New Testament Morality

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In Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus is reported to have said the following:

“For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
(Matthew 6:14-15, NRSVue)

That’s very clear. The only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith is not required, just forgiveness.

Which sins must be forgiven? Jesus answered that question too:

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
(Matthew 12:30-32, NRSVue)

Every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to be forgiven. That means murder, rape, incest, sodomy, assault, battery, robbery, fraud, slander, libel--- all those sins and many more must be forgiven.

In the above passage Jesus is talking about the sins that he will forgive, both in this life and in the afterlife. Surely Jesus doesn’t expect his followers to forgive the same sins, does he? Well, yes actually-- he does:

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
(Matthew 5:48, NRSVue)

Jesus expects his followers to be as perfect as God. If God forgives all sins but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then so must his followers.

And how many times must a sin be forgiven? That question was answered elsewhere in the book of Matthew:

Then Peter came and said to him, “Lord, if my brother or sister sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times? Jesus said to him, “Not seven times, but, I tell you, seventy-seven times.”
(Matthew 18:21-23, NRSVue)

Some translations render the last number as seventy times seven, or 490. But whether it’s 77 times or 490 times, that’s a lot of forgiveness! I would argue that Jesus never expected his followers to keep track of how many times they have forgiven a sin. The number 77, as I see it, was never intended to be understood as a real number, but should instead be interpreted as “a number that is so huge that no one could ever forgive a sin that many times.” That is, the number 77 is the First Century CE equivalent of “infinity.”

So Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive them infinitely many times. The Lord’s Prayer underscores the importance of forgiveness by asking his followers to think about it every day:

“And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.”
(Matthew 6:12, NRSVue)

Clearly forgiveness is the crux of the morality that Jesus taught.

Or, rather-- that’s the morality of the version of Jesus one finds in the book of Matthew. The Jesus of the book of John never once says that his followers must forgive the sins of other people if they are to earn the forgiveness of God!

Christians have sided with the John Jesus and have ignored the morality of the Matthew Jesus. The Catholic Catechism never once cites or even references Matthew 5:48, Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 12:31-32, or Matthew 18:21-23. Furthermore, the Catechism lists the seven Christian virtues as follows:

The “Theological” virtues: Faith, Hope, and Charity
The “Human” virtues: Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, and Temperance

Note that forgiveness is not one of the listed virtues. Matthew 6:14-15 says that you must forgive the sins of others if you wish to be forgiven by God, and yet the Catholic Church doesn’t think that forgiveness is a virtue!

Perhaps you might think that forgiveness is simply a subtype of charity. No! Here’s the first definition of “forgive” in the Miriam-Webster dictionary:

to cease to feel resentment against (an offender): PARDON

That is, forgiveness implies an intent not to prosecute. And here’s the first definition of “charity” from the same dictionary:

generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering

Forgiveness is extended to someone who has committed a sin; charity is extended to those in need, regardless of whether they have committed an offense. So they are two very different actions.

Earlier we found that Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive each sin infinitely many times. That seems pretty ridiculous. If an armed man forces his way into my house and kills my spouse before my eyes, I would not be willing to simply shrug it off and tell the man “I forgive you.” No! I would want to report his actions to the authorities and have him arrested so that he can stand trial for murder!

To pardon someone means to exempt them from punishment. So according to Jesus, not only am I supposed to cease to feel resentment, but if my spouse’s killer were to return to my house I would be obligated to reaffirm my pardon of his actions. I must never even seek to have him prosecuted!

Here is a very well known passage from the book of Matthew that shows just how much Jesus expected of his followers:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemies.’ But I say to you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven, for he makes his sun rise on the righteous and on the unrighteous.”
(Matthew 6:43-45, NRSVue)

It’s difficult to understand how loving someone like Adolf Hitler, or Kim Jong Un, or Mao Zedong, or Vladamir Putin could improve the world condition. But Jesus wasn’t trying to make the world a better place in which to live. He was only trying to prepare his followers for an eternity in paradise.

The story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37 is a wonderful tale of compassion and generosity. The Beatitudes in Matthew 5:1-11 show compassion for the downtrodden and oppressed. A story about the last judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 shows that Jesus expects the people of earth to extend charity to those in need. And the story of the woman accused of adultery in John 7:53 – 8:11 shows that forgiveness, used judiciously, can bring about a renewal of spirit and a corresponding change of behavior.

But universal forgiveness of any and all crimes is simply not practical in a modern society. That particular aspect of the moral teachings of Jesus is just far too idealistic. A society that forgives all crimes will effectively be rewarding criminals. The end result of such a policy will inevitably be an escalation of crime. Jesus may have believed that his followers would be so few in number that the policy of forgiving every sin would never be disruptive to the social order. But in the United States about 65% of the population considers itself to be Christian, so that notion is no longer tenable. The universal forgiveness teaching of Jesus may be revered as an unattainable ideal, but it must never be codified in law or social policy.
 

Zachariah

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In Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus is reported to have said the following:



That’s very clear. The only way to earn the forgiveness of God is by forgiving the sins of other people. Faith is not required, just forgiveness.

Which sins must be forgiven? Jesus answered that question too:



Every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to be forgiven. That means murder, rape, incest, sodomy, assault, battery, robbery, fraud, slander, libel--- all those sins and many more must be forgiven.

In the above passage Jesus is talking about the sins that he will forgive, both in this life and in the afterlife. Surely Jesus doesn’t expect his followers to forgive the same sins, does he? Well, yes actually-- he does:



Jesus expects his followers to be as perfect as God. If God forgives all sins but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then so must his followers.

And how many times must a sin be forgiven? That question was answered elsewhere in the book of Matthew:



Some translations render the last number as seventy times seven, or 490. But whether it’s 77 times or 490 times, that’s a lot of forgiveness! I would argue that Jesus never expected his followers to keep track of how many times they have forgiven a sin. The number 77, as I see it, was never intended to be understood as a real number, but should instead be interpreted as “a number that is so huge that no one could ever forgive a sin that many times.” That is, the number 77 is the First Century CE equivalent of “infinity.”

So Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive them infinitely many times. The Lord’s Prayer underscores the importance of forgiveness by asking his followers to think about it every day:



Clearly forgiveness is the crux of the morality that Jesus taught.

Or, rather-- that’s the morality of the version of Jesus one finds in the book of Matthew. The Jesus of the book of John never once says that his followers must forgive the sins of other people if they are to earn the forgiveness of God!

Christians have sided with the John Jesus and have ignored the morality of the Matthew Jesus. The Catholic Catechism never once cites or even references Matthew 5:48, Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 12:31-32, or Matthew 18:21-23. Furthermore, the Catechism lists the seven Christian virtues as follows:



Note that forgiveness is not one of the listed virtues. Matthew 6:14-15 says that you must forgive the sins of others if you wish to be forgiven by God, and yet the Catholic Church doesn’t think that forgiveness is a virtue!

Perhaps you might think that forgiveness is simply a subtype of charity. No! Here’s the first definition of “forgive” in the Miriam-Webster dictionary:



That is, forgiveness implies an intent not to prosecute. And here’s the first definition of “charity” from the same dictionary:



Forgiveness is extended to someone who has committed a sin; charity is extended to those in need, regardless of whether they have committed an offense. So they are two very different actions.

Earlier we found that Jesus expects his followers to forgive every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and to forgive each sin infinitely many times. That seems pretty ridiculous. If an armed man forces his way into my house and kills my spouse before my eyes, I would not be willing to simply shrug it off and tell the man “I forgive you.” No! I would want to report his actions to the authorities and have him arrested so that he can stand trial for murder!

To pardon someone means to exempt them from punishment. So according to Jesus, not only am I supposed to cease to feel resentment, but if my spouse’s killer were to return to my house I would be obligated to reaffirm my pardon of his actions. I must never even seek to have him prosecuted!

Here is a very well known passage from the book of Matthew that shows just how much Jesus expected of his followers:



It’s difficult to understand how loving someone like Adolf Hitler, or Kim Jong Un, or Mao Zedong, or Vladamir Putin could improve the world condition. But Jesus wasn’t trying to make the world a better place in which to live. He was only trying to prepare his followers for an eternity in paradise.

The story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37 is a wonderful tale of compassion and generosity. The Beatitudes in Matthew 5:1-11 show compassion for the downtrodden and oppressed. A story about the last judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 shows that Jesus expects the people of earth to extend charity to those in need. And the story of the woman accused of adultery in John 7:53 – 8:11 shows that forgiveness, used judiciously, can bring about a renewal of spirit and a corresponding change of behavior.

But universal forgiveness of any and all crimes is simply not practical in a modern society. That particular aspect of the moral teachings of Jesus is just far too idealistic. A society that forgives all crimes will effectively be rewarding criminals. The end result of such a policy will inevitably be an escalation of crime. Jesus may have believed that his followers would be so few in number that the policy of forgiving every sin would never be disruptive to the social order. But in the United States about 65% of the population considers itself to be Christian, so that notion is no longer tenable. The universal forgiveness teaching of Jesus may be revered as an unattainable ideal, but it must never be codified in law or social policy.
Within the laws of the human psyche, one cannot hold unforgivness and at the same time be able to accept forgivness for themselves. If your heavily judgemental towards people with pimples, when you get a pimple your going to be just as hard on yourself. Forgivness is the same principle.

Faith is 100% always needed if you are to enter the fathers domain. Always, there is no acception. If you cannot see it like that then I would say you have miss interpretated the word faith.

Water must evaporate before it is to reach the sky.

Most people don't know what faith is weather they believe you need it or not.
 
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Wrangler

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But universal forgiveness of any and all crimes is simply not practical in a modern society. That particular aspect of the moral teachings of Jesus is just far too idealistic. A society that forgives all crimes will effectively be rewarding criminals.
Clearly, you have an overly legalistic world view, focused on justice and not grace.

Of course, a criminal will be penalized under our criminal justice system. That does not translate to automatically forgiving the perpetrator.

Replace the legalism for a moment with psychology. I too had a hard time with forgiveness until I learned to differentiate it from reconcilliation. It takes 1 to forgive and 2 to reconcile. You may never reconcile with someone. However, the reason to forgive is a gift you give yourself. Holding on to unforgiveness is not love (not self-love) but poisonous is holding on to resentment and bitterness.
 
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Behold

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In Matthew 6:14-15 Jesus is reported to have said the following:



The only way to earn the forgiveness of God

Paul, = In Galatians Chapter one, explains that any Gospel that teaches WORKS as the way to heaven... (earning salvation) is "Cursed".

So, you just did that...

Galatians 1:8
 
Apr 25, 2023
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Within the laws of the human psyche...
You:
Faith is 100% always needed if you are to enter the fathers domain. Always, there is no acception. If you cannot see it like that then I would say you have miss interpretated the word faith.

I was simply quoting Matthew 6:14-15. What's YOUR interpretation of that passage? Here it is again, just as a reminder:

“For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
(Matthew 6:14-15, NRSVue)

There is no mention of faith in that passage. None.
Maybe you think that all of the passages of the Bible are self-consistent. That's not true. If you haven't already, have a look at this posting:

Contradictions

The fact is that the various authors of the Bible didn't agree with one another, and the authors of the books of Matthew and John disagreed on precisely what a person has to do to earn the forgiveness of God.
 
Apr 25, 2023
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Clearly, you have an overly legalistic world view, focused on justice and not grace.

Of course, a criminal will be penalized under our criminal justice system. That does not translate to automatically forgiving the perpetrator.

Replace the legalism for a moment with psychology. I too had a hard time with forgiveness until I learned to differentiate it from reconcilliation. It takes 1 to forgive and 2 to reconcile. You may never reconcile with someone. However, the reason to forgive is a gift you give yourself. Holding on to unforgiveness is not love (not self-love) but poisonous is holding on to resentment and bitterness.

A synonym for the word "forgive" is "pardon." That's what the quotation from the Miriam-Webster dictionary showed. Here it is again:

to cease to feel resentment against (an offender): PARDON

To pardon someone means to not prosecute. You said "Of course, a criminal will be penalized under our criminal justice system." If the perpetrator has been pardoned, then he/she won't be prosecuted. You seem to be arguing for a distinction between forgiving and pardoning that isn't real.

Yes I agree that holding on to bitter memories and seeking revenge can be poisonous to one's soul. But Jesus went way beyond just encouraging his followers to purge themselves of bitter memories. He expected his followers to forgive-- to pardon-- every sin except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That's way too irresponsible.
 

Wrangler

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A synonym for the word "forgive" is "pardon."
You just ignored my entire post.

In my experience, atheists do this. The world view is driven by a house of concept formation cards. A definition of forgive is to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON. With this definition in mind, please re-read my original post.

Atheists often have false standards by which they build their world view. In your case, you are only considering forgiving from a legal perspective. From this world view, false standard perspective, you judge the lord as wrong. The master is not so narrow minded. Imagine trying to grasp how what the Bible says is right. That will point you in the proper direction.
 
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What happens to you if you try to be like Christ, and you give to the Poor, and you keep the Law, and you forgiven everyone........yet, you are never born again?

What happens to you after you die, if you are never "born again".

Don't worry, I plan to address that very question in a forthcoming posting.
 

Zachariah

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You:


I was simply quoting Matthew 6:14-15. What's YOUR interpretation of that passage? Here it is again, just as a reminder:



There is no mention of faith in that passage. None.
Maybe you think that all of the passages of the Bible are self-consistent. That's not true. If you haven't already, have a look at this posting:

Contradictions

The fact is that the various authors of the Bible didn't agree with one another, and the authors of the books of Matthew and John disagreed on precisely what a person has to do to earn the forgiveness of God.
I explained my understanding on forgivness. I'm a bible critic myself and I know the bible is far from free of deception as the imperial romans where the ones who created and took controle of the cannon. Anyone who thinks the bible speaks 100% truth is nieve and anyone who doesn't do there due diligents is ignorant. You are not speaking with somone who sides them self with every word of the bible rather you are talking to somone who sides with Truth.

We can see the proccess of forgivness as the proccess of judgment. They hold the same paradoxical principles and are very closely related. At its core the bible is knowledge of not the egoic self but the true self. Always reflect the teachings within yourself.
 
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You just ignored my entire post.
...

You:
In my experience, atheists do this. The world view is driven by a house of concept formation cards. A definition of forgive is to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : PARDON. With this definition in mind, please re-read my original post.

Okay, so here's something you said in your first post:
Clearly, you have an overly legalistic world view, focused on justice and not grace.

Well that's pretty interesting. According to the Catholic Pope, justice is a Christian virtue, but forgiveness is not. So the Pope seems focused on justice; why aren't you? You appear to believe that forgiveness is a virtue of some kind-- which is the opposite of what the Pope believes. In fact the Pope doesn't even think that the idea that Christians should forgive the sins of others is a subject fit for discussion. Look up the word "forgive" in the subject index at the very back of the print version of the Catholic Catechism-- you will find no entries! So you and the Pope don't seem to agree on how the word "forgive" should be interpreted. Before you accuse me of failing to understand the meaning of the teachings of Jesus, maybe you should get your own opinions in alignment with those of the Pope. Unless you think the Pope is completely wrong about the meaning of the Bible...

Here's something else you said in your original posting:
Of course, a criminal will be penalized under our criminal justice system. That does not translate to automatically forgiving the perpetrator.

Of course a criminal will be penalized? A criminal would only be penalized if someone reports his or her actions to the authorities. Your interpretation of Matthew 6:14-15 seems to be that Jesus expected his followers to reconcile themselves with whatever sins might have been committed-- but that those sins must still be reported to the authorities so that the offender can be arrested and put on trial. Here's a relevant quotation of Jesus from the book of Luke:

"Be on your guard! If a brother or sister sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. And if the same person sins against you seven times a day and turns back to you seven times a day and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive."
(Luke 17:3-4, NRSVue)

Does that sound like someone who thinks that when someone sins against you and then repents, you are supposed to tell them you forgive them-- and then immediately dial 911 to make sure they get arrested? How would the offender described in the passage above be able to return seven times in one day if he had already been arrested? It doesn't make sense.

The story of the woman who was found guilty of adultery in John 7:53 - 8:11 is one in which Jesus allows a woman who was known to have committed a punishable crime to go free. That doesn't sound like someone who thinks that all criminals must be penalized.
 

Wrangler

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Okay, so here's something you said in your first post:

Clearly, you have an overly legalistic world view, focused on justice and not grace.

Well that's pretty interesting. According to the Catholic Pope, justice is a Christian virtue, but forgiveness is not.

Strawman. I did not say Justice is not a Christian virtue. I said you have an overly legalistic world view.

This means one can miss the mark one of two ways; insufficient truth or insufficient grace.

Appeal to Authority. Not sure why you keep mentioning Catholicism when the vast majority here are not Catholics.

Appeal to Diversion. Also, I’m not sure what context the Pope said what you claim or what it has to do with proving Jesus was 100% spot on correct in what he said about forgiveness.
 
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Wrangler

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So the Pope seems focused on justice; why aren't you?
Because your criticism is against Christ and his righteous statement about forgiveness.

There is no comparison in authority over me between Christ and the Pope. Christ has all authority over me. The Pope has none. So, this makes your Appeal to Authority absurd, in the extreme.

And you failed to cite the actual quote of the Pope in context.
 
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Wrangler

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Look up the word "forgive"
I did and provided the defintion to you, which you seem to ignore.
A definition of forgive is to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) :
Can you admit this is the definition of forgive? to cease to feel resentment against (an offender)

I'm afraid you are playing all kinds of word games to support a false conclusion.
 

Patrick1966

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The opening post is quite the dissertation. For future reference others might be more willing to read something much shorter and then expand from there.
 
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Wrangler

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Before you accuse me of failing to understand the meaning of the teachings of Jesus, maybe you should get your own opinions in alignment with those of the Pope. Unless you think the Pope is completely wrong about the meaning of the Bible...
You sure are a divider, trying to use the Pope as your hand puppet, implying I owe allegience to him when he is not my lord. And your passive aggressiveness is exposed.
 

Wrangler

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Your interpretation of Matthew 6:14-15 seems to be that Jesus expected his followers to reconcile themselves with whatever sins might have been committed-- but that those sins must still be reported to the authorities so that the offender can be arrested and put on trial. Here's a relevant quotation of Jesus from the book of Luke:
You keep trying to rationalize what is wrong. Forgiveness and reconcilliation are 2 different things. And no reference to Luke is going to change that.

I'll say it one more time in the hopes communication and conversation with you is possible. Jesus words in Matthew 6:14-15 is not limited to a human legal system. If you cannot get your mind around the importance of forgiveness other than as it applies to human legal systems, you are lost.

And I mean your salvation is lost.

Forgiveness is one of the few requirements for salvation. Verse 15 is explicit on this point. Again, I say, forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. If you have been robbed of property (subsequently spent) or the life of a loved one, the human legal system will not make you whole EVEN IF it all goes in your favor. "Winning" a life time of bitterness and resentment as the criminal's life is extinguished or laments in prison is a legal victory only the damned could like.
 

Wrangler

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How would the offender described in the passage above be able to return seven times in one day if he had already been arrested? It doesn't make sense.
It does not make sense because in your depraved state (a consequence of your atheist choices), you are twisting God's words, pretending the words ONLY have criminal justice system application. Re-read my 1st post, specifically the verses in Roman 1:28-30. Maybe then, you will have eyes to see.


You are headed for trouble! You say wrong is right, darkness is light, and bitter is sweet.
Isaiah 5:20 (CEV)