New Views on the Rapture

[veteran]

So stop condemning others until you are. You are only condemning yourself.

I don't see where Tom condemned you, nor anyone else to hell. I think you well know only our Lord Jesus has Authority to condemn a soul to hell. I'm sure Tom knows that too.

Your attempts at attacking one's credibility only point to your lack of Scripture study, for if you really could prove a pre-trib rapture doctrine, you would have been able to do by now. But you haven't. No one here has.

 

[Duckybill]

I don't see where Tom condemned you, nor anyone else to hell.

Gasp! Shock! You just haven't been paying attention.

Your attempts at attacking one's credibility only point to your lack of Scripture study, for if you really could prove a pre-trib rapture doctrine, you would have been able to do by now. But you haven't. No one here has.

What "credibility"?

 

[veteran]

Gasp! Shock! You just haven't been paying attention.

What "credibility"?

You do understand that to say one is in 'danger' of hellfire is not the same thing as saying someone is going to hell, don't you? Has Tom ever said that someone is going directly to hell? If he did, then he shouldn't have.

Anyone who does not believe on God's Promised Saviour Jesus Christ unto Salvation is... in danger of hellfire. Today's religious globalists don't want Christians to say that, because they want us to accept the lie that all religions are but equal paths to the same God. Christ Jesus is the ONLY Way of Salvation. All believers that refuse Jesus Christ are in danger. That's going to be a very important point per Scripture that only those in Christ Jesus will be making in these last days. Those who fall away will be afraid to say it.

 

[lioncubseal]

You do understand that to say one is in 'danger' of hellfire is not the same thing as saying someone is going to hell, don't you? Has Tom ever said that someone is going directly to hell? If he did, then he shouldn't have.

Anyone who does not believe on God's Promised Saviour Jesus Christ unto Salvation is... in danger of hellfire. Today's religious globalists don't want Christians to say that, because they want us to accept the lie that all religions are but equal paths to the same God. Christ Jesus is the ONLY Way of Salvation. All believers that refuse Jesus Christ are in danger. That's going to be a very important point per Scripture that only those in Christ Jesus will be making in these last days. Those who fall away will be afraid to say it.

So are YOU saved veteran? doesn't seem like the case with you so focused on hell and antichrist in your posts, seems like they can still affect you in some way

 

[Duckybill]

You do understand that to say one is in 'danger' of hellfire is not the same thing as saying someone is going to hell, don't you? Has Tom ever said that someone is going directly to hell? If he did, then he shouldn't have.

When asked, he won't answer. He just implies it often.

Anyone who does not believe on God's Promised Saviour Jesus Christ unto Salvation is... in danger of hellfire. Today's religious globalists don't want Christians to say that, because they want us to accept the lie that all religions are but equal paths to the same God. Christ Jesus is the ONLY Way of Salvation. All believers that refuse Jesus Christ are in danger.

All believers in what?

That's going to be a very important point per Scripture that only those in Christ Jesus will be making in these last days. Those who fall away will be afraid to say it.

To say that someone is going to Hell is to be clearly understood as , IF THEY DON'T REPENT.

Perhaps you would elaborate, are pre-trib believers going to Hell? This question is also for you Tomwebster.

 

[tomwebster]

When asked, he won't answer. He just implies it often.

All believers in what?

To say that someone is going to Hell is to be clearly understood as , IF THEY DON'T REPENT.

Perhaps you would elaborate, are pre-trib believers going to Hell? This question is also for you Tomwebster.

And as I've answered a number of times, I am not the one to make that decision. God is the judge.

 

[Duckybill]

And as I've answered a number of times, I am not the one to make that decision.

Just the implication, over and over?

 

[veteran]

When asked, he won't answer. He just implies it often.

Why must you insist on asking him such a thing? Is it just so you can use that as evidence to discredit him? That sort of questioning the unbelieving Jews tried to use on our Lord Jesus quite often, trying to trap His words so they could have somewhat to hold against Him.

All believers in what?

All believers of the various religions of the world. Although man calls Christianity a 'religion', in actuality it is not a religion. It is the Truth, which is much different than man playing religion. No one will be saved by believing on religion, but only by believing on Jesus Christ The Saviour.

To say that someone is going to Hell is to be clearly understood as , IF THEY DON'T REPENT.

Perhaps you would elaborate, are pre-trib believers going to Hell? This question is also for you Tomwebster.

Only our Lord Jesus Christ can condemn someone to hell. But Christ's servants are given to warn others of that danger, and we are to check ourselves to guard our standing in Christ Jesus. As our Lord said, don't fear those who can kill the body and there's nothing more they can do, but fear Him Who is able to destroy both body and soul into hell (lake of fire) (Matt.10:28).

Concerning those on the pre-trib rapture idea, they are in danger of falling away to the wrong messiah, a warning that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us in His Word. Some on the pre-trib rapture idea will leave that doctrine when they begin to see the endtime events play out differently than what they had been taught. Others will continue to follow it blindly, and will become part of the apostasy Paul warned of in 2 Thess.2 involving a false one coming to sit in the temple of God, to show himself that he is God.

Luke 23:28-30
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'"
(KJV)

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus gave that warning to whom? To the wicked that don't know Him? No. To whom then? To those who claim to believe on Him. It is a warning to us to keep our garments so we don't walk naked in shame. The garments are about our white robes from works which follow us to Heaven (Rev.14:13).

Our Lord Jesus warned us about 'a pseudo Christ' (pseudochristos) coming to work signs and wonders on earth and said to not believe on that one. Apostle Paul gave that warning also. Our Lord Jesus made it very plain in His Book of Revelation about that false one who comes first. The Book of Daniel also gives us warning about the final antichrist coming in the last generation.

So it's not like our Lord Jesus didn't warn us already, for He has. None of those who claim to believe on Him will have excuse in mistaking the coming pseudo-Christ that will appear on earth first, working great signs and miracles that would deceive even Christ's elect IF it were possible for His elect to be deceived. Those on the pre-trib rapture theory are taught none of that will affect them, since that doctrine is about the idea of flying away to Heaven prior that pseudo-Christ showing up. That doctrine's preaching that there's a coming by Christ to rapture them to Heaven prior to the tribulation is a direct play into the pseudo-Christ's hands, for that is who the instigators of that doctrine are going to be saying is our Lord Jesus come to rapture us away. Instead, we are to wait for Christ Jesus' coming after that pseudo-Christ does his thing.

 

[Duckybill]

Why must you insist on asking him such a thing? Is it just so you can use that as evidence to discredit him? That sort of questioning the unbelieving Jews tried to use on our Lord Jesus quite often, trying to trap His words so they could have somewhat to hold against Him.

The answer is quite simple. Because you both constantly imply that pre-trib believers are not ready and will worship the anti-Christ.

No one will be saved by believing on religion, but only by believing on Jesus Christ The Saviour.

So then you believe pre-tribbers are Christians too and are saved?

Only our Lord Jesus Christ can condemn someone to hell. But Christ's servants are given to warn others of that danger, and we are to check ourselves to guard our standing in Christ Jesus. As our Lord said, don't fear those who can kill the body and there's nothing more they can do, but fear Him Who is able to destroy both body and soul into hell (lake of fire) (Matt.10:28).

Concerning those on the pre-trib rapture idea, they are in danger of falling away to the wrong messiah, a warning that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us in His Word. Some on the pre-trib rapture idea will leave that doctrine when they begin to see the endtime events play out differently than what they had been taught. Others will continue to follow it blindly, and will become part of the apostasy Paul warned of in 2 Thess.2 involving a false one coming to sit in the temple of God, to show himself that he is God.

Luke 23:28-30
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'"
(KJV)

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus gave that warning to whom? To the wicked that don't know Him? No. To whom then? To those who claim to believe on Him. It is a warning to us to keep our garments so we don't walk naked in shame. The garments are about our white robes from works which follow us to Heaven (Rev.14:13).

Our Lord Jesus warned us about 'a pseudo Christ' (pseudochristos) coming to work signs and wonders on earth and said to not believe on that one. Apostle Paul gave that warning also. Our Lord Jesus made it very plain in His Book of Revelation about that false one who comes first. The Book of Daniel also gives us warning about the final antichrist coming in the last generation.

So it's not like our Lord Jesus didn't warn us already, for He has. None of those who claim to believe on Him will have excuse in mistaking the coming pseudo-Christ that will appear on earth first, working great signs and miracles that would deceive even Christ's elect IF it were possible for His elect to be deceived. Those on the pre-trib rapture theory are taught none of that will affect them, since that doctrine is about the idea of flying away to Heaven prior that pseudo-Christ showing up. That doctrine's preaching that there's a coming by Christ to rapture them to Heaven prior to the tribulation is a direct play into the pseudo-Christ's hands, for that is who the instigators of that doctrine are going to be saying is our Lord Jesus come to rapture us away. Instead, we are to wait for Christ Jesus' coming after that pseudo-Christ does his thing.

So if your anti-Rapture doctrine is erroneous then where does that leave you and tomwebster?

 

[veteran]

The answer is quite simple. Because you both constantly imply that pre-trib believers are not ready and will worship the anti-Christ.

So then you believe pre-tribbers are Christians too and are saved?

So if your anti-Rapture doctrine is erroneous then where does that leave you and tomwebster?

Those who hold to the pre-trib rapture idea are in danger of falling to the pseudo-Christ who is to come first. But that falling away in false worship has not happened yet, for that particular pseudo-Christ is not here yet today. As of right now it's impossible to know exactly who WILL mistakedly bow to him in place of our Lord Jesus. We can only know that many will fall to him per the prophecy, but not exactly who just yet.

Dan 11:35
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
(KJV)

Because the pseudo-Christ comes first prior to Christ's coming to gather us after the tribulation, that's enough revealing that the pre-trib doctrine is a dangerous idea to put trust in.

 

[veteran]

So then you believe pre-tribbers are Christians too and are saved?

It's my hope that all who truly believe on Christ Jesus will be saved in final. But can I speak for another soul that might turn away from Christ of their own choice, and instead be subject to the lake of fire? No, I can't speak for that soul, nor can you. If you or I tried to, then that would be stepping in between that soul and Christ's Authority and Power.

Those who believe on our Lord Jesus but out of ignorance fall to the pseudo-Christ will be spiritually naked and in shame when Christ returns. They will be subject to the "second death", but it doesn't mean they will already experience that, since the second death is set only for the end of Christ's future thousand years reign. That understanding comes from paying attention in the Rev.20 chapter, and in the OT prophets about Christ's future thousand years reign with His elect.

 

[Duckybill]

Ok vet, then you admit that pre-tribbers can be as much Christian as you and tomwebster?

 

[veteran]

So if your anti-Rapture doctrine is erroneous then where does that leave you and tomwebster?

If God's Holy Writ is Truth, then all of It is against the pre-trib rapture doctrine. It's simple to discover that by heeding His Word as written, for there is no Scripture evidence for a pre-trib rapture of the saints by Christ prior to the tribulation.

Since there is no Scripture evidence of a pre-trib gathering of the saints to Heaven, but plenty of Scripture evidence for a gathering of the saints by Christ AFTER the tribulation, the real question should be, where does that leave you?

 

[Duckybill]

If God's Holy Writ is Truth, then all of It is against the pre-trib rapture doctrine. It's simple to discover that by heeding His Word as written, for there is no Scripture evidence for a pre-trib rapture of the saints by Christ prior to the tribulation.

Since there is no Scripture evidence of a pre-trib gathering of the saints to Heaven, but plenty of Scripture evidence for a gathering of the saints by Christ AFTER the tribulation, the real question should be, where does that leave you?

And that's your opinion. I'm sure you will admit that you are not infallible.

 

[veteran]

And that's your opinion. I'm sure you will admit that you are not infallible.

You don't have opinion?

What is opinion anyway? If two people study on how to charge a car battery using a charger, and one of them mixes up the positive and negative sides, what's going to happen, in your opinion?

 

[Duckybill]

You don't have opinion?

What is opinion anyway? If two people study on how to charge a car battery using a charger, and one of them mixes up the positive and negative sides, what's going to happen, in your opinion?

My opinion is that those who deny the rapture are more likely to worship the anti-Christ than pre-tribbers. What if your opinion on the 'rapture' is wrong?

 

[Foreigner]

Who among any of us here are able to say that Christians who believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture are condemned for believing that?

To put it bluntly, none of us is qualified to do that.

The people that believe this are people that love Jesus just as much as you and I.

You should be more concerned how well they are going to handle it if it is found they are incorrect and Jesus doesn't return until after the Tribulation.

Using the standard some people her are using, if the Pre-Trib Rapture turns out to be correct, those who don't believe it will not be taken up.....because they didn't believe it. Regardless of their relationship with Jesus.


So, to put it more succinctly, a belief in something such as the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT negate a Christian's salvation if it is wrong.

They have still given their life to Jesus, trying to live a life free of sin, trying to serve him with their whole heart.

If you believe they are wrong, you should pray they "see the light" or that they are spiritually mature enough in God to handle it when the time their believe the Rapture was going to occur passes.

Not one person on this board is qualified to say this specfiic believe negates their salvation.

 

[Duckybill]

Who among any of us here are able to say that Christians who believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture are condemned for believing that?

To put it bluntly, none of us is qualified to do that.

Agreed

The people that believe this are people that love Jesus just as much as you and I.

You should be more concerned how well they are going to handle it if it is found they are incorrect and Jesus doesn't return until after the Tribulation.

Using the standard some people her are using, if the Pre-Trib Rapture turns out to be correct, those who don't believe it will not be taken up.....because they didn't believe it. Regardless of their relationship with Jesus.

I would agree in part. But those who make remarks like pre-tribbers are going to worship the anti-Christ and who are dedicated to fighting against pre-trib are not likely candidates if they are wrong.

So, to put it more succinctly, a belief in something such as the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT negate a Christian's salvation if it is wrong.

They have still given their life to Jesus, trying to live a life free of sin, trying to serve him with their whole heart.

Agreed

If you believe they are wrong, you should pray they "see the light" or that they are spiritually mature enough in God to handle it when the time their believe the Rapture was going to occur passes.

Not one person on this board is qualified to say this specfiic believe negates their salvation.

Why be silent about the subject? They aren't.

 

[veteran]

My opinion is that those who deny the rapture are more likely to worship the anti-Christ than pre-tribbers. What if your opinion on the 'rapture' is wrong?

Well, I see you didn't give an answer to my question. Opinion is simply about our understanding of something, and does not necessarily mean being outside the truth.

If one gives only their 'opinion' on a matter without offering evidence for that opinion, then opinion becomes conjecture and supposition. In that case, there's only a 50-50 chance of being correct. Hook up the battery cables based only upon conjecture and supposition and you've got a 50-50 chance of causing an arc that could hurt you.

An idea that there's only a 50% chance that the pre-trib rapture is wrong or right is conjecture and supposition, and assigns God's Word as not being credible enough on the matter to teach us the difference. It would mean being in confusion, never being sure which way it will be.

Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles did not present that kind of confusion, because His coming and our gathering to Him is written in His Word exactly how it will be and in what event order. Those who disregard it 'as written' have to default to conjecture and supposition instead, which is what language like, "but what if you're wrong and they're right" is about.

 

[Foreigner]

Ducky I am not suggesting anyone "be silent" on the subject - unless they want to claim that someone who believes in Pre-Tribulation has somehow forfeited their salvation.

A person who says that a Pre-Tribber is more likely to worship the anti-Christ shows there is no real interst there in finding out any truth.

Once the discussion has moved to something like that, any chance of real give and take is gone.