New Covenant only for Jews?

[Eternally Grateful]

looking at what the author says, particularly the following verses

Heb 8: 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

we must ask ourselves. where in the world has this happened for anyone?

 

[Cassandra]

Romans 2:26-29 KJV
26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I relate this to Romans 9-11, where Paul is addressing the question of, what about Israel? The redeemer came to Zion, but not all Israel is saved?

In ch. 9 he basically presents that 'not all of Abraham's kids are Israel, but the one promised, Isaac. And not all Isaac's kids are Israel, but the one chosen, Jacob. And not all of Jacob's kids are truly Israel, but the faithful.'

So when I look back to ch. 2, just being born Jewish, just being circumsized, that's not the point, but to really be a Jew, your circumcision needs be of the heart.

This defines who is and who is not "the Israel of God", as Paul names in Galatians. But is does not define the gentiles as the "Israel of God".

Galatians 3:28 KJV
28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

If in fact there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, how is this an argument that gentiles enter God's covenant with Israel and Judah?

Much love!

Well, it says we are Jews, too --there is no difference. we are all heirs.

Where, or did I miss it, is the scripture about the Gentiles being near that you posted upthread? I still didn't see in in that thread you posted. Is it a "just your opinion" sort of thing? and what does it mean anyway? Are there degrees of nearness?

 

[marks]

Well, it says we are Jews, too --there is no difference. we are all heirs.

Where does it say gentiles are Jews?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Where, or did I miss it, is the scripture about the Gentiles being near that you posted upthread? I still didn't see in in that thread you posted. Is it a "just your opinion" sort of thing? and what does it mean anyway? Are there degrees of nearness?

Ephesians 2:12-14 KJV
12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Those who were not Israel were strangers without hope, but in Christ those who were far away are make near by His blood.

Before Jesus died, He taught the disciples that no one could come to Him except that the Father draw them. But then He said, "If I be lifted up (idiom for crucified), I will draw all men to myself.

Much love!

 

[Cassandra]

Where does it say gentiles are Jews?

Much love!

It says there is no Jew or Greek, doesn't it? you can't argue around that.

 

[marks]

It says there is no Jew or Greek, doesn't it? you can't argue around that.

I'm not trying to.

If there is no Greek or Jew in Christ, what do we make of that? Certainly not that the Greek becomes a Jew, if there are no Greeks or Jews, right?

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[Lambano]

I'm guessing because that is what He meant.

Gentiles benefit by being brought near, and In Christ we share in redemption and rebirth. But we don't enter God's covenants with Israel.

Much love!

Okay, I catch that little nuance. But in the Galatians 3 and Romans 11 verses I cited, Gentiles are indeed brought into the promises God made to Abraham. The New Covenant redefines what "Israel" (or, "the Israel of God") is.

The Jewish people define themselves in terms of Election (i.e. being God's people, not necessarily in the Calvinist sense of the term) and Torah. I think most Rabbis would agree with that, though I haven't asked any lately. Some writers add ancestry, land, and (in the second Temple era) Temple. New Covenant People of God are no longer defined by Torah, Temple, land, race, gender, nationality, etc.

Then it becomes a fair question to ask, well, what does define the New Covenant People of God, the "Israel of God"? And what is their relationship to the original Israel? I think it has something to do with Jesus. I'll leave that open for discussion.

A little post-script:
I don't know about you, but redefinition of key terms in mid-stream gets my logical hackles up. And no doubt really irritates the spit out of our Jewish cousins. Nevertheless, Paul wrote what he wrote. O γέγραφα γέγραφα. If somebody would prefer, say, a more Dispensational solution like this is a future covenant with the Jewish people, I understand.

I've found the "New Perspective on Paul" work of N.T. Wright, J.D.G. Dunn, and Richard Hays, and a couple of books by Jewish professor Pamela Eisenbaum to be quite valuable in my understanding of what Paul is saying.

 

[Cassandra]

I'm not trying to.

If there is no Greek or Jew in Christ, what do we make of that? Certainly not that the Greek becomes a Jew, if there are no Greeks or Jews, right?

Much love!

It means everyone is one group. You know exactly what that means.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why does it say the "New Covenant" Jesus made is only for the Jews?

Hebrews 8:8 - But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

@Mike Tang 1991 @Ronald Nolette @marks

Based on Paul's argument in Hebrews, we can now conclude that Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of TWO covenants. It's subtle but notice the references to time in the following passage.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

First, the prophet speaks about days that are coming (vs31). Then his attention switches to other days after that (vs33).

In verse 31, the Lord reveals that he is going to make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the House of Judah, but he doesn't specify the terms of that covenant. The terms of the covenant are left unspoken. Later, in the New Testament, Jesus and the Father reveal the terms of that New Covenant in terms of a new basis on which to find forgiveness and justification with God. Rather than being justified by the blood of bulls and goats, Israel (and Gentiles also) will find justification through the blood of the cross. Jesus even says so explicitly. Holding up the wine glass, during the Jewish Seder he says, "this is the New Covenant in my blood." Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20 And Paul the apostle reiterates this also in 1 Corinthians 11:25 Salvation by the blood of Jesus IS the New Covenant, which not only applies to Israel, it applies to Gentiles also.

In verse 33, the Lord describes another covenant he will make "after those days." After what days? After the days during which the New Covenant was inaugurated. The New Covenant was inaugurated at the cross of Jesus. And as we know, the New Covenant has been in force for many centuries. Sometime in our future, the Lord will bring about the covenant specified in Jeremiah 31:33, which describes a day when know one in Israel will need teach, "know the Lord" because they will all know him. This is yet to happen in our future.

 

[marks]

A little post-script:
I don't know about you, but redefinition of key terms in mid-stream gets my logical hackles up.

When we do it, I feel we'd better have a good reason. When God does it, I feel He has a good reason. I just roll with it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay, I catch that little nuance. But in the Galatians 3 and Romans 11 verses I cited, Gentiles are indeed brought into the promises God made to Abraham. The New Covenant redefines what "Israel" (or, "the Israel of God") is.

We share in justification through faith, the children of faithful Abraham, but we don't share the promise, everywhere you walk is yours in this plot of land.

I believe the 12 tribes of Isreal will receive their land alotments, and will be judged by the Apostles, who will judge under King David, who will rule Isreal under King Jesus, King of Kings, during the kingdom age. I believe that the Jews will have been saved at the end of the tribulation when they see Jesus. That they will without exception receive their Messiah, that they will enter the new covenant. This new covenant will wipe away their iniquity, and will write God's laws on their hearts, so that they will actually keep and do all that is written, materially and spiritually.

I believe that the nation of Isreal will continue, and I think that their children will be born alive in the Spirit, forever. I find all this prophesied, and with extremely strong affirmations that it will happen, and as such, I respect the place and role of National Israel throughout.

New Covenant People of God are no longer defined by Torah, Temple, land, race, gender, nationality, etc.

I'd have to question this statement, considering, "the days will come when I will make a new covenant with the House of Isreal, and the House of Judah", this seems to me that it IS actually defined according to nationality.

For myself, my real interest in this discussion at the moment is to ask, is the New Covenant effective now or not? While I see in our salvation the new heart, and the forgiveness of sins, but I don't see salvation of all Israel, and I don't see the Law written on their hearts to be kept completely.

Jeremiah 31:30-37 KJV
30) But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

I see this part bolded only being fulfilled with Jesus returns.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It means everyone is one group. You know exactly what that means.

You sound as though you would scold me. Tell me . . . What exactly do I know?

Is it that you are reading, There is neither Greek nor Jew, and are hearing, All the Greeks are Jews?

Much love!

 

[marks]

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Thank you!! That makes a lot of sense, and like usual, failing to apply full significance to a word or two left me wondering about this.

For myself, my real interest in this discussion at the moment is to ask, is the New Covenant effective now or not? While I see in our salvation the new heart, and the forgiveness of sins, but I don't see salvation of all Israel, and I don't see the Law written on their hearts to be kept completely.

I'll need to review, well, quite a bit of material actually to see how that fits, but it does seem to answer my question!

Much love!

 

[marks]

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

"a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"

Then,

"the covenant which I will make with the house of Isreal"

Is this that the two sticks became one again?

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

Look at the parables in Matt Mark and Luke

ive looked, for a couple days now, but wadr i am not getting how that addresses my q at all, sorry

Evangelism is simply going out and bringing in the harvest of wheat into teh masters barns, or going and finding and bringing in the lost sheep

is it? bringing them in to where? i ask bc Jesus bringing them in is prolly functionally different from us bringing

 

[bbyrd009]

looking at what the author says, particularly the following verses

Heb 8: 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

we must ask ourselves. where in the world has this happened for anyone?

ive been reflecting on this for a couple of days, and i gotta say it minds me of my experience around most mideastern muslims, at least in certain contexts. Jerusalem had this feel to it, at least to me.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Mike Tang 1991 @Ronald Nolette @marks

Based on Paul's argument in Hebrews, we can now conclude that Jeremiah 31:31-34 speaks of TWO covenants. It's subtle but notice the references to time in the following passage.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

First, the prophet speaks about days that are coming (vs31). Then his attention switches to other days after that (vs33).

In verse 31, the Lord reveals that he is going to make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and the House of Judah, but he doesn't specify the terms of that covenant. The terms of the covenant are left unspoken. Later, in the New Testament, Jesus and the Father reveal the terms of that New Covenant in terms of a new basis on which to find forgiveness and justification with God. Rather than being justified by the blood of bulls and goats, Israel (and Gentiles also) will find justification through the blood of the cross. Jesus even says so explicitly. Holding up the wine glass, during the Jewish Seder he says, "this is the New Covenant in my blood." Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20 And Paul the apostle reiterates this also in 1 Corinthians 11:25 Salvation by the blood of Jesus IS the New Covenant, which not only applies to Israel, it applies to Gentiles also.

In verse 33, the Lord describes another covenant he will make "after those days." After what days? After the days during which the New Covenant was inaugurated. The New Covenant was inaugurated at the cross of Jesus. And as we know, the New Covenant has been in force for many centuries. Sometime in our future, the Lord will bring about the covenant specified in Jeremiah 31:33, which describes a day when know one in Israel will need teach, "know the Lord" because they will all know him. This is yet to happen in our future.

Nice try, but your hypothesis does not stand up to linguistics and basic grammar. You have to force the church in here with no warrant and evidence other than your own opinion.

Contextually the whole passage is for Israel. The church does not replace Israel or is hidden in this passage only to be revealed by reinterpreting the passage.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

vse 31: clearly a new covenant is to be made with all of Israel.
vse 32: it is to be qualitatively different than the old covenant that the Jewish fathers broke in the desert.
vse33 Starts by introducing the covenant to all Israel:

1."After those days" same euphemism as "days are coming". In context of Jeremiah it is after the end times.
2. God will put His law (singular) in every heart He will be their god again and they (as a nation) will be His people.

Hosea 1:9-10
King James Version

9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

verse 34: the "and they" refers to the people in verse 33 Israel.

It really is that simple.

A question for you. How do you know that teh reinterpreting of this passage as you did to mean what you say, is right? whotold you? what authority do you have to reinterpret this passage that clearly says Israel to mean the church?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

ive looked, for a couple days now, but wadr i am not getting how that addresses my q at all, sorry

is it? bringing them in to where? i ask bc Jesus bringing them in is prolly functionally different from us bringing

Well restate the key question. the parables answers may have been a rabbit trail.

Yes it is! We don't bring in a soul. We are just used by God as vessels reaching out to the lost sheep to bring them in. god does the saving, and does it through us.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"

Then,

"the covenant which I will make with the house of Isreal"

Is this that the two sticks became one again?

Much love!

Could be. It makes sense to me.