New Views on the Rapture

[Duckybill]

It means that the elect are gathered at the second coming which is after the tribulation, just as the Bible says.

ok

Why are those who are left still remain until the coming of the Lord? If your answer has anything to do with the rapture, you're reading your assumption into the text. Those who are left are left because they're still living. Unlike the rapture, that is in the text; no assumptions required. Also, if those who are "left behind" are those who haven't received salvation, why is Paul including himself (we who are alive) and addressing this to a church?

The tribulation is going to be a time of unprecedented trouble, and those who are expecting to not go through it will not be ready for it. There are people who put so much faith in their doctrines that they really don't care what the Bible really says, just as long as they can use it to support what they believe.

It's no wonder that this doctrine seems to thrive in the western church...

I see no reason why these can't be 2 separate events:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Zechariah 14:3-4 (ESV)
[sup]3 [/sup]Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. [sup]4 [/sup]On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

I see no reason whatsoever to believe that salvation is dependent upon believing one way or the other.

 

[HammerStone]

Ducky, simple, because rapture or return or whatever word you prefer becomes raptures and returns. That's where the whole secret idea about some folks being taken away has manifested to fill that gap. Jesus only half comes back the first time in secret, and then he fully returns later when things get a lot worse is the idea. Problem is, it's still coming twice.

Say what whoever wants about rapture, harpazo, etc. but the Bible is pretty clear that things like trumps are noticeable. It is not a plural set of events nor is it some hidden thing.

As far as the word rapture goes, some are as rabid about that as they accuse others of being. The devotion to a word, whose meaning has shifted rather profoundly in the last 200 odd years or so is incessant as the other side's belief. I'm not one for these broad, sweeping generalizations because I've generally found that those who make them fall right under them in their own way...

At the end of the day, there is still too much cannot see the forest for the trees. The return is all about Jesus, period. If you know the Scripture, and truly know the Scripture, then you will recognize when these things begin to happen one way or another. You guys know me well, I've backed off of this argument in the past few years. I still very strongly believe that Christ returns after the tribulation, so don't mistake my doctrine; however, there are larger fish to fry. My fish right now happens to be Scripture knowledge, and I want to encourage other believers to be aware of the event Christ talked about many times in his life and Paul deals with in almost every letter he writes - not to mention the entire OT books devoted to the subject.

 

[rockytopva]

[sup]7[/sup]I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: [sup]8[/sup]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing

[sup]9[/sup]Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:. - 2 Timothy 4: 7,8,9

The Apostle Paul knew that his time was come. Scripture has it that he was going to have to appear before Caesar and I believe he had a great sense of what was to come. His insides yearned to see Timothy yet one more time knowing that it would be the last time.

[sup]2[/sup]Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[sup]3[/sup]And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.- 1 John 3: 2, 3

And the Apostle John looked for his appearing, who would be (reportedly) the only apostle not to taste of martyrdom

The key word is appearing... And the key words from the above scriptures were


1. Love his appearing

2. Hope

3. Purity


If your doctrine on the end times are taught correctly your followers will have a hope, purity and a love for our God's appearing.

 

[TWC]

2 Timothy 4:1-8
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

 

[tomwebster]

Does anyone here believe there will be a resurrection some day ??
I expect most would say yes.

At the time of the resurrection , will there be living believers ??
I expect most of us would say yes.

How do they get new bodies similar to the resurrected saints??
What will the Lord do ?? How will He do it ??

If the Lord can take a completely decayed , thousand year old body from the grave, and resurrected it to be brand new and eternal ...... do you think He could take a living body and change it as well ???

If so , what would you call the event of transforming living bodies ???

Use whatever terminology you want is just fine. In modern day it is often referred to as the rapture. It drives some folks nuts to try to accept that , but in my opinion they were half way to the nuthouse anyway with their hair-brained anti-rapture ideas.

It troubles me how many Christians can be so far out to lunch , yet convince themselves they are experts of some kind. No wonder people keep an arms length from confused people who pretend to fly under the Christian banner.These endless arguments are never beneficial to Christianity.

The rapture is a factual event predicted in scripture. The timing of it is uncertain. Get over it folks. Thanks.

You will find a lot of folks who cannot handle this information .... however they boast they can handle the Anti-Christ . Nuthouse theology knows no bounds.

OK wise guy, you make so bold statements in your post, 'Arnie Manitoba' . You said, "The rapture is a factual event predicted in scripture" but let's count the scripture you quoted to back your statement, ZERO! Put up or shut up, 'Arnie Manitoba'. Let's see what you got, 'Arnie Manitoba'. I'm waiting!

 

[Foreigner]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ And yet this guy questions the tone of OTHERS on this board.


The simple fact is that God will return.

There is scripture (posted more than once on this board) supporting the idea that Christ will return BEFORE the Tribulation.

There is also scripture (posted more than once on this board) supporting the idea that Christ returns AT THE END of the Tribulation.

I have enjoyed the discussion mainly because I myself am not certain and am only looking for the truth, not trying to defend a position.

When you see scripture supporting both ideas you need to keep digging.

But the aggressive (read: mean) tone taken by those who do agree with Pre-Tribulation Rapture only hurts the discussion.

 

[tomwebster]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ And yet this guy questions the tone of OTHERS on this board.


The simple fact is that God will return.

There is scripture (posted more than once on this board) supporting the idea that Christ will return BEFORE the Tribulation.

...

So, foreigner, are you talking about I Thess or do you have more. You are going to build your theory on one misinterpreted verse. If so you WILL be deceived into worshipping The antichrist and that means "falling away" from the True Christ. How much oil you got foreigner?

 

[Foreigner]

Tom, much more scripture than one verse in Thess. has been posted on this board supporting Pre-Trib Rapture.

A simple perusal of other "Rapture" themed threads will bear that out.

If you are unware of that fact, that is a weakness on your part.

Don't make it worse by covering it with arrogance.




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[tomwebster]

Tom, much more scripture than one verse in Thess. has been posted on this board supporting Pre-Trib Rapture.

A simple perusal of other "Rapture" themed threads will bear that out.

If you are unware of that fact, that is a weakness on your part.

Don't make it worse by covering it with arrogance.

There are hundreds of "rapture" posts on this board. The main scripture used to try to support it is the I Thess verse and it clearly doesn't.

 

[Foreigner]

Ohhhh, so close.

Your actualy statement should have been: "ONE of the scriptures used to support Rapture is Thess."

There are many others.

Just - as I said - there are others supporting Christs return AFTER the Tribulation.

 

[tomwebster]

Ohhhh, so close.

Your actualy statement should have been: "ONE of the scriptures used to support Rapture is Thess."

There are many others.

"There are many others." Post a couple of them. The "thief in the night" verses have nothing to do with your rapture.

 

[Foreigner]

Sorry Tommy, not your whipping boy.

You can take the time to see for yourself or continue to stick your face in the sand and deny it.

You DO know how to search the topics on this board.....don't you?

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky, simple, because rapture or return or whatever word you prefer becomes raptures and returns. That's where the whole secret idea about some folks being taken away has manifested to fill that gap. Jesus only half comes back the first time in secret, and then he fully returns later when things get a lot worse is the idea. Problem is, it's still coming twice.

Say what whoever wants about rapture, harpazo, etc. but the Bible is pretty clear that things like trumps are noticeable. It is not a plural set of events nor is it some hidden thing.

As far as the word rapture goes, some are as rabid about that as they accuse others of being. The devotion to a word, whose meaning has shifted rather profoundly in the last 200 odd years or so is incessant as the other side's belief. I'm not one for these broad, sweeping generalizations because I've generally found that those who make them fall right under them in their own way...

At the end of the day, there is still too much cannot see the forest for the trees. The return is all about Jesus, period. If you know the Scripture, and truly know the Scripture, then you will recognize when these things begin to happen one way or another. You guys know me well, I've backed off of this argument in the past few years. I still very strongly believe that Christ returns after the tribulation, so don't mistake my doctrine; however, there are larger fish to fry. My fish right now happens to be Scripture knowledge, and I want to encourage other believers to be aware of the event Christ talked about many times in his life and Paul deals with in almost every letter he writes - not to mention the entire OT books devoted to the subject.

To equate the Zech and Thess accounts takes some stretching. I don't see it that way at all. To those following Jesus with all their hearts it won't matter either way.

So, foreigner, are you talking about I Thess or do you have more. You are going to build your theory on one misinterpreted verse. If so you WILL be deceived into worshipping The antichrist and that means "falling away" from the True Christ. How much oil you got foreigner?

Totally ridiculous!!!

 

[Foreigner]

Hammerstone, you are spot on when you say, "The return is all about Jesus, period."

Those who believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture will be shocked if it doesn't happen that way, but if they truly are following God they will be there at the end, as well, trusting and struggling.

If Jesus comes before the Tribulations, the post-tribbers will get a pleasant surprise. Hopefully, on the way up to meeting Christ in the clouds they will be apologizing to those the pre-Tribbers they attacked

 

[rockytopva]

Tom, much more scripture than one verse in Thess. has been posted on this board supporting Pre-Trib Rapture.

A simple perusal of other "Rapture" themed threads will bear that out.

If you are unware of that fact, that is a weakness on your part.

Don't make it worse by covering it with arrogance.

.

Foreigner... Well said... Thanks for the post.

 

[tomwebster]

Sorry Tommy, not your whipping boy.

You can take the time to see for yourself or continue to stick your face in the sand and deny it.

You DO know how to search the topics on this board.....don't you?

You foreigner are saying there are Scripture verses supporting the rapture but You foreigner can't come up with any of them. So YOU foreigner have nothing. It is not my job to try to support your FALSE theory. Now if You have the verses put up or shut up!

 

[rockytopva]

You foreigner are saying there are Scripture verses supporting the rapture but You foreigner can't come up with any of them. So YOU foreigner have nothing. It is not my job to try to support your FALSE theory. Now if You have the verses put up or shut up!

How... How are we going to return with Christ to reign with him if we were not caught up (rapture, whatever) with him to begin with?

Note: The marriage of the lamb happens before his return... If we were not caught up with him (raptured, whatever) how did we make with him back on earth to reign with him a 1,000 years?

[sup]5[/sup]And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. [sup]6[/sup]And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

[sup]7[/sup]Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

[sup]8[/sup]And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

[sup]9[/sup]And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

[sup]10[/sup]And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

[sup]11[/sup]And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

[sup]12[/sup]His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

[sup]13[/sup]And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

[sup]14[/sup]And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. - Revelation 19

 

[Foreigner]

Awwww Tommy, very Christian of you to say that. You are such an inspiration to us all.

You say it is not your job to support my false theory. If you were honest you would admit what other people can see just by reading my posts in this thread - I did not claim Pre-Trib Rapture NOR Christ's Post-Trib return as the truth.

And if you had the ability to read you would see I never asked for support of any kind from you....at all....ever.

If you actually wanted the truth, you would take 60 seconds and find out for yourself. (Less time than it takes to type yet another one of your bogus accusations).

You aren't interested in the truth, though. Only conflict.

Sorry to interject fact, but one of us had to.


I do owe you an apology, though.
Somehow I have given you the idea that your opinion on this issue matters to me. My bad.





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[tomwebster]

How... How are we going to return with Christ to reign with him if we were not caught up (rapture, whatever) with him to begin with?

Note: The marriage of the lamb happens before his return... If we were not caught up with him (raptured, whatever) how did we make with him back on earth to reign with him a 1,000 years?

Rocko, Christ is coming here for the marriage supper. The wife and bride are already here, they haven’t gone anywhere to need to come back. The 1000 year reign is here on earth, it’s not up in the sky somewhere. Those that come with Christ, when He comes, are those that have already died. They are the dead that your favorite verse in I Thess are talking about. They are the subject of that passage. They are that, " great a cloud of witnesses" Heb 12:1 is talking about.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[tomwebster]

...
If you actually wanted the truth, you would take 60 seconds and find out for yourself.
...

I know the Truth, I have studied it for years.

I have also read through a number of old rapture threads and have yet to find a credible rapture Scripture because there are none.