New Testament Morality

[BarneyFife]

Concerning the story of the Hebrews in Egypt:



Concerning the story of the Exodus:



So the idea that the book of Genesis existed in some form in or around 2700 BCE is pure hogwash.

There’s plenty more where that came from. But you can prove to yourself just how worthless the Bible is as a source of historical fact by comparing the two different genealogies given for Jesus in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 with the genealogies given in the Old Testament. If you line them up side-by-side you will discover the following:

• According to Matthew, Joseph’s father was Jacob while Luke says his father was Heli
• Matthew says the father of Salathiel was Jechoniah, while Luke says his father was Neri
• Matthew says there were 27 generations between King David and Jesus, but Luke ways there were 42 generations-- a difference of 36%
• The only two persons between King David and Joseph who match up in the Matthew and Luke genealogies are Salathiel/Shealtiel and Zerubbabel
• Both of the genealogies diverge from the genealogies of the Old Testament
• And most amusingly both Matthew and Luke trace the lineage of Jesus through Joseph, who ostensibly wasn’t his biological father!!!

The books of the Bible-- both Old and New Testaments-- are unreliable and don’t even align with each other, let alone with anything else from the ancient world.

But some people have assumed that everything in the Bible is the word of God and is therefore absolutely true. Such persons are fools.

I was responding to your claim that biblical texts existed in 2700 BCE. I didn't interpret that as a spiritual statement-- I interpreted it as a claim of historical fact. So I responded with evidence from the historical record to show that it is just pure baloney.

But to turn to spiritual matters, what exactly is the great spiritual truth that we're supposed to glean from the Bible? Most of the Christians who have commented on this forum claim that the core message is that faith in Jesus is absolutely essential to earn an eternal life in paradise. I say that's an extremely bigoted idea since it would mean that the billions of people who have lived on this planet without ever once having had knowledge or awareness of either Jesus or Yahweh or the Bible will be punished by God for failing to make the right choice-- even though they had no possible means of doing so. If that's what the great spiritual message of the Bible is, I want no part of it.

Aside from the "2700" nonsense (huge difference between 2700BC and 2700 years ago), there are several explanations related to your observations and objections that have sufficed to satisfy some great and well-adjusted minds that could not very likely be chargeable with foolishness.

Over the course of his lifetime Albert Ellis, the great REBT psychoanalyst of the mid-20th century went from viewing religion as indistinguishable from emotional instability to finally claiming that the Bible is a great sel-help book that has effected more mental health cure than the whole of all practicing therapists combined.

The typical cynic/skeptic from the "new atheism" school of thought is likely to find an overwhelming tide of scientific data deuging the ill-conceived, sand castles of intellectual elitist propaganda emanating from the "horsemen." The "God Delusion" will, in all likelihood, shortly be met with the "God Deluge."

And, speaking of inconsistencies, while your assessment of the Bible's historic value is very likely affected by exactly what you're looking to "discover," some of your expressions seem widely inconsistent with the "Reverent" part of your chosen username.

Perhaps it was typically chosen in much the same way as "The 'Friendly' Atheist," but I can't help wondering if your appearance here is motivated largely by a desire for amusement.

Surely you couldn't suppose you would be able to 'win friends and influence people' by stating matters the way you are.

Hopefully, I am misreading your intentions.

In any case, welcome to CyB.

 

[the.reverent.atheist]

Wouldn't Satan, seeking to sow confusion, pass himself off as Gabriel or the Holy Spirit or anyone else to achieve his goals? You are so lost, you lack discernment of those who speak the truth with those who make false claims.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.
(Matthew 7:15 - 20, NRSVue)

Wouldn’t Satan, seeking to sow discord and doubt, introduce false prophets into the world who profess manifestly evil teachings and misreadings of scripture? People who, for example, insist that billions of humans who have lived without ever enjoying knowledge of Jesus must be damned to hell and must burn forever for a sin that was no fault of their own? Or those who claim that Yahweh’s slaughter of the indigenous peoples of the promised lands was merciful and just? You shall know such persons by their intense hatred of anyone who disagrees with them in the least. For they are deceivers who seek only to glorify themselves and to twist scripture to suit their own selfish ends.

 

[Wrangler]

Wouldn’t Satan

Cowardly refusal to answer questions.

 

[BarneyFife]

This thread is kind of a mess. We have both Christians and non-Christians behaving badly.

 

[the.reverent.atheist]

Cowardly refusal to answer questions.

Okay, how's this:

There's no such thing as Satan.
There's no such thing as angels.
There's no such thing as the resurrection of the dead.
There's no such thing as paradise.
There's no such thing as prophecy.

 

[Wrangler]

There's no such thing as …

Then why are you asking about the Holy Spirit if there is no such thing?

 

[the.reverent.atheist]

Then why are you asking about the Holy Spirit if there is no such thing?

I used the term “Holy Spirit” in the context of comparing the authenticity of the Bible to that of the Koran. One argument for believing that the Bible is the word of God is that its books were ostensibly inspired by the Holy Spirit. But Muslims believe the same about the Koran. So by that reasoning the Bible and the Koran should be regarded as being on equal footing.

If the term “Holy Spirit” is to be understood in a much broader context of being inspired by the divine generally, then we have evidence going back to the very beginning of written literature that peoples of many ancient cultures were inspired by their concepts of the divine. Here’s an excerpt from an ode to the moon god Nanna from ancient Sumer which dates to the reign of Sargon the Great:

His own mother, the lady of Nibru, speaks a prayer to the lord in his desert: ‘A prayer, O shepherd! A prayer! May the cows be numerous for you in the good desert. When you arrive at nightfall, may you renew the E-kur, the highly prized sanctuary.’
He is its lover, he is its lover, he is the lord, the E-kur’s lover! He is the man of delight to Enlil, he is Suen, the cry of joy of his own mother. The mother who bore him speaks kindly from her loving heart to Suen: ‘You are the beloved of the heart who calms the heart, Suen, shining calf who grew fat on the holy lap; you can wish in your heart for anything! You can desire everything precious to the heart! … , splendour of the E-kur, make your wish on Enlil’s lap. May you create glory in heaven! May the E-kur sing a song of joy about you, may the people call upon your life, Suen, may you be supreme in heaven and earth!’
(The Literature of Ancient Sumer, Black, Cunningham, Robson, and Zolyomi, pg. 142-143)

That may all seem very strange to modern ears, but 4300 years ago it would have been considered deeply inspiring.

The pharaoh Akhenaten (Amenhotemp IV) established a true monotheism during his rule. His ideas (and his repressive practices) were reviled by the priesthood and the populace, and after his reign everything he had built was destroyed. His son was even renamed from Tutankhaten to Tutankhamun, reflecting the fact that the worship of Amun was once again to be reestablished throughout the land. But over the next couple of centuries the god Amun merged with the god Re to become the god Amun-Re, and that god was eventually seen as a supreme god. Most of the other gods of the Egyptian pantheon were seen as simply manifestations of Amun-Re. So one could say that Akhenaten eventually succeeded in establishing monotheism in ancient Egypt. That was a pretty momentous change. During his reign Akhenaten wrote some hymns to the Aten-- his supreme deity. They’re quite beautiful, even to modern ears.

People have been building temples to gods and goddesses for at least the last 5000 years. So clearly the concept of the divine has long been a deeply essential part of human religion generally. The religious fervor springs from the inspiration of that which people consider to be divine. If you wish to call that the “Holy Spirit,” that’s okay with me.

 

[Wrangler]

I used the term “Holy Spirit” in the context of comparing the authenticity of the Bible to that of the Koran. One argument for believing that the Bible is the word of God is that its books were ostensibly inspired by the Holy Spirit. But Muslims believe the same about the Koran. So by that reasoning the Bible and the Koran should be regarded as being on equal footing.

Dude! You are not on a Muslim site.

Learn to embrace the reasoning that supports the Bible and the God of Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

If the term “Holy Spirit” is to be understood in a much broader context of being inspired by the divine generally, then we have evidence going back to the very beginning of written literature that peoples of many ancient cultures were inspired by their concepts of the divine.

There you go again, engaging in mental masturbation, trying to define your way out of the proper world view.

It is improper to use a term 'in a much broader context' that that terms definition. For instance, the number "one" could be understood in a much broader context to be infinity but you won't do well on math tests were numbers mean whatever you want to them to mean.

 

[Wrangler]

People have been building temples to gods and goddesses for at least the last 5000 years. So clearly the concept of the divine has long been a deeply essential part of human religion generally. The religious fervor springs from the inspiration of that which people consider to be divine. If you wish to call that the “Holy Spirit,” that’s okay with me

Your arrogance makes it hard to even want to engage you. I think you know what Christians call the Holy Spirit and it is not your made up definitions.