Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You don’t get it
I do Not have to teach works. I teach love and serve others
teaching works is teaching we have to live up to some standard. That’s legalism
new version of OSAS?
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I do Not have to teach works. I teach love and serve others
teaching works is teaching we have to live up to some standard. That’s legalism
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
It depends if you want to believe what you want or you preach the Bible...If it is the Bible that you are interested in...then just preach the Bible....again there is not the legalist section in the Bible. The term standard does not apply to the Bible. There are morals to live by and sins to die by. Overall the Bible as far as salvation, morals, and sins are not that complicated. It is when you go to the Bible with beliefs that you want to superimpose on the Bible....then things go south.
Interesting opinion. But nope.
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
No need to explain.
Tong
R3600
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Christ set the conditions so that Man could have a relationship with God. That is why the veil ripped into...no more division between us and God
Interesting opinion. But nope.
If you do not understand why this is true....you need to look into it yourself.
That’s right.
I’d say Salvation isn’t some thing that one receives and could be returned. Salvation is God’s working, whose working no one can take credit of nor can add to nor can undo.
Interesting thought. But nope. No true Christian, no child of God whom God created in Christ Jesus, would be in hell.
Not only accepted, but members. Those whom God created in Christ Jesus, who are His workmanship, who are born of God, are His children.
Nope. The children of God, the true Christians, those whom God created in Christ Jesus, those who were born from above, those born of God, those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, will all go home, not to hell, but to heaven.
The obvious difference between the true Christians and those who are not, is that, the former are God’s children, the latter not. When His children errs, He disciplines and chastise each one of them. Of the latter, He does not.
The erring child of God will certainly be chastised by God. But because he is a child of God, he has an inheritance from God. Now, does a child work to be an heir? Nope. Now a child ought to be obedient to God, not to have an inheritance, but to experience righteousness and the goodness of God while in this life.
Tong
R3601
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Nope
This is simply not what the Bible says. It is a false belief. This is were were we get into I can do anything I want and not go hell and all of heaven is filled with all of the evil of the ages. Hardly a reward for good people.
As far as the true Christian....until you come up with a meter or popup timer....if you believe Christ is God and savior....you are a Christian and as a Christian the Bible states over and over you will be judged on your deeds and sent to heaven or hell accordingly.
But you haven’t explained the metaphor you say it is. You only told us that it is a metaphor.
Again, I have already told you that the scriptures you gave does not teach that some of those whom God created in Christ will go to hell.
Nope. I could use that same excuse on you. But nope, I’d rather not.
Straw man? Yep.
Who’s saying Christ condone sin? Not me. Regarding my wrong doings, God chastise and disciplines me. And I submit and accept it wholeheartedly. Do you know what it means and feels to be chastised? Now, that isn’t condoning sin, right? That’s love.
It’s wise to understand what is actually said in the post, not reading your thoughts in it.
Isn’t Jesus Christ your advocate yesterday, now, tomorrow, and on judgment day? Well,….
Tong
R3602
It “ IS” crazy.....you wasted valuable computer ink on a problem that does not exist....at least not for me or anybody that I have ever known....understanding Grace gave me a “license”—- That much is Certain—- it was a “ License to SERVE”....I have the Freedom To do whatever I want....what do I want? I want to be God’s Slave....ain’t that crazy ? I wonder if God knew this stuff all along.....nah....no way.....
Your “ god” is too small....He is so much Beyond, “ do do this and don’t do that “...... I hope you get to know Him someday....
That was coming from you, not from me. If you wanted people to understand what you like to say or whether what you say is the truth found in scriptures, that is on you.
Tong
R3603
And so you don’t agree. Got that.
And so you don’t get to see that in scriptures, that the erring child of God will certainly be chastised by God? Well,,,,.
And Nope. Nothing in what I said even suggest in the slightest, that idea you inject “I can do anything I want and not go hell”. That’s a strawman.
A true Christian is way more than what you say there. He is not just someone who believes that Christ is God and Savior. For one, He is a child of God, a legitimate child at that, born of God, created by God in Christ Jesus, who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him.
If one knows what a true Christian is and the salvation of God, and to be under grace, he will have no problem understanding that no true and legitimate child of God will go to hell.
If you believe that you will stand before God and be judged according to your works, and based on what works you’ve done, whether you will go to hell or be saved from that, then I think that might be, if not will be, for you. I think that is how it will be also for the Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah.
Tong
R3604
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
We are not created when we are saved.
We are born creatures.
We are not predestined as puppets on a string, new spiritual person with no past.
Now depending on your beliefs regarding baptism we go down in the water as dyeing with Christ and come up born again as a new spiritual person with no past.
And I disagree with you.
You think that Christ condones sin? You think that Christ and the Apostle set the example of a sinful life?
No is do not know how it is to be chastised by God. I believed in Christ when I was riding around on my tricycle in diapers.
Read the Bible on what it says about Judgment Day. Why are you having so much trouble understanding this? The scriptures tell us the sins that will prevent us from inheriting the Kingdom of God and they all say in the end, on Judgment Day we will be judged on our deeds. I do not understand the problem you are having with the scriptures....that why I am saying reading comprehension, they are so clear and simple.
Read what is in the Bible, it is pretty simple....
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No what your saying is crazy and what you say is heresy of the worst kind.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Yes it is called hell.
That is the doctrine of OSAS. Do you deny that you believe in OSAS?
Define the meter you use to define a true Christion.
Then you would not subscribe to OSAS.
No then he would know that followers of Christ would not live sinful lifestyles and he would know if he did he was going to hell.
This is not just a belief it is very well defined in several scriptures. Do you take a magic marker and strike out the verses you do not like in your Bible?
It is simply what the Bible says. For OSAS people the Bible is their worst enemy. What they believe is what Satan would want people to believe...very sad.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
If I am dealing with people that know little about the Bible...tell me.
What do you think the reason is that Christ offered Himself up for a sacrifice for sin?
Please just explain the metaphor that you say.
That explains it then.
I did. And apparently we understand differently. And I don’t have any problem about that. Only in your mind that problem exist. Those who have a problem with judgment day are those who are not in Christ and who don’t have Christ in them, and who don’t have Christ as their advocate.
Now would you now considering answering my simple question:
Isn’t Jesus Christ your advocate yesterday, now, tomorrow, and on judgment day?
Well even if I do that a million times, the bible will not let us know and understand what you like to say. It takes you to explain to us what it is you want to say to us, unless you too don’t know what you are saying or you don’t like for us to understand you, which is of course foolish.
Tong
R3605
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Well you can call it that. It’s just not the lake of everlasting fire .
I am not talking about OSAS, that which was concocted by man. What I am talking about is what the Bible teach.
Meter I use? The definition of what a true Christian is that which scriptures says. Among the many things that scriptures says of them, the true Christian is him who is born of God, created in Christ Jesus, are God’s workmanship, in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, whose faith is in God and in Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ.
What I subscribe to is in the truth revealed and taught in scriptures.
Do you like to rephrase that?
At least in your reading and view.
At least in your reading and view perhaps.
Some take Jesus as their a once upon a time or point in time savior and then after, seems to cease being their savior and becomes a judge to them. That after that point in time that they have Jesus as their savior, salvation shifts from Jesus to him. That he must be good, do good, do this and not that, so that, if they do that, they won’t be judged to go to hell.
It makes me wonder how they get to tell if their good works are sufficient to get them to heaven. Do they have some sort of scale where they could weigh their sins against their good works? Hmmm. I wonder what good work would outweigh a lie.
What I know is that, it takes the life of the Son of God no less to pay for my sins that I may go to heaven. I wonder what good works they must do and could do to even come close to that, that they may outweigh the sins they commit after that point in time they say they were saved by Jesus Christ. Interesting.
Tong
R3606
Tell me. I am curious in what you have to say about that. I am excited to compare what you have to say with what scriptures say about that.
Tong
R3607
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
That is it.
No your disagreement is with the Bible.
We are talking about the scriptures regarding the sins that will prevent you from going heaven and the scriptures that say we will be judged by our deed....there is nothing difficult to understand there. The point is that no matter what the Bible says you are not going to believe and will talk around it. So fun.
We use the truth because God is good and the scriptures are holy and God loves us and we are faithful and are scarred of the boogie man. See I can talk in circles too.
Ok
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Since you are so skilled at denying scriptures lets see how you are at explaining away each scripture.
It is easy to deny scriptures...it takes more imagination to explain them away.
2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
2nd Peter 2:4-22
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment 5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceptions while they feast with you; 14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
Jude:1:15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rom:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Rom:6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
1st John:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Matthew 25:31-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mark 9:43-48 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Luke 13:27 And yet He will say, ‘I do not know where you are from; LEAVE ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’
James 4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
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Now I am a learner and what is important is the meaning of salvation.
This is for the non-osasers or those really interested in discussion so we can learn together ...
3 interesting passages
One that defines eternal life, another where Jesus says the words he spoke were Spirit and life. And what is one saved by and for.
In this post let's define eternal life...according to
John 17:3.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Know-ginosko-1097-
* to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
* to become known
* to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
*to understand
*Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
* to become acquainted with, to know
................................
5725 Tense - Present
Voice - Active
Mood - Subjunctive
life-zoe-2222-
*life
*the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
*every living soul
*life
*of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and
ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the
hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on
human nature
* life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted
to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those
who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to
be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect
body), and to last for ever.
net.bible.org
eternal-166-aionios-adj
*without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
*without beginning
*without end, never to cease, everlasting
This is for the non-osasers or those really interested in discussion so we can learn together ...
3 interesting passages
One that defines eternal life, another where Jesus says the words he spoke were Spirit and life. And what is one saved by and for.
In this post let's define eternal life...according to
John 17:3.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Know-ginosko-1097-
* to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
* to become known
* to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
*to understand
*Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
* to become acquainted with, to know
................................
5725 Tense - Present
Voice - Active
Mood - Subjunctive
life-zoe-2222-
*life
*the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
*every living soul
*life
*of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and
ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the
hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on
human nature
* life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted
to God, blessed, in the portion even in this world of those
who put their trust in Christ, but after the resurrection to
be consummated by new accessions (among them a more perfect
body), and to last for ever.
net.bible.org
eternal-166-aionios-adj
*without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
*without beginning
*without end, never to cease, everlasting
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