New Testament Church vs Modern Church

[Johann]

It was a church unlike the modern churches today Wynona, a "place" called THE ARK and shaped like an ark and is now a museum in Durban, South Africa.


Our Ark was the same as David Wilkerson's ministry, a place for the outcasts, drug-addicts, the sick, orphans etc. etc...a place I miss dearly.
Founded and based on Matthew 25.
I am sure there should be info on Google re "The Ark"
God bless you dear sister.

Oops,

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It was a church unlike the modern churches today Wynona, a "place" called THE ARK and shaped like an ark and is now a museum in Durban, South Africa.


Our Ark was the same as David Wilkerson's ministry, a place for the outcasts, drug-addicts, the sick, orphans etc. etc...a place I miss dearly.
Founded and based on Matthew 25.
I am sure there should be info on Google re "The Ark"
God bless you dear sister.

Our authority is Scripture and not archeology and lots of guess work.
God is not going to ask me if I trusted archeology or church history made by men, but he is going to ask me if I trusted His Word.
While I don’t think God is going to condemn me for gathering with Christians in other places besides a home, the point here is that we should want to do what the early church did according to His Word clearly and plainly says (To honor God and His Word).

Today, we are in a world where Christians simply don’t like to hear all parts of the Bible anymore. They only believe in parts they like to hear from their own perspective. Most are just doing their own thing. The Bible is just kind tacked on to their self absorbent life, and it’s really not about Jesus and or living for Him. For many, it‘s about another Jesus who gives believers a license to sin on some level. The idea of moving away from what the Scriptures say even on the house church issue (in favor of archeology and guess work) is just one small part of the problem.

 

[Johann]

The idea of moving away from what the Scriptures say even on the house church issue (in favor of archeology and guess work) is just one small part of the problem.

Problem here is, since you are a KJV-Onlyist, and I don't or are not being facetious here, I read or listen to a lot of information, especially Jewish sources.
But brother, you know it all, there is no one to teach you, you can pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, well done!
Sometimes a member might post a post and it just resonates with my spirit, yours however, sounds a bit stale, reminds me of the old NG ekklesia, coming together early, yawning, sing a couple of hymns, a bit of preaching/teaching, shaking hands on the way out, going down to the house, kick off the shoes and promptly turn on the TV.
The battle is spiritual, so eyes offa me, since your back is exposed, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, don't work on mine.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Problem here is, since you are a KJV-Onlyist,

Actually, I prefer to call myself a Core-KJB type Christian.
The King James Bible is my core or foundation, but that does not mean I don’t use other Modern Translations, and or look to the original languages.
Hence, why I prefer now to not be called KJV Only. For KJV Onlyists tend to only use the King James Bible and nothing else. I believe Modern bibles and the original languages can be helpful in understanding what the KJB says.

and I don't or are not being facetious here, I read or listen to a lot of information, especially Jewish sources.

The problem is going outside of what God’s Word says. Ever read 1 Kings 13:11-30 before?

But brother, you know it all, there is no one to teach you, you can pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, well done!

This is just a baseless ad hominem. There are plenty of times I have changed my mind on what God’s Word says on various topics. Just check out this thread here.

What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

So no. I am not claiming to be an infallible when it comes to learning. I believe it is a process just like Sanctification.

Sometimes a member might post a post and it just resonates with my spirit, yours however, sounds a bit stale, reminds me of the old NG ekklesia, coming together early, yawning, sing a couple of hymns, a bit of preaching/teaching, shaking hands on the way out, going down to the house, kick off the shoes and promptly turn on the TV.
The battle is spiritual, so eyes offa me, since your back is exposed, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, don't work on mine.

It matters not what you think of me. What mattes is believing the Word of God. I am going to expose the error of those who say they can sin and still be saved on some level. Is there forgiveness if we do happen to sin? Yes. We have to confess and forsake our sin. Believers are to overcome sin at some point in this life. Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Ever read 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 before? Can you tell me how you believe these verses? Like most here, I probably will not get any real answer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Problem here is, since you are a KJV-Onlyist, and I don't or are not being facetious here, I read or listen to a lot of information, especially Jewish sources.
But brother, you know it all, there is no one to teach you, you can pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, well done!
Sometimes a member might post a post and it just resonates with my spirit, yours however, sounds a bit stale, reminds me of the old NG ekklesia, coming together early, yawning, sing a couple of hymns, a bit of preaching/teaching, shaking hands on the way out, going down to the house, kick off the shoes and promptly turn on the TV.
The battle is spiritual, so eyes offa me, since your back is exposed, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, don't work on mine.

Please show me in Scripture where believers are able look at outside sources when it comes to building the faith (Besides God’s Word).

Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

Does the Bible say faith comes by hearing Jewish traditions or archeology?

Yes, or no?

Are you out to just invent your own version of faith?
For me: I am looking to only God’s Word to build my faith.

 

[Johann]

Please show me in Scripture where believers are able look at outside sources when it comes to building the faith (Besides God’s Word). Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

Does the Bible say faith comes by hearing Jewish traditions or archeology?

Yes, or no?

Are you out to just invent your own version of faith?
For me: I am looking to only God’s Word to build my faith.

This is the way I read and study, anything wrong with that?

 

[Johann]

I believe Modern bibles and the original languages can be helpful in understanding what the KJB says.

Give me a verse and the "original language" of it...
מי האמין לשׁמעתנו וזרוע יהוה על־מי נגלתה׃

ויעל כיונק לפניו וכשׁרשׁ מארץ ציה לא־תאר לו ולא הדר ונראהו ולא־מראה ונחמדהו׃


נבזה וחדל אישׁים אישׁ מכאבות וידוע חלי וכמסתר פנים ממנו נבזה ולא חשׁבנהו׃
אכן חלינו הוא נשׂא ומכאבינו סבלם ואנחנו חשׁבנהו נגוע מכה אלהים ומענה׃
והוא מחלל מפשׁענו מדכא מעונתינו מוסר שׁלומנו עליו ובחברתו נרפא־לנו׃
כלנו כצאן תעינו אישׁ לדרכו פנינו ויהוה הפגיע בו את עון כלנו׃
נגשׂ והוא נענה ולא יפתח־פיו כשׂה לטבח יובל וכרחל לפני גזזיה נאלמה ולא יפתח פיו׃
מעצר וממשׁפט לקח ואת־דורו מי ישׂוחח כי נגזר מארץ חיים מפשׁע עמי נגע למו׃

Would you say this is Yisrael, or Yeshua, since there is a heated debate on this chapter, not trying to impress you, nor being arrogant, but as you say.....I believe Modern bibles and the original languages can be helpful in understanding what the KJB says.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the way I read and study, anything wrong with that?

Yes. It’s a problem because believing outside sources can take precedence over what the Word of God says.
It goes on all the time. People go by their experience or thoughts to determine their walk with God and they do not look to the Bible as their sole source for that. Archeology and Jewish traditions are invented by men. They are not inspired sources from GOD Himself, and so mingling in these things with the faith can change the faith. You may not think it does, but that is there end goal and purpose. Like in the video you posted, it was a lot of speculation involving archaeology. Some guy can just speculate something else next week and you will just suck it up if it sounds good to you. I prefer God’s Word alone as my authority for the faith because I am not going to be judged on whether I accepted Jewish traditions or archaeology.

 

[Johann]

.I believe Modern bibles and the original languages can be helpful in understanding what the KJB says.

[/QUOTE]
While you scratch your head re the "original language..." do you know how your bible came about?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Give me a verse and the "original language" of it...
מי האמין לשׁמעתנו וזרוע יהוה על־מי נגלתה׃

ויעל כיונק לפניו וכשׁרשׁ מארץ ציה לא־תאר לו ולא הדר ונראהו ולא־מראה ונחמדהו׃


נבזה וחדל אישׁים אישׁ מכאבות וידוע חלי וכמסתר פנים ממנו נבזה ולא חשׁבנהו׃
אכן חלינו הוא נשׂא ומכאבינו סבלם ואנחנו חשׁבנהו נגוע מכה אלהים ומענה׃
והוא מחלל מפשׁענו מדכא מעונתינו מוסר שׁלומנו עליו ובחברתו נרפא־לנו׃
כלנו כצאן תעינו אישׁ לדרכו פנינו ויהוה הפגיע בו את עון כלנו׃
נגשׂ והוא נענה ולא יפתח־פיו כשׂה לטבח יובל וכרחל לפני גזזיה נאלמה ולא יפתח פיו׃
מעצר וממשׁפט לקח ואת־דורו מי ישׂוחח כי נגזר מארץ חיים מפשׁע עמי נגע למו׃

Lets not pretend like you are an expert on the original languages written by Moses (Biblical Hebrew), and by the apostle Paul (Biblical Greek).
Nobody survived to carry on these languages as a part of living breathing culture in written form and translators (or scholars) are only guessing as to what these languages are saying. The only thing we can trust is God’s Word. If we trust His Word, we will believe that His words have been preserved today based upon our believing verses like Psalms 12:6-7 (Which you and many today do not believe).

Would you say this is Yisrael, or Yeshua, since there is a heated debate on this chapter, not trying to impress you, nor being arrogant, but as you say.....I believe Modern bibles and the original languages can be helpful in understanding what the KJB says.

I don’t speak or write the original languages and neither do you. You are only pretending to know them based on what some other guy said based on his guess work. The only thing we can trust is what God’s Word says now. God does not require us to learn some ancient language in order to know His will. If you believe otherwise, then show me in Scripture. God spoke to the people in their own tongue for them to understand. God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Give me a verse and the "original language" of it...
מי האמין לשׁמעתנו וזרוע יהוה על־מי נגלתה׃

ויעל כיונק לפניו וכשׁרשׁ מארץ ציה לא־תאר לו ולא הדר ונראהו ולא־מראה ונחמדהו׃


נבזה וחדל אישׁים אישׁ מכאבות וידוע חלי וכמסתר פנים ממנו נבזה ולא חשׁבנהו׃
אכן חלינו הוא נשׂא ומכאבינו סבלם ואנחנו חשׁבנהו נגוע מכה אלהים ומענה׃
והוא מחלל מפשׁענו מדכא מעונתינו מוסר שׁלומנו עליו ובחברתו נרפא־לנו׃
כלנו כצאן תעינו אישׁ לדרכו פנינו ויהוה הפגיע בו את עון כלנו׃
נגשׂ והוא נענה ולא יפתח־פיו כשׂה לטבח יובל וכרחל לפני גזזיה נאלמה ולא יפתח פיו׃
מעצר וממשׁפט לקח ואת־דורו מי ישׂוחח כי נגזר מארץ חיים מפשׁע עמי נגע למו׃

Would you say this is Yisrael, or Yeshua, since there is a heated debate on this chapter, not trying to impress you, nor being arrogant, but as you say.....I believe Modern bibles and the original languages can be helpful in understanding what the KJB says.

Also, which Biblical Hebrew manuscripts and Greek manuscripts do you follow?
They all do not say the same exact thing. Do you just throw a dart randomly?
That’s why I cannot take you seriously. You don’t have a final Word of authority.
It could be Jewish traditions or archaeology or whatever fits your fancy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the way I read and study, anything wrong with that?

Remember when Jesus said to the Pharisees that they make void the Word of God by their tradition? (See: Mark 7:13).

 

[Johann]

Some guy can just speculate something else next week and you will just suck it up if it sounds good to you.

No offense, I wonder how you will fare against a rabbi in a debate/dialogue on, say, YESHAYAH 53, or an Imam re the deity of Christ.
God loves variety, don't you think? You might be the finger in the soma, and me the toenail...


1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
1Co 12:18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
1Co 12:19 If all were a single member, where would the body be?
1Co 12:20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
1Co 12:21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
1Co 12:22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
1Co 12:23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
1Co 12:24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,
1Co 12:25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.

You see, you can't be me an I can't be you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While you scratch your head re the "original language..." do you know how your bible came about?

[/QUOTE]

I am aware of Bible history. But that is not my concern. It could be true, and it could be false. My faith does not rest in whether I get Bible history correct (Which is reported by men). Do I believe much of Bible history is true? Sure, it can potentially be true. But I don’t build my faith upon Bible history reported by men. I build my faith in God’s Word (the Bible) as it stands on it’s own. I don’t look to outside sources. I say this because outside sources or traditions can color or change our perception of believing God’s Word. The proof is in Jesus saying that the Pharisees traditions made void the Word of God in Mark 7:13.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 basically says all Scripture is profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness so that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work. Now, if Scripture (all Scripture) can make us perfect unto every good work, then what do you need all that other junk for? You don’t need Bible history to build your faith or to be perfect unto every good work. You don’t need Jewish traditions to be perfect unto every good work. All Scripture is profitable… to make you perfect unto every good work. The question is: Do you believe the Bible here? My guess is you don’t believe it. No offense, but it appears like you want your outside sources and videos and extra biblical knowledge. You want the scholar to guide you. It is appealing to you. I want God and His Word alone because that is what I know God wants from me (Based on what His Word says).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No offense, I wonder how you will fare against a rabbi in a debate/dialogue on, say, YESHAYAH 53, or an Imam re the deity of Christ.
God loves variety, don't you think? You might be the finger in the soma, and me the toenail...

If he speaks against the preserved Word of God for today (the KJB) which was translated from the original languages, then there is no debate.
There are Hebrew scholars who do not believe the Bible was perfectly preserved in English. But this would be a disbelief of Psalms 12:6-7.
Remember, the Jews rejected their Messiah, so why are you going to them for spiritual knowledge?

1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
1Co 12:18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
1Co 12:19 If all were a single member, where would the body be?
1Co 12:20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
1Co 12:21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
1Co 12:22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
1Co 12:23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
1Co 12:24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,
1Co 12:25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.

You see, you can't be me an I can't be you.

Passages like 1 Corinthians 12:13-25 have to be read in context to other verses in Scripture. You cannot build a theology for today based off one or two passages. The whole counsel of God’s Word needs to be taken into account. I say this because the divisions is something that happened in the early church. Most today are not even really following the Lord Jesus. Point me to a church today that even closely resembles what the early faithful church looked like. You won’t find it because we are living in the last days where men have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof.

 

[Wynona]

Have contacted two or three house churches in the area to see if we can try one out.

 

[Johann]

Also, which Biblical Hebrew manuscripts and Greek manuscripts do you follow?
They all do not say the same exact thing. Do you just throw a dart randomly?
That’s why I cannot take you seriously. You don’t have a final Word of authority.
It could be Jewish traditions or archaeology or whatever fits your fancy.

Correct, I don't have the final d'var of authority, but you do, right?
It goes like this...you say "you" shouldn't" be teaching Old Testament history and all that ol' archaeologies...sorry, you ain't a scholar, since there are many great scholars and academics to teach this stuff properly since they are properly qualified to do so, that's why I listen. Hence, you are doing yourself a disservice.
Anyone who presents a view heteros from the view you yourself hold must be lacking epiginosko/thorough knowledge, well, not true.
And as to the Hebrew you can't read, which is the authorative Hebrew and Aramaic text in Rabbinic Judaism?
If you don't know do some research.

 

[Wynona]

@Johann @Bible Highlighter can you both have that discussion somewhere else?

The topic is New Testament Church vs Modern Church.

 

[Johann]

@Johann @Bible Highlighter can you both have that discussion somewhere else?

The topic is New Testament Church vs Modern Church.

Will do Wynona.
God bless

 

[marks]

You will not.
Don't ignore that sinking feeling.
I wish I was wrong, but they're probably not going to be open to correction. They think they're supposed to be the know-it-alls. I'm not being mean. They carry a very real burden of always having to be right. And to admit they are wrong tears away at the legitimacy of their ministry. Yes, the leadership should know more than the rest of us, but they also have to be learning with us too! I had a pastor who was like that. He didn't have to know it all, and he didn't. But what he did know was very useful and effective to the body. His own teachings taught him, too. They say when teaching others you are your best student. That's a fact check true. I'm not a teacher, but one time I labored intensely over a teaching/discussion I wanted to lead about Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac. I ended up being my best student.

I've seen the opposite myself, godly men who are pastors who can receive that kind of input.

I agree, though, pay attention to these feelings, but not exclusively so. In general, I think we will know whether or not a church leader can be freely spoken to.

Much love!