New Covenant only for Jews?

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Ronald Nolette

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Again, I ask you to be fair. We all give our opinions about what the text says. You speak as if you aren't doing that yourself. :)

With regard to the fact that prophets other than Jeremiah speak about "those days" and "after those days" is of little interest, because our concern is what Jeremiah intends to say in Jeremiah 31:31-34. We understand his reference to the "coming days" in the larger context of the entire chapter. The reason why many of the prophets speak in terms of "coming days" is due to the fact that Israel has been taken captive by Assyria and Judah is about to be taken captive into Babylon. Here in chapter 31 of Jeremiah, we hear Rachel crying for her children because, in her view, God has broken his promise to her and her children will be no more. The Lord comforts her, telling her that her children will return to the land; and God will bless her there once again. The Lord punctuates his word to Rachael, and ultimately, his people, with the phrase "Behold days are coming . .


YOur first error here is that the prophets are speaking of the Assyrian captivity. Just off the top of my head, I believe all teh prophets (major and minor) all prophesied after the Assyrian captivity so that argument is moot.

And as for the Babylonian captivity all we have to do is compare the prophecy to events that tookplace afterwards. If teh events fulfill 100% the prophecy then it is a fulfilled prophecy. But God does not deal with closde enough is good enough!
 

Ronald Nolette

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In verse 31, Jeremiah repeats the phrase "Behold days are coming . . .", which he has already established as the time after the exile when the people return from Babylon to the land of Judah. During that time, which is the time when Jesus walked the earth, The Lord made a New Covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel. Both Jesus and Paul understand the New Covenant in terms of individual salvation, based on faith in the blood of Jesus. Although Jeremiah doesn't specify this aspect of the New Covenant, this aspect is the sum and substance of the New Covenant according to all the New Testament authors.

Soo according to you the following provisions of the New Covenant as declared by God were fulfilled when Jesus walked the earth?

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This has yet come to pass, so it is still future! It really is that simple!
 

CadyandZoe

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The covenant is for the house of Israel and Judah. They have not mystically, allegorically transmorphed into the church as you wish.
I am uncertain what I said that might lead you to say this. I certainly must have miscommunicated and for that I am very sorry. I don't maintain that Israel is transformed into the church.
 

CadyandZoe

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Soo according to you the following provisions of the New Covenant as declared by God were fulfilled when Jesus walked the earth?

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This has yet come to pass, so it is still future! It really is that simple!
Again, I must have miscommunicated. No, Jesus did not fulfill verses 33 and 34 while on earth. Verses 33 and 34 are NOT the New Covenant; they are a different covenant altogether.
 

Keraz

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The Bible doesn't teach us that Christians are "Israel" in any sense of the word
But it does!
The word- israel, simply means an overcomer, as Jacob was at Bethel.
We Faithful Christians are the Overcomers for God. We see them in each of the seven Church's of Revelation.
Paul said: we are the Israel of God, in Galatians 6:14-16.
In this thread, Keraz, we are discussing whether or not Gentiles participate in the New Covenant. Much of the New Testament argues in the affirmative. Nowhere does it say that Gentiles are excluded unless they become Israelites first.
Yes, and my post #52 shows the New Covenant will be made with people from every tribe, race, nation and language.
With all the faithful Christian Israelites of God.

The mistake people make, is to accept the false claim of the Jewish State of Israel. They have usurped the word Israel, without a proper and valid claim to it. They are the House of Judah, separated from Israel 3.5 K years ago and not yet rejoined.
And the quality that marks the chosen is the faith that all the sons of Abraham share.
Ethnicity has no bearing on who is an Israelite of God, Paul made that abundantly clear in Ephesians 2:11-18
As Paul said in Romans 11, the ethnic people, the Jews have been lopped of the Tree and only by not continuing to be faithless; can they be re-grafted back. Romans 11:23
Paul; and many other prophesies tell us that only a remnant of the Jews will do that.
 
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CadyandZoe

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YOur first error here is that the prophets are speaking of the Assyrian captivity. Just off the top of my head, I believe all teh prophets (major and minor) all prophesied after the Assyrian captivity so that argument is moot.

And as for the Babylonian captivity all we have to do is compare the prophecy to events that tookplace afterwards. If teh events fulfill 100% the prophecy then it is a fulfilled prophecy. But God does not deal with closde enough is good enough!
We would need to examine each passage individually. I was hoping you would grant me the space to make generalized statements, since we are trying to keep our posts short. The point is this. We are looking at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and therefore, we allow Jeremiah to make the points he wants to make with his language.

I don't know what you mean by "close enough is good enough."
 

CadyandZoe

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Well if you have info that this is a historic stance of the church, please post it so we can all see those who held this position.
I didn't say it was an historic stance of the church. I'm saying just the opposite. I'm saying that historical stances aren't valid when reexamining a text. We are looking with fresh eyes.
 

CadyandZoe

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But it does!
The word- israel, simply means an overcomer, as Jacob was at Bethel.
We Faithful Christians are the Overcomers for God. We see them in each of the seven Church's of Revelation.
Paul said: we are the Israel of God, in Galatians 6:14-16.
While it might be true that Israel, in English, means "overcomer" and while Christians are overcomers in some sense, it doesn't follow therefore that Christians are Israel. When the New Testament employs the term "Israel", it refers to the State of Israel, located in Western Asia, and the people who live there.

Rather than making generalizations that may or may not be true, it would be more beneficial to establish the meaning of the term from the text where the word is used.

For instance, the following sentence employs TWO different meanings of the word "Israel", neither of which refers to a Gentile:

Romans 9:6, But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Ethnicity has no bearing on who is an Israelite of God, Paul made that abundantly clear in Ephesians 2:11-18
As Paul said in Romans 11, the ethnic people, the Jews have been lopped of the Tree and only by not continuing to be faithless; can they be re-grafted back. Romans 11:23
Paul; and many other prophesies tell us that only a remnant of the Jews will do that.
Paul isn't defining an "Israelite" in Ephesians.
 

Keraz

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When the New Testament employs the term "Israel", it refers to the State of Israel, located in Western Asia, and the people who live there.
I disagree.
The Jewish State of Israel in no way represents all of Israel. They are a mixed race of people, who may or may not have a Jewish heritage, who have continually denied that Jesus is the Messiah. They rely on their own strenght for protection.
Many prophesies tell of their virtual demise on the Lord's Day of His fiery wrath.
 
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Desire Of All Nations

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Where does it say gentiles are Jews?

Much love!
Paul taught in Rom. 2:29 that all true Christians are Jews. Christ basically repeats this same doctrine in Rev. 2:9 and Rev. 3:9 where He speaks of the synagogue of Satan claiming they are Jews.
YOur first error here is that the prophets are speaking of the Assyrian captivity. Just off the top of my head, I believe all teh prophets (major and minor) all prophesied after the Assyrian captivity so that argument is moot.

And as for the Babylonian captivity all we have to do is compare the prophecy to events that tookplace afterwards. If the events fulfill 100% the prophecy then it is a fulfilled prophecy. But God does not deal with closde enough is good enough!
You are absolutely wrong. Jeremiah is primarily an end-time book. Jer. 23:20, 30:24, 1-9 makes this crystal clear. Jer. 30:1-9 undeniably makes it obvious that it is an end-time book that was only fulfilled in type because in verse 4, God says this prophecy concerning Jacob's trouble(the Tribulation) is addressed to both Israel and Judah. Israel was already enslaved by Assyria long before this prophecy was recorded, so the idea that it was only a prophecy concerning a past event is preposterous. It is clearly describing an event that hasn't happened yet. Verse 24 even wraps the chapter up with God repeating the phrase "in the latter days, you will consider it".

Furthermore, verses 8-9 clearly mentions Israel and Judah experiencing national slavery in the time just before David is resurrected to rule over both groups. Again, this is describing a future event. Paul was inspired to quote Jer. 31 because it is primarily describing a future event. If it were only describing history, all of the national descendants of the northern 10 tribes(the house of Israel) and Jews would be practicing biblical Christianity right now. Anyone with 2 working eyes and some common sense can see that this is clearly not the case. Atheism is huge in these countries, and even the "Christianity" that is largely practiced in these countries consists of people rejecting God's laws.
While it might be true that Israel, in English, means "overcomer" and while Christians are overcomers in some sense, it doesn't follow therefore that Christians are Israel. When the New Testament employs the term "Israel", it refers to the State of Israel, located in Western Asia, and the people who live there.
You should take your own advice about making generalizations and establishing a proper meaning of the term. When the Bible refers to Israel prophetically speaking, it is not speaking of the Jewish nation. The Jewish nation is not prophetic Israel. It is prophetic Judah. Generalizations like this come from a failure to understand biblical history and the fact that not all Israelites are Jews. Prophetic Israel refers to the northern 10 Israelite tribes that rejected the rule of Solomon's son Rehoboam. There is a reason why OT prophecies consistently refers to these 2 kingdoms as being separate entities.

Study 1, Kings, 2 Kings, and 2 Chronicles. The northern kingdom had their own kings, their own capital city, their own religion, and their own history. It was an entirely separate and independent nation from Judah, even though both kingdoms were able to directly trace their ancestry to Jacob. When prophecies speak of the house of Israel, it is referring to the descendants of the northern 10 tribes because Ephraim and Manasseh were the tribes that were given the birthright promises. Read Gen. 48:16 for yourself. Jacob clearly says his name was to be placed on their descendants, not the descendants of Joseph's brothers. Joseph is the one who inherited the birthright from Jacob, and it is his descendants that have possessed it down to this very day.

When Ephraim and Manasseh made Solomon's prime minister king of their kingdom, the remaining tribes who supported Rehoboam essentially forfeited any right to the national name and became known by David's ancestor Judah instead, hence the term "Jew". The term is first used in 2 Kin. 16:5-6 where those passages clearly describe the king of Israel being allied with Syria in a war against Jews. The fact that a lot of professing Christians actually believe the term "Israel" prophetically refers to the Jewish nation in the Middle East inherently proves their religion is false.
For instance, the following sentence employs TWO different meanings of the word "Israel", neither of which refers to a Gentile:

Romans 9:6, But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Paul isn't defining an "Israelite" in Ephesians.
Paul is defining "Israelite" in Ephesians, particularly because he describes the Gentiles as being strangers from the commonwealth before their conversion. The implication is automatically made clear that he is speaking of someone being in God's Church as opposed to someone who isn't. If they're in God's Church, they are an Israelite. If they haven't truly converted, then they're not an Israelite. The theology concerning this is pretty clear when you realize Paul is referencing how it worked under the former covenant.

Under that covenant, a Gentile who went embraced the theocracy that was established in the Law was to be considered an Israelite from that moment forward, regardless of their physical ethnicity. Spiritually speaking, it works the same way under the current covenant. Whoever truly converts to practicing biblical Christianity is to be considered an Israelite from that moment forward. This isn't complicated to understand or accept.
 
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Curtis

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Whoever truly converts to practicing biblical Christianity is to be considered an Israelite from that moment forward. This isn't complicated to understand or accept.


The Jeremiah 31 new covenant that has been in effect since the death of Jesus, per Hebrews 8-10, is with the HOUSE of Israel, and the HOUSE of Judah, and gentiles who are believers are grafted onto the Israel Olive tree as wild branches grafted in among the natural branches per Romans 11, and Jesus is the root of the tree - thus gentile believers become spiritual Jews in the sense of being grafted into their new covenant.
I disagree.
The Jewish State of Israel in no way represents all of Israel. They are a mixed race of people, who may or may not have a Jewish heritage, who have continually denied that Jesus is the Messiah. They rely on their own strenght for protection.
Many prophesies tell of their virtual demise on the Lord's Day of His fiery wrath.

Romans 11 says ungodly Jacob becomes Godly when the deliverer, Jesus, comes out of Zion, and then all Israel alive to see Jesus return, be saved. will
 

Curtis

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The term Jew vs Israelite:

Originally, the word referred to members of the tribe of Judah, but later it described anyone from the kingdom of Judah. This would include those from the northern kingdom of Israel who moved to Judah, including Mordecai’s ancestors. Also, as those who returned after the exile settled in Judea, they were called Jews regardless of their ancestoral tribe. In the New Testament, the words, “Hebrews”, “Israelites”, and “Jews” are used interchangeably to describe the descendants of Jacob (Jn. 4:9; 2 Cor. 11:22). And this is the case today – the words “Hebrews”, “Israelites”, and “Jews” are used as synonyms.

In 722 BC, Samaria was conquered by the Assyrians and the Israelites were dispersed into surrounding nations (2 Ki. 17). As they assimilated and now have no national identity, they are known as the “Ten Lost Tribes of Israel”. However, they weren’t all lost because some remained in Israel and some moved to Judah (2 Chron. 15:9; 35:18).

In 605 BC and 598 BC, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia invaded Judah and in 586 B.C. Jerusalem was destroyed. Many of the Jews were taken to exile in Babylon. When the Persians conquered Babylon in 538 BC, the Persian King Cyrus permitted the Jews to return to their homelands and many returned to Judah. After the Babylonian exile, “Jew” replaced “Israelite” as the most widely-used term for these survivers. This was because, by that time, virtually all Israelites were descendants of the kingdom of Judah. Also, the Jewish religion was known as Judaism.

After Jerusalem was rebuilt, Judea was ruled by the Greeks, Egyptians, Syrians and Romans. Although the terms “Hebrew” and “Israelite” continued in use into the New Testament period (Rom. 9:4; 2 Cor. 11:22; Phil. 3:5), by then the term “Jew” was more commonly used. At His death, the Romans referred to Jesus as the “king of the Jews” (Mt. 27:37).

In common speech, the word “Jew” is now used to refer to all of the descendants of Jacob and those who adhere to Judaism.
 
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Stumpmaster

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Why does it say the "New Covenant" Jesus made is only for the Jews?

Hebrews 8:8 - But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
This verse doesn't say the New Covenant is only for the Jews.

Here are some references that indicate the New Covenant is with all who believe in Christ.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, (23) to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, (24) to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

2Co 3:5-6 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, (6) who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Mar 14:22-24 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." (23) Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. (24) And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Rev 5:9-10
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, (10) And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
 

Curtis

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This verse doesn't say the New Covenant is only for the Jews.

Here are some references that indicate the New Covenant is with all who believe in Christ.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, (23) to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, (24) to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

2Co 3:5-6 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, (6) who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Mar 14:22-24 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." (23) Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. (24) And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Rev 5:9-10
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, (10) And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
The covenant is with Israel and Judah, and believing gentiles are grafted in and become spiritual Israel at that time.

As an FYI, salvation only came to us gentiles to make Israel jealous.
 

Keraz

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In common speech, the word “Jew” is now used to refer to all of the descendants of Jacob and those who adhere to Judaism.
This cannot be right, as the 10 Northern tribes were prophesied to be as many as the sands of the sea.
They also received the Blessings as prophesied by Moses and Jacob.

The idea that a few from the Ten tribes who did join with Judah, were all of them, is wrong and is made only to support the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24 If that meant the Jews, then He failed His mission.
But He didn't fail; WE Christians, mainly from the Western nations accepted the Gospel and are now the Israelites of God.
 

CadyandZoe

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I disagree.
The Jewish State of Israel in no way represents all of Israel. They are a mixed race of people, who may or may not have a Jewish heritage, who have continually denied that Jesus is the Messiah. They rely on their own strenght for protection.
Many prophesies tell of their virtual demise on the Lord's Day of His fiery wrath.
What you say here does not disprove what I said earlier. To that I say this: Israel has always been a mixed race of people who continually disobeyed Yahweh and deny that Jesus is the Messiah. What else is new?
 

CadyandZoe

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Paul taught in Rom. 2:29 that all true Christians are Jews.
I disagree. Paul was not talking about Christians in that context. He was talking to those who "bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God." We understand verse 29 in that context. Among those who "bear the name Jew and rely upon the Law and boast in God . . . a Jew is one inwardly."

You should take your own advice about making generalizations and establishing a proper meaning of the term.
The meanings of words are understood within the passage in which they appear.
 

Keraz

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What you say here does not disprove what I said earlier. To that I say this: Israel has always been a mixed race of people who continually disobeyed Yahweh and deny that Jesus is the Messiah. What else is new?
Quite right.
It is also not new that they will be virtually wiped out again:
1/ Babylon, in 586 BC
2/ Rome, in 70-135 AD.
3/ Soon to happen, by the Lord Himself, as many prophesies tell us; Ezekiel 21:1-17, Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 22:1-14, Jeremiah 25:30-38, 10:18, +
 

Ronald Nolette

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I didn't say it was an historic stance of the church. I'm saying just the opposite. I'm saying that historical stances aren't valid when reexamining a text. We are looking with fresh eyes.

Well fresh eyes are not always right eyes. The verse says what it does. Reading it in a normal ususal way does not give anyone the idea that there are two covenants.
 
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