taken out of GOD'S wrath.We are not taken out of everyday-life tribulation, satan's temptations, but Gods wrath we are not appointed to.These are just hypothetical questions, but something I am pondering on my search for truth.
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    No you are looking to prevert the word into your truth call it what you want the verse is very clearCome, my people, enter thou into thy chambers(house), and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpastIf you wanted truth you wouldnt be looking for mens doctrine in Gods word
     
  15. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (kriss;44700)
    No you are looking to prevert the word into your truth call it what you want the verse is very clearCome, my people, enter thou into thy chambers(house), and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpastIf you wanted truth you wouldnt be looking for mens doctrine in Gods word
    Kriss why the accusations? I am not looking for mens doctrines! I am not looking to pervert My Fathers words, I am searching for the truth!!!! I did not go looking for this message, it fell in my lap so to speak and I sift everything I hear out with a fine tooth comb. Sometimes God conceals things from us like a mystery and I believe this is one of those things. When it is searched out and solved I will know where I stand!
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    They are not accusations it is the truth you are not looking for what God says you are looking for what men tell you, thats fact not accusation Exodus 11:6 "And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it nor shall be like it any more."This was a time of great tragedy, to see your firstborn drop dead right before your eyes.Exodus 11:7 "But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the Lord doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel."This plague documents completely that God will be in control of all that happens that night. Of course "shall not a dog move his tongue" is an idiom; A dog puts forth it's tongue and points it when it's about to bark, growl or attack. God is telling these Israelites that not one of them or their animals and property is going to be harmed by this tenth plague that will hit all of Egypt.This is a type of the final tribulation, when all the plagues of the end times are all around us, not one of God's Elect will be harmed in any manner by the plague that will destroy God's enemies. Those that say, "Thank God I'm going in the rapture, and that they don't have to stay for the tribulation." They are blind to the fact that there will be no rapture, that's right, all souls living in their flesh bodies will be right here to the final end, to the sounding of the seventh and last trump.So are you going through the tribulation? The answer also is, "no you are not". This tenth plague is allowing you and I living in these last days to see exactly how God takes care of His own. God will protect you from that plague in the tribulation, which is sent against His enemy only, and not one person that believes in the Father, and by faith has received the Son will have a hair touched on their head. Of course the two witnesses will be killed exactly as God told us they would in Revelation 11. It is written that God will give you protection, and this tenth plague allows us to see exactly how God's protection will be fulfilled.God has told us over and over that He will protect you, and He gave us many examples of His protection. In Daniel 2 through the three Hebrew children that were thrown into the fiery furnace, and not a hair on their head was touched. Also when Israel's army of seven thousand was surrounded by hundreds of thousands of the enemy, and Elijah asked God to open the eyes of his servant to see God's army, and then that army of God rumbled and the enemy fled from the noise. There are many examples God has given us to let us know that He can protect His own. Even when we are delivered up to the synagogues of Satan, as written in Mark 13:9 - 11, God will place the words that you are to say into your mind and mouth, so that you don't even have to think beforehand what you shall say.God has his seven thousand that have not bowed their knee to the image of Baal in Elias day, and God will also have His seven thousand that will not bow their knee to the image of Baal in this final generation. Those with the seal of God in their minds, know what to expect in these latter days, and not one of them will find the miracles and supernatural acts of Satan tempting to them. They will know that this time that Satan and his fallen angels, and that religious system will be very short lived to five month, and then it all will be over at the seventh trump.Don't allow yourself to be so scared that God can't handle His own business, and provide for protection and substance for His own people, but get faith about yourself. When you know that Father loves you, and takes care of His own, how could you fear any time or thing when you have your complete faith in Him.Exodus 11:8 "And all these thy servants shall come down unto me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, `Get thee out, and all the People that follow thee:' and after that I will go out." And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger."Again Moses is telling the people exactly what is going to happen, even to the point of what Pharaoh and the people will do and say after their firstborn have been slain. In the morning after Pharaoh's firstborn has been slain, Pharaoh will be in great anger at Moses, and at God. The people of Egypt will know exactly the power of Moses' God, and that God is in control of everything that is happening. Over and over God hardened Pharaoh's heart to the point that his firstborn had to be killed, but after the death angel passed, noticed how many will be saved because of this.When ever God takes a life, He also is the judge of that soul in the eternity. When the clay of this flesh body returns back to the elements that it is made of, the soul and spirit returns immediately to the Father that placed that soul and spirit in the embryo of that child at conception. God gives life and He can take it. Many Egyptians were saved and come to know the true God through this final plague upon Egypt. They came to know that some animal or fish wasn't God, but YHVH, the children of Israel's God was the only true God.God uses these things to save many and always protects his own from the angel of death right here on earthto bad this isnt good enough for some
     
  17. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    I am not saying it is not good enough, any way God wants to handle the end time...I trust Him! But He also says to study to show yourself approved unto God..that needeth not be ashamed..rightly dividing the word of truth.This is what I am trying to do and you get upset with my searching this out for myself and not taking your words. If you remember back when you were searching things out.. I bet you ask all the questions too! I hope the people that help you find your truths were more patient than you have been with me on mine. If someone ask me about the rapture, I want to be able to answer with confidence one way or the other.
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Exodus 12:12 "For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord."God loved Egypt also, but He did not like their perversions of following false gods. Will God destroy Egypt for what they did to the children of Israel? No. God loved Egypt also and promised that He would turn their fortunes again and that they would always be a base nation. Egypt is a strong nation in these latter days, and this shows us that God always keeps His Word.However this night of the Passover, God will pass through the land of Egypt and claim the life of the firstborn of both man and beast. Again we were told back in Exodus 7:5 why God was bringing all these seven plagues upon the land of Egypt.Exodus 7:5 "And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, which I stretch forth Mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them."God brought these plagues on Egypt to document to both the children of Israel, and to the Egyptians that God was the only true God. God is going to pass through the land of Egypt this night of the Passover and kill all the firstborn in the land. "Passing through the land", sets the stage for passing over Egypt. God will pass over those that believe on the Lord, and follow the instructions of the Lord by placing the blood on the door post and over the door of each home. Those that have the blood on the door post will not receive the death angel in that home this night.This goes for those that live in the time of the end also, for those that have followed the instructions that God has given us in His Word, and sealed it away in their minds. Each of God's elect and those seal will not be deceived by Satan, when he arrives to deceive the whole world. God is not out to destroy those He loves, for He is able to take care of His own.Exodus 12:13 "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt."Here we have the full meaning of the Passover in this verse. "When I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you." Passover is the time when God will destroy His enemies, but He will pass over those that love and trust Him. The blood on the post signifies the true blood that was shed on the cross at Calvary. Christ was the lamb slain for one and all times.That Lamb that was slain on the cross at Calvary, was slain so that anything wicked must pass over you and your house, even in our day. Jesus promised you and I that when we see and believe in the blood of Jesus Christ, and have faith and follow Him and His Word, the judgments that come on those that are not of God will pass right over you. Keep it straight in your mind, "Passover" is of God, for Christ became our Passover When our Lord Jesus Christ returns at the seventh trump, when you are sealed in your forehead with the truth, and you do not bow a knee to Satan. God's judgment that Jesus Christ will bring upon the world at the sounding of the seventh and last trump will not be upon you to destroy you. If you were right in the middle of ten thousand Kenites, and God was going to strike them, you still have nothing to worry about. We are to revere God, not fear God, for there is nothing to fear from our heavenly Father.Exodus 12:14 "And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever."God is telling you and I and all generations from the time of Moses to this last generation not to forget this time of the Passover. There is nothing tricky to what God said here, we are to keep the Passover and respect it forever. No we don't pick out the lamb on the tenth day, and slaughter it on the fourteenth day, because that would be sacrilegious, and a blasphemy. When Jesus Christ shed his blood for one and all times, He is now our Passover Lamb that we look to continually.How your rapture doctrine trivializes this Passover God has promised us God thinks it an abomination you talk in circles to justify your actions tell it to God not me
     
  19. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Now to continue my search for answers...is there any one that knows about the Rosh Hashanah-Jewish New Year, I think this was the feast of the trumpets. During this celebration, it is my understanding that the themes were resurrection, Kingship, Marriage.This is Mentioned in Lev. 23:24-25 day of blowing the horn. Yom Ha-Zikkaron(day of remembrance, Yom Teruah (the day of sounding the shofar) Something to do with the alert to coming judgement. Any and all help will be appreciated.
     
  20. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    If the passover is a picture of the end times and you say that all that have the blood of Jesus to cover them of there sins will not be harmed, then who are the ones under the altar? Rev. 6:9-11.
     
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