New Testament Morality

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Wrangler

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The story of the woman who was found guilty of adultery in John 7:53 - 8:11 is one in which Jesus allows a woman who was known to have committed a punishable crime to go free. That doesn't sound like someone who thinks that all criminals must be penalized.
Oh? There is a sentence called "time served." What purpose does this serve?

An interesting aside is how much of a trap this was for Jesus. The reason is that under Jewish law, both involved in adultery were subject to immediate stoning to death. She was supposedly caught in the act. So, where is the male adulterer? It would not be right to condemn one but not the other in Jewish law.
 
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Because your criticism is against Christ and his righteous statement about forgiveness.

There is no comparison in authority over me between Christ and the Pope. Christ has all authority over me. The Pope has none. So, this makes your Appeal to Authority absurd, in the extreme.

And you failed to cite the actual quote of the Pope in context.

I cite the Pope because he represents the largest single bloc of Christians on the planet and because the Catholic Catechism is the most extensive defense of Christianity. It's lame, but at least it's extensive. Your views represent a minority opinion in the global world of Christianity.

Here's a link to the portion of the Catholic Catechism that specifically relates to the Christian Virtues:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

You and I both agree that forgiveness is required for salvation. We disagree about how the word "forgive" is to be interpreted, but we also both disagree with the Pope and therefore with the majority of Christians on the planet.

And that's all that the Non-Christian followers of this Non-Christian forum need to know. Christians can't even agree among themselves as to what a follower of Jesus must do to be "saved." You have illustrated that fact very clearly. Thanks!
 

Wrangler

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You and I both agree that forgiveness is required for salvation.
We cannot agree with the requirements of salvation when you do not even believe in God.
Christians can't even agree among themselves as to what a follower of Jesus must do to be "saved." You have illustrated that fact very clearly.
I anticipated this is where you were headed. Another in a relentless string of illogical Strawmans and Poisoning the Well propositions and false conclusions.

There are at least 2 things wrong with this. 1st, obtaining a pre-requisite (forgiveness) does not automatically mean one has successfully passed the class (salvation).

2nd, there is a Genus and Differentia. To identify that there are denominational differences at the Differentia level does not mean that there is disagreement at the Genus level.

And for you, all this is far above your grade level. You have not met the most basic pre-requisite, belief in God. Repent. Face you maker. Then all good things flow.
 

Wrangler

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The opening post is quite the dissertation. For future reference others might be more willing to read something much shorter and then expand from there.
He’s not really interested in having a conversation but lecturing us foolish Christian’s for not having the 1st clue about our own sacred text. But he is willing to set us straight.

I’ve humbly suggested he consider how the lord could be right. The ignorant ignore. He does not have ears to hear. His spirit is dead. His mind is closed.

Notice how many of my posts and questions he has ignored. I’ll continue to pray for him.
 
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Illuminator

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You:


Okay, so here's something you said in your first post:


Well that's pretty interesting. According to the Catholic Pope, justice is a Christian virtue, but forgiveness is not. So the Pope seems focused on justice; why aren't you? You appear to believe that forgiveness is a virtue of some kind-- which is the opposite of what the Pope believes. In fact the Pope doesn't even think that the idea that Christians should forgive the sins of others is a subject fit for discussion. Look up the word "forgive" in the subject index at the very back of the print version of the Catholic Catechism-- you will find no entries!

So you and the Pope don't seem to agree on how the word "forgive" should be interpreted. Before you accuse me of failing to understand the meaning of the teachings of Jesus, maybe you should get your own opinions in alignment with those of the Pope. Unless you think the Pope is completely wrong about the meaning of the Bible...
"...The woman does not claim to be the victim of “a false accusation”, she does not defend herself, saying: “I didn’t commit adultery”. No, “she acknowledges her sin” and she responds to Jesus, saying: “No one has condemned me, Lord”. Then Jesus says to her: “Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again, in order not to pass through a time of disgrace, in order not to experience such shame, in order not to offend God, in order not to sully the beautiful relationship between God and his people”.

“Jesus forgives. But there is something more here than forgiveness. For as a confessor Jesus goes beyond the law, for “the law said that she had to be punished”. Indeed, as the Pope noted, Jesus “was pure and could have throne the first stone”. But he “went beyond this. He doesn’t tell her that adultery is not a sin, but he doesn’t condemn her with the law”. This, the Pope explained, is “the mystery of Jesus’ mercy ... in being merciful Jesus” goes beyond “the law which commanded that she be stoned”. “Mercy,” the Pope explained, “is something which is difficult to understand: it doesn’t eliminate sin”, for “it is God’s forgiveness” that does this. “Mercy is the manner in which God forgives”. For “Jesus could have said: ‘I forgive you, go!’ as he had said to the paralytic: your sins are forgiven!”. In this situation, however, “Jesus goes further” and counsels the woman “to sin no more”.

“How many of us would deserve to be condemned! And it would even be just. Yet he forgives!”. How?, the Pope asked. “With this mercy”, which “does not eliminate sin: it is God’s forgiveness that eliminates it”, whereas “mercy goes goes beyond”. Pope Francis then compared God’s mercy to the sun: “we look at the sky, the many stars, but when the morning sun comes, we don’t see the stars. Such is the mercy of God: it is a great light of love, of tenderness”. For “God doesn’t forgive with a decree but with a caress”. He forgives by “caressing the wounds caused by our sins, because he is involved in forgiveness, is involved in our salvation”.

This is Jesus’ style as a confessor, the Pope said. He does not humiliate the adulterous woman. “He does not say to her: what did you do, when did you do it, how did you do it and with whom did you do it!”. Instead, he tells her “to go and sin no more: God’s mercy is great, God’s mercy is great: forgiving us by caressing us”.
I. What is This Sacrament Called?

1423 It is called the sacrament of conversion because it makes sacramentally present Jesus' call to conversion, the first step in returning to the Father5 from whom one has strayed by sin.
It is called the sacrament of Penance, since it consecrates the Christian sinner's personal and ecclesial steps of conversion, penance, and satisfaction.

  • 1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament.
  • In a profound sense it is also a "confession" - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man.
  • It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."6
  • It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the love of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God."7 He who lives by God's merciful love is ready to respond to the Lord's call: "Go; first be reconciled to your brother."8

Here's something else you said in your original posting:

Of course a criminal will be penalized? A criminal would only be penalized if someone reports his or her actions to the authorities. Your interpretation of Matthew 6:14-15 seems to be that Jesus expected his followers to reconcile themselves with whatever sins might have been committed-- but that those sins must still be reported to the authorities so that the offender can be arrested and put on trial. Here's a relevant quotation of Jesus from the book of Luke:

Does that sound like someone who thinks that when someone sins against you and then repents, you are supposed to tell them you forgive them-- and then immediately dial 911 to make sure they get arrested? How would the offender described in the passage above be able to return seven times in one day if he had already been arrested? It doesn't make sense.

The story of the woman who was found guilty of adultery in John 7:53 - 8:11 is one in which Jesus allows a woman who was known to have committed a punishable crime to go free. That doesn't sound like someone who thinks that all criminals must be penalized.
I think you are confusing justice with forgiveness. Justice is paying fines "to the last penny". Forgiveness is letting go of a hurt. Sometimes it takes years. It doesn't depend on the person being forgiven. It makes no difference whether or not they accept it, or even if they are dead. But there is healing in forgiving someone or something.
 
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I think you are confusing justice with forgiveness. Justice is paying fines "to the last penny". Forgiveness is letting go of a hurt. Sometimes it takes years. It doesn't depend on the person being forgiven. It makes no difference whether or not they accept it, or even if they are dead. But there is healing in forgiving someone or something.

The Miriam-Webster dictionary's first definition of "forgive" is:

to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON

So "pardon" is a synonym for "forgive." Here's the same dictionary's second definition of pardon:

the excusing of an offense without exacting a penalty

When you say that "Forgiveness is letting go of a hurt," that's part of what forgive means. But to forgive someone also implies that you will not seek punishment.
 

St. SteVen

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Earlier we found that Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive each sin infinitely many times.
Hang on.
I don't think we established that WE are to forgive blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, if we are even able to define it.

Thanks for this topic, BTW.

I don't buy the standard apologetic about what the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is.
The common interpretation is that the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unbelief. (the only unforgivable sin)
But early in the chapter Jesus indicates what it is. Which isn't terribly helpful, but is very clear to me.

The Pharisees said that he was casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub.
I beleive the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is atributing the work of the Spirit to Beelzebub. (the Devil)

Matthew 12:24 NIV
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

Matthew 12:28 NIV
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Matthew 12:31 NIV
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
 
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Hang on.
I don't think we established that WE are to forgive blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, if we are even able to define it.

Okay, well I agree that Jesus said-- in the passage Matthew 12:31 that you cited-- that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven. Isn't that what I said? Here are my words that you cited:

...Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

So I guess we agree that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven?

If you read a bit further in Matthew 12 you will encounter the following:

"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
(Matthew 12:31 - 32, NRSVue)

There Jesus was distinguishing between blasphemy against himself-- the Son of Man-- and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That seems rather odd given that in the passage Matthew 12:28 that you cited Jesus said that he was able to drive out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit. Together these passages appear to imply that Jesus did not think of himself as being identical to the Holy Spirit since he apparently believed that you could blaspheme him without also blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
 
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St. SteVen

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Jesus was distinguishing between blasphemy against himself-- the Son of Man-- and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That seems rather odd given that in the passage Matthew 12:28 that you cited Jesus said that he was able to drive out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit. Together these passages appear to imply that Jesus did not think of himself as being identical to the Holy Spirit since he apparently believed that you could blaspheme him without also blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a mystery. IMHO
Not sure I would advise building on that foundation.

As I understand it, the standard explanation given for the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is built
on the statement that it is unforgivable. Which is boiled down to, "What is the unforgivable sin?"

The conclusion being that the ONLY sin that is unforgivable is the "sin" of unbelief.
Unbelievers will not be forgiven. I find this explanation to be unsatisfactory.

The explanation is arrived at outside of the passage itself.
It revolves around the question: "What is the unforgivable sin?"

But as I read it, Jesus makes it clear. Attributing the work of God (the Holy Spirit) to Beelzebub. (Satan)
Which leaves us with a mystery. Why is this an unforgivable sin? And what does that mean?
I do not know.
 

Illuminator

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The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is a mystery. IMHO
Not sure I would advise building on that foundation.

As I understand it, the standard explanation given for the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is built
on the statement that it is unforgivable. Which is boiled down to, "What is the unforgivable sin?"

The conclusion being that the ONLY sin that is unforgivable is the "sin" of unbelief.
Unbelievers will not be forgiven. I find this explanation to be unsatisfactory.

The explanation is arrived at outside of the passage itself.
It revolves around the question: "What is the unforgivable sin?"

But as I read it, Jesus makes it clear. Attributing the work of God (the Holy Spirit) to Beelzebub. (Satan)
Which leaves us with a mystery. Why is this an unforgivable sin? And what does that mean?
I do not know.
A mystery is knowing some things about something, but not everything. I know frozen water forms ice crystals when condensed inside your window, but it is a mystery to examine up close the immense beauty of frost, the intricate designs made by Jack Frost's paint brush. It's not lying and it is not indoctrinating children into idolatry. Children grow into an awareness gradually, just as the Church grew into awareness gradually. The Trinity is a mystery: we know is One God in Three Persons, but nobody can figure it all out. A mystery transcends human reason, but does not defy it.

Suppose you, or someone you know, had a miraculous healing; an event that baffles doctors. You believe in faith that God did it. Who wouldn't? Well, you'd be surprised who wouldn't. Atheists have a way of 'explaining away' what doesn't fit in their materialist world view, but I don't think every atheist can be held accountable for their lack of faith. Many are angry at God for not existing. :contemplate:

To me, the unforgivable sin is giving credit to Satan the work of God, so we are in agreement so far...
. Years ago, I was watching a video: John Salsa was debating Matt Slick. Matt was asked what he thought about the miracles of Fatima and Lourdes. He said, and I quote,"...it is the work of the devil..." Is Matt Slick hellhound?

I do not know.
 
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St. SteVen

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Many are angry at God for not existing.
Atheists are angry at God for not existing?
That's an interesting observation. What's up with that?
To me, the unforgivable sin is giving credit to Satan the work of God, so we are in agreement so far...
Let me clarify. I was trying to say that the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is giving credit to Satan the work of God.
Jesus said the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was unforgivable. (in this age, or the next)
Sorry if that sounds like double talk. Just trying to keep the order of events straight.

Notice only two ages are mentioned. He did not say for eternity. Each age is a finite amount of time.
An age begins and an age ends when a new one begins.
 

Gottservant

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In Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus is reported to have said the following:

[...]
The universal forgiveness teaching of Jesus may be revered as an unattainable ideal, but it must never be codified in law or social policy.
You are conflating the ideal, with the practice.

What is moral, is neither of these things (neither ideal nor practice).

The model Christianity has, when facing death, is Stephen's: he exclaimed "Father, do not hold this sin against them" when they stoned him - every Christian who dies, in some way exonerates the sinner before they die.

I forgive you, for overlooking that, indeed if you insist I need to die because I am behaving unattainably, I will still forgive you.
 

Jim B

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In Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus is reported to have said the following:



That’s very clear. The only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith is not required, just forgiveness.

Which sins must be forgiven? Jesus answered that question too:



Every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to be forgiven. That means murder, rape, incest, sodomy, assault, battery, robbery, fraud, slander, libel--- all those sins and many more must be forgiven.

In the above passage Jesus is talking about the sins that he will forgive, both in this life and in the afterlife. Surely Jesus doesn’t expect his followers to forgive the same sins, does he? Well, yes actually-- he does:



Jesus expects his followers to be as perfect as God. If God forgives all sins but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then so must his followers.

And how many times must a sin be forgiven? That question was answered elsewhere in the book of Matthew:



Some translations render the last number as seventy times seven, or 490. But whether it’s 77 times or 490 times, that’s a lot of forgiveness! I would argue that Jesus never expected his followers to keep track of how many times they have forgiven a sin. The number 77, as I see it, was never intended to be understood as a real number, but should instead be interpreted as “a number that is so huge that no one could ever forgive a sin that many times.” That is, the number 77 is the First Century CE equivalent of “infinity.”

So Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive them infinitely many times. The Lord’s Prayer underscores the importance of forgiveness by asking his followers to think about it every day:



Clearly forgiveness is the crux of the morality that Jesus taught.

Or, rather-- that’s the morality of the version of Jesus one finds in the book of Matthew. The Jesus of the book of John never once says that his followers must forgive the sins of other people if they are to earn the forgiveness of God!

Christians have sided with the John Jesus and have ignored the morality of the Matthew Jesus. The Catholic Catechism never once cites or even references Matthew 5:48, Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 12:31-32, or Matthew 18:21-23. Furthermore, the Catechism lists the seven Christian virtues as follows:



Note that forgiveness is not one of the listed virtues. Matthew 6:14-15 says that you must forgive the sins of others if you wish to be forgiven by God, and yet the Catholic Church doesn’t think that forgiveness is a virtue!

Perhaps you might think that forgiveness is simply a subtype of charity. No! Here’s the first definition of “forgive” in the Miriam-Webster dictionary:



That is, forgiveness implies an intent not to prosecute. And here’s the first definition of “charity” from the same dictionary:



Forgiveness is extended to someone who has committed a sin; charity is extended to those in need, regardless of whether they have committed an offense. So they are two very different actions.

Earlier we found that Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive each sin infinitely many times. That seems pretty ridiculous. If an armed man forces his way into my house and kills my spouse before my eyes, I would not be willing to simply shrug it off and tell the man “I forgive you.” No! I would want to report his actions to the authorities and have him arrested so that he can stand trial for murder!

To pardon someone means to exempt them from punishment. So according to Jesus, not only am I supposed to cease to feel resentment, but if my spouse’s killer were to return to my house I would be obligated to reaffirm my pardon of his actions. I must never even seek to have him prosecuted!

Here is a very well known passage from the book of Matthew that shows just how much Jesus expected of his followers:



It’s difficult to understand how loving someone like Adolf Hitler, or Kim Jong Un, or Mao Zedong, or Vladamir Putin could improve the world condition. But Jesus wasn’t trying to make the world a better place in which to live. He was only trying to prepare his followers for an eternity in paradise.

The story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37 is a wonderful tale of compassion and generosity. The Beatitudes in Matthew 5:1-11 show compassion for the downtrodden and oppressed. A story about the last judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 shows that Jesus expects the people of earth to extend charity to those in need. And the story of the woman accused of adultery in John 7:53 – 8:11 shows that forgiveness, used judiciously, can bring about a renewal of spirit and a corresponding change of behavior.

But universal forgiveness of any and all crimes is simply not practical in a modern society. That particular aspect of the moral teachings of Jesus is just far too idealistic. A society that forgives all crimes will effectively be rewarding criminals. The end result of such a policy will inevitably be an escalation of crime. Jesus may have believed that his followers would be so few in number that the policy of forgiving every sin would never be disruptive to the social order. But in the United States about 65% of the population considers itself to be Christian, so that notion is no longer tenable. The universal forgiveness teaching of Jesus may be revered as an unattainable ideal, but it must never be codified in law or social policy.

Saying that "The only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith is not required, just forgiveness" is contrary to Scripture. One does not earn forgiveness, i.e., bribing God, by works.

John 3:16-18, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Matthew 9:2,"And some people were carrying to him a paralyzed man lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, child; your sins are forgiven.” Whose sins did the paralyzed man forgive?

Matthew 26:27-28, "Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Ephesians 1:7, "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

James 5:15, "The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up, and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven."

1 John 2:12, "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven on account of his name."

God cannot be bribed.
 

Jim B

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In Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus is reported to have said the following:



That’s very clear. The only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith is not required, just forgiveness.

Which sins must be forgiven? Jesus answered that question too:



Every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to be forgiven. That means murder, rape, incest, sodomy, assault, battery, robbery, fraud, slander, libel--- all those sins and many more must be forgiven.

In the above passage Jesus is talking about the sins that he will forgive, both in this life and in the afterlife. Surely Jesus doesn’t expect his followers to forgive the same sins, does he? Well, yes actually-- he does:



Jesus expects his followers to be as perfect as God. If God forgives all sins but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then so must his followers.

And how many times must a sin be forgiven? That question was answered elsewhere in the book of Matthew:



Some translations render the last number as seventy times seven, or 490. But whether it’s 77 times or 490 times, that’s a lot of forgiveness! I would argue that Jesus never expected his followers to keep track of how many times they have forgiven a sin. The number 77, as I see it, was never intended to be understood as a real number, but should instead be interpreted as “a number that is so huge that no one could ever forgive a sin that many times.” That is, the number 77 is the First Century CE equivalent of “infinity.”

So Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive them infinitely many times. The Lord’s Prayer underscores the importance of forgiveness by asking his followers to think about it every day:



Clearly forgiveness is the crux of the morality that Jesus taught.

Or, rather-- that’s the morality of the version of Jesus one finds in the book of Matthew. The Jesus of the book of John never once says that his followers must forgive the sins of other people if they are to earn the forgiveness of God!

Christians have sided with the John Jesus and have ignored the morality of the Matthew Jesus. The Catholic Catechism never once cites or even references Matthew 5:48, Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 12:31-32, or Matthew 18:21-23. Furthermore, the Catechism lists the seven Christian virtues as follows:



Note that forgiveness is not one of the listed virtues. Matthew 6:14-15 says that you must forgive the sins of others if you wish to be forgiven by God, and yet the Catholic Church doesn’t think that forgiveness is a virtue!

Perhaps you might think that forgiveness is simply a subtype of charity. No! Here’s the first definition of “forgive” in the Miriam-Webster dictionary:



That is, forgiveness implies an intent not to prosecute. And here’s the first definition of “charity” from the same dictionary:



Forgiveness is extended to someone who has committed a sin; charity is extended to those in need, regardless of whether they have committed an offense. So they are two very different actions.

Earlier we found that Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive each sin infinitely many times. That seems pretty ridiculous. If an armed man forces his way into my house and kills my spouse before my eyes, I would not be willing to simply shrug it off and tell the man “I forgive you.” No! I would want to report his actions to the authorities and have him arrested so that he can stand trial for murder!

To pardon someone means to exempt them from punishment. So according to Jesus, not only am I supposed to cease to feel resentment, but if my spouse’s killer were to return to my house I would be obligated to reaffirm my pardon of his actions. I must never even seek to have him prosecuted!

Here is a very well known passage from the book of Matthew that shows just how much Jesus expected of his followers:



It’s difficult to understand how loving someone like Adolf Hitler, or Kim Jong Un, or Mao Zedong, or Vladamir Putin could improve the world condition. But Jesus wasn’t trying to make the world a better place in which to live. He was only trying to prepare his followers for an eternity in paradise.

The story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37 is a wonderful tale of compassion and generosity. The Beatitudes in Matthew 5:1-11 show compassion for the downtrodden and oppressed. A story about the last judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 shows that Jesus expects the people of earth to extend charity to those in need. And the story of the woman accused of adultery in John 7:53 – 8:11 shows that forgiveness, used judiciously, can bring about a renewal of spirit and a corresponding change of behavior.

But universal forgiveness of any and all crimes is simply not practical in a modern society. That particular aspect of the moral teachings of Jesus is just far too idealistic. A society that forgives all crimes will effectively be rewarding criminals. The end result of such a policy will inevitably be an escalation of crime. Jesus may have believed that his followers would be so few in number that the policy of forgiving every sin would never be disruptive to the social order. But in the United States about 65% of the population considers itself to be Christian, so that notion is no longer tenable. The universal forgiveness teaching of Jesus may be revered as an unattainable ideal, but it must never be codified in law or social policy.

Saying that "The only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith is not required, just forgiveness" is contrary to Scripture. One does not earn forgiveness, i.e., bribing God, by works.

John 3:16-18, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Matthew 9:2,"And some people were carrying to him a paralyzed man lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, child; your sins are forgiven.” Whose sins did the paralyzed man forgive?

Matthew 26:27-28, "Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Ephesians 1:7, "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

James 5:15, "The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up, and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven."

1 John 2:12, "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven on account of his name."

God cannot be bribed.
 
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amigo de christo

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Oh? There is a sentence called "time served." What purpose does this serve?

An interesting aside is how much of a trap this was for Jesus. The reason is that under Jewish law, both involved in adultery were subject to immediate stoning to death. She was supposedly caught in the act. So, where is the male adulterer? It would not be right to condemn one but not the other in Jewish law.
Not only that , but according to Roman law they could not just put one to death .
THEY were trying to trap CHRIST and then report him .
BUT JESUS came to show them and the world something . A that HE came to save us
And B that ONLY GOD had the right to take the life of the sinner , not us . GOD .
 
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amigo de christo

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Saying that "The only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith is not required, just forgiveness" is contrary to Scripture. One does not earn forgiveness, i.e., bribing God, by works.

John 3:16-18, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Matthew 9:2,"And some people were carrying to him a paralyzed man lying on a stretcher. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, child; your sins are forgiven.” Whose sins did the paralyzed man forgive?

Matthew 26:27-28, "Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Ephesians 1:7, "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace."

James 5:15, "The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up, and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven."

1 John 2:12, "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven on account of his name."

God cannot be bribed.
Good thing you spotted through that one . They trying to teach a religion
that aint gonna save folks . Without FAITH , yeah ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD .
 
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Saying that "The only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith is not required, just forgiveness" is contrary to Scripture. One does not earn forgiveness, i.e., bribing God, by works.

Okay, then how do you interpret that passage from the book of Matthew? Here it is again:

"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
(Matthew 6:14-15, NRSVue)

You cited a bunch of other passages from the Bible apparently on the assumption that all of the passages in the Bible agree with each other. They don't. Paul even contradicted himself! Here's Paul talking about unions between Christians and unbelievers in I Corinthians:

To the rest I say-- I and not the Lord-- that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. And if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce the husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
(I Corinthians 7:12-14, NRSVue)

And here's Paul talking again about the same topic in II Corinthians:
Do not be mismatched with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and lawlessness have in common? Or what partnership is there between light and dark? What agreement does Christ have with Beliar? Or what does a believer share with an unbeliever?
(II Corinthians 6:14-15, NRSVue)

You have made very common the mistake of assuming that all passages of the Bible are mutually reinforcing. They are not. You should go back and reread the following posting in which I documented the biggest discrepancy in the Bible-- that between the OId and New Testaments concerning everything Jesus taught: The Messiah

You might also want to see this posting in which I argued that the New Testament authors didn't even agree among themselves as to how the idea of salvation works: The Messiah

The Bible is not like a giant jigsaw puzzle in which all of the pieces fit neatly together. Instead it's more like a collage in which pieces overlap with each other, leave gaps, and go off in separate directions independently. The Bible is chock full of a mass of contradictions, many of them central to the most fundamental teachings of the faith.
 

Jim B

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Okay, then how do you interpret that passage from the book of Matthew? Here it is again:



You cited a bunch of other passages from the Bible apparently on the assumption that all of the passages in the Bible agree with each other. They don't. Paul even contradicted himself! Here's Paul talking about unions between Christians and unbelievers in I Corinthians:



And here's Paul talking again about the same topic in II Corinthians:


You have made very common the mistake of assuming that all passages of the Bible are mutually reinforcing. They are not. You should go back and reread the following posting in which I documented the biggest discrepancy in the Bible-- that between the OId and New Testaments concerning everything Jesus taught: The Messiah

You might also want to see this posting in which I argued that the New Testament authors didn't even agree among themselves as to how the idea of salvation works: The Messiah

The Bible is not like a giant jigsaw puzzle in which all of the pieces fit neatly together. Instead it's more like a collage in which pieces overlap with each other, leave gaps, and go off in separate directions independently. The Bible is chock full of a mass of contradictions, many of them central to the most fundamental teachings of the faith.
I understand Scripture by the Holy Spirit, as do many other people. It is easy to see contradictions if one applies logic instead by the Spirit. If you're looking for God's word to contradict itself then that is what you will find. If you want to be guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth (as the Bible says) then that is what will happen.

You have made very common the mistake of assuming that all passages of the Bible are not mutually reinforcing. They are. To you, perhaps, the Bible is chock full of a mass of contradictions, but in reality, it isn't.

Numbers 23:19...

God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
 
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I understand Scripture by the Holy Spirit, as do many other people. It is easy to see contradictions if one applies logic instead by the Spirit. If you're looking for God's word to contradict itself then that is what you will find. If you want to be guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth (as the Bible says) then that is what will happen.

One could say exactly the same thing about the Koran or the Book of Mormon or the Vedas and Upanishads or any of a huge number of other religious writings. Does that mean that you regard all Muslims and Mormons and Hindus and Sikhs and Baha'is as brothers in faith?
 

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In Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus is reported to have said the following:



That’s very clear. The only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith is not required, just forgiveness.

Which sins must be forgiven? Jesus answered that question too:



Every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to be forgiven. That means murder, rape, incest, sodomy, assault, battery, robbery, fraud, slander, libel--- all those sins and many more must be forgiven.

In the above passage Jesus is talking about the sins that he will forgive, both in this life and in the afterlife. Surely Jesus doesn’t expect his followers to forgive the same sins, does he? Well, yes actually-- he does:



Jesus expects his followers to be as perfect as God. If God forgives all sins but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then so must his followers.

And how many times must a sin be forgiven? That question was answered elsewhere in the book of Matthew:



Some translations render the last number as seventy times seven, or 490. But whether it’s 77 times or 490 times, that’s a lot of forgiveness! I would argue that Jesus never expected his followers to keep track of how many times they have forgiven a sin. The number 77, as I see it, was never intended to be understood as a real number, but should instead be interpreted as “a number that is so huge that no one could ever forgive a sin that many times.” That is, the number 77 is the First Century CE equivalent of “infinity.”

So Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive them infinitely many times. The Lord’s Prayer underscores the importance of forgiveness by asking his followers to think about it every day:



Clearly forgiveness is the crux of the morality that Jesus taught.

Or, rather-- that’s the morality of the version of Jesus one finds in the book of Matthew. The Jesus of the book of John never once says that his followers must forgive the sins of other people if they are to earn the forgiveness of God!

Christians have sided with the John Jesus and have ignored the morality of the Matthew Jesus. The Catholic Catechism never once cites or even references Matthew 5:48, Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 12:31-32, or Matthew 18:21-23. Furthermore, the Catechism lists the seven Christian virtues as follows:



Note that forgiveness is not one of the listed virtues. Matthew 6:14-15 says that you must forgive the sins of others if you wish to be forgiven by God, and yet the Catholic Church doesn’t think that forgiveness is a virtue!

Perhaps you might think that forgiveness is simply a subtype of charity. No! Here’s the first definition of “forgive” in the Miriam-Webster dictionary:



That is, forgiveness implies an intent not to prosecute. And here’s the first definition of “charity” from the same dictionary:



Forgiveness is extended to someone who has committed a sin; charity is extended to those in need, regardless of whether they have committed an offense. So they are two very different actions.

Earlier we found that Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive each sin infinitely many times. That seems pretty ridiculous. If an armed man forces his way into my house and kills my spouse before my eyes, I would not be willing to simply shrug it off and tell the man “I forgive you.” No! I would want to report his actions to the authorities and have him arrested so that he can stand trial for murder!

To pardon someone means to exempt them from punishment. So according to Jesus, not only am I supposed to cease to feel resentment, but if my spouse’s killer were to return to my house I would be obligated to reaffirm my pardon of his actions. I must never even seek to have him prosecuted!

Here is a very well known passage from the book of Matthew that shows just how much Jesus expected of his followers:



It’s difficult to understand how loving someone like Adolf Hitler, or Kim Jong Un, or Mao Zedong, or Vladamir Putin could improve the world condition. But Jesus wasn’t trying to make the world a better place in which to live. He was only trying to prepare his followers for an eternity in paradise.

The story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37 is a wonderful tale of compassion and generosity. The Beatitudes in Matthew 5:1-11 show compassion for the downtrodden and oppressed. A story about the last judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 shows that Jesus expects the people of earth to extend charity to those in need. And the story of the woman accused of adultery in John 7:53 – 8:11 shows that forgiveness, used judiciously, can bring about a renewal of spirit and a corresponding change of behavior.

But universal forgiveness of any and all crimes is simply not practical in a modern society. That particular aspect of the moral teachings of Jesus is just far too idealistic. A society that forgives all crimes will effectively be rewarding criminals. The end result of such a policy will inevitably be an escalation of crime. Jesus may have believed that his followers would be so few in number that the policy of forgiving every sin would never be disruptive to the social order. But in the United States about 65% of the population considers itself to be Christian, so that notion is no longer tenable. The universal forgiveness teaching of Jesus may be revered as an unattainable ideal, but it must never be codified in law or social policy.
It is important when reading the scriptures to ascertain to whom something was written and when it was written.

Exod 12:3,

Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house:​
Whatever was about to be said, was said to a specific people, i.e. Israel. It was not written to the other group of people at that time, i.e., the Gentiles. Jew and Gentiles were the two groups of people that lived in the Old Testament. Both of them also lived in New Testament times.

Rom 11:13,

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:​
Here we see that Paul was not speaking to the Jews, but to the Gentiles.

It would be silly of me to come across a utility bill addressed to you and then write a check and put it in the mail. It'd be your mail, not mine.

So to get specifically to what Jesus said, we should first determine to whom he was speaking (and when he spoke, more on that in a minute). Who did Jesus come to in the Gospels; Jews or Gentiles?

Matt 15:24,

But he (Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

We must also consider the time that something was said. Things changed after Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into the heavens. I highlighted "after" to point out that, despite the heading in giant red letters, "The New Testament" before Matthew in all Bibles, the Gospels are still part of the Old Testament. In any case, things changed radically. For one thing, there was a new group of people in addition to the Jew and Gentile.

Eph 2:14-16,

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both (Jew and Gentile, for context) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];​
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;​
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:​

Not only did the people to whom God wrote change, but the rules of the road changed radically. What Jesus said said about forgiveness was very true under the Old Testament. But this new group of people, the Christian church if you will, was under a totally different regime. The New Testament is quite clear that salvation depends solely on accepting Jesus as their lord and believe the God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9).

As far as obtaining forgiveness in the New Testament;

Eph 1:6-7,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.​
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;​

Notice first of all that the key lies in not what we do (beyond Rom 10:9 that is), but what God has done, namely, the making of the new man of Eph 2:15. It's God's work that brings us forgiveness, not our forgiving other people. That was a different time and a different people. There is much more I could say about that, but we'll leave it at that.

Now, having said all of that, of course it is a good idea to forgive others for the wrong they may have committed against us. I think Jesus set the bar on that when he asked his Father to forgive the soldiers who so brutally murdered him. It's a high bar indeed that few ever rise to. Still we can try.

 
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