New years eve comet

[michaelvpardo]

I just ran across an on line story that we're being visited by a comet which should be visible on New years eve. I'm not really about looking for signs in the sky or signs of the times, but comets were once looked at as signs or omens (possibly because of the first chapter of Genesis) and the signs keep popping up everywhere. I hope its a clear night. I always enjoyed astronomy and might even take out my cheap telescope for a closer look.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/look-to-the-sky-for-new-years-eve-comet/ar-BBxHzn5?OCID=ansmsnnews11

 

[michaelvpardo]

I went out in the yard with the dog at about 6:10 this evening and though the horizon was a little cloudy the brightest object in the sky was a "star" to the south west approximately 220 degrees from magnetic north. The moon is just beyond "New" phase and wasn't visible so it would be hard to rule out the planet Venus.

 

[pompadour]

I see you are from the east cost. I read a article on the comet. It said that you could see it just to the left of the moon just after sun set. but will need your telescope because it is very faint. but if you want to wait 5 yrs it will be back then.
pomp.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I see you are from the east cost. I read a article on the comet. It said that you could see it just to the left of the moon just after sun set. but will need your telescope because it is very faint. but if you want to wait 5 yrs it will be back then.
pomp.

Perhaps, but what I observed tonight was brighter than any star that I've ever seen in the night sky anywhere from here to California (and it definitely appeared stationary until disappearing beyond the horizon.) Of course with the sky partially obscured I couldn't see any crescent and the new moon was yesterday. I actually tried to take a picture and some short video with my amazon kindle, but the viewing angle doesn't allow you to see more than a white dot in a black field near the tops of some dimly illumined trees. At 6:00 it was fairly high and close to the ecliptic and I would make a guesstimate that it was about 45 degrees above the horizon. I could probably use a protractor to make a more accurate measurement of the angle from my sighting point to the location marked by the trees, but If my Meade star-finder software is still functional on my old computer, I should be able to check the time and location for known objects (known at the time the software was developed.)
I was trying to upload the image of the "dot" but having some trouble with the file extension not being supported, and there isn't much to see anyway. I hope we have clear nights for the next few days (and warm enough temperatures to keep me from shaking too much.)

 

[michaelvpardo]

A review of the night sky for last evening showed Venus big and bright where the star was seen, just a few degrees off of the ecliptic and within the constellation of Aquarius. The moon was just slightly above the western horizon, and so obscured by terrain and clouds. I think that I'll drag my telescope out this evening anyway, just for practice (I don't thing that the comet would be visible from my position if its in close proximity to the moon.)

 

[Stranger]

I just ran across an on line story that we're being visited by a comet which should be visible on New years eve. I'm not really about looking for signs in the sky or signs of the times, but comets were once looked at as signs or omens (possibly because of the first chapter of Genesis) and the signs keep popping up everywhere. I hope its a clear night. I always enjoyed astronomy and might even take out my cheap telescope for a closer look.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/look-to-the-sky-for-new-years-eve-comet/ar-BBxHzn5?OCID=ansmsnnews11

I am curious. What is your opinion of the star In (Mat. 2:2) ? "Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

Stranger

 

[michaelvpardo]

What is your opinion of the star In (Mat. 2:2) ? "Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

Stranger[/quote]
I think that the visitors were most likely astrologers or navigators or they probably would never have noticed a new star with relative motion to the rest (to an Earth observer all the stars move because the Earth rotates). In the predictive system of Astrology, the positions of the moon and the "wandering stars" (planets) in respect to the fixed stars of the constellations is supposed to indicate things and conditions upon the Earth. Unusual celestial events also would indicate something of greater significance. For example, the placement of Venus in the constellation Leo could represent kingdom authority. The "wise men" may have had some knowledge of scripture as you would expect such men to collect written works on science and religion and may have been looking for the right celestial events to indicate the coming of the Great King. We are told that at the time of Christs birth there was already a messianic expectation and these men may have been aware and anticipated the event. Clearly, the star that they followed had to be a special event in that neither the fixed stars or planets settle over a specific location for any significant time.
If you do a word study on stars in the Old Testament, you'll also find that star is sometimes interchangeable with the word Angel, and angels are typically descibed in terms of luminosity, so I wouldn't have a problem with the idea that they were lead by an angel that appeared to them as a star to guide them as navigators to the place of the Christ's birth. If you're more inclined to seek more natural explanations to strange occurances in scripture, then the object could've been a comet. A comet would appear first as a very dim star, but would get brighter as it approached the Earth. When it was near enough to the Sun you would also expect to see the characteristic luminous tail of debris. I don't know any Greek or Hebrew other than the words that I look up in a concordance and I know of no mention of a comet in the Bible so I couldn't say what the ancients would call one, but a comet on an approach close to the Earth could conceivably appear to settle for a while at a fixed spot in space, but would still move with the Earths 24 hour rotation though in small circles if nearer to the direction of the Earth 's axis.
Personally I'm inclined to believe that the star was an angelic manifestation as I also believe that some UFO phenomena are spiritual manifestations.

 

[Stranger]

What is your opinion of the star In (Mat. 2:2) ? "Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

Stranger

I think that the visitors were most likely astrologers or navigators or they probably would never have noticed a new star with relative motion to the rest (to an Earth observer all the stars move because the Earth rotates). In the predictive system of Astrology, the positions of the moon and the "wandering stars" (planets) in respect to the fixed stars of the constellations is supposed to indicate things and conditions upon the Earth. Unusual celestial events also would indicate something of greater significance. For example, the placement of Venus in the constellation Leo could represent kingdom authority. The "wise men" may have had some knowledge of scripture as you would expect such men to collect written works on science and religion and may have been looking for the right celestial events to indicate the coming of the Great King. We are told that at the time of Christs birth there was already a messianic expectation and these men may have been aware and anticipated the event. Clearly, the star that they followed had to be a special event in that neither the fixed stars or planets settle over a specific location for any significant time.
If you do a word study on stars in the Old Testament, you'll also find that star is sometimes interchangeable with the word Angel, and angels are typically descibed in terms of luminosity, so I wouldn't have a problem with the idea that they were lead by an angel that appeared to them as a star to guide them as navigators to the place of the Christ's birth. If you're more inclined to seek more natural explanations to strange occurances in scripture, then the object could've been a comet. A comet would appear first as a very dim star, but would get brighter as it approached the Earth. When it was near enough to the Sun you would also expect to see the characteristic luminous tail of debris. I don't know any Greek or Hebrew other than the words that I look up in a concordance and I know of no mention of a comet in the Bible so I couldn't say what the ancients would call one, but a comet on an approach close to the Earth could conceivably appear to settle for a while at a fixed spot in space, but would still move with the Earths 24 hour rotation though in small circles if nearer to the direction of the Earth 's axis.
Personally I'm inclined to believe that the star was an angelic manifestation as I also believe that some UFO phenomena are spiritual manifestations.

[/QUOTE]
It is interesting. For why would they, the wisemen, be looking for a star? Why would they, the wise men, associate it with a Messiah to Israel, as they were not Israelites? There is a book called 'Gospel in the Stars' by Alfred Seiss, I believe. You may be interested.

Stranger

 

[michaelvpardo]

It is interesting. For why would they, the wisemen, be looking for a star? Why would they, the wise men, associate it with a Messiah to Israel, as they were not Israelites? There is a book called 'Gospel in the Stars' by Alfred Seiss, I believe. You may be interested.

Stranger

I've heard about the book though I've never read it and there may be some validity to it, however, this is my objection to such things: The stars as a whole are nothing more than points of light in the sky to us as observers on the Earth. The constellations are mental constructs, pictures of legendary or mythical figures superimposed over groups of stars that appear to be close together from our perspective (though are believed to be quite far apart and sometimes in different "star systems".) The human mind imagines the image to be superimposed over the stars and imagines the relationships between such images, so any truth that may be derived from looking at the stars is simply truth derived from the human mind. If people can see the gospel in the stars, then it is the mind that has constructed the story out of "points of light" and imagination.
Now, God who has created all things is perfectly capable of putting the idea of a particular constellation into our mind and the idea of a particular relationship, but I'm also inclined to believe that spiritual beings such as angels and demons are able to enter into human bodies to use them for a time or a season and can influence or even over ride our will. This is what the bible is teaching us when describing demonic possessions at the very least, but it would also seem that some form of permission is required by God to legitimately do this (as with the Gadarene demoniac and the herd of swine in the gospels.) God's law specifically warns the Israelites (and us through them) not to worship the stars, the sun and moon, but also tells us that they were given for signs and for seasons. So it was God's intent from the beginning to use the stars, Sun and Moon as means to guide humans, but not as gods, rather as ministers of His grace (If we had no way to determine seasons, many crops would be lost and many people would starve for lack of food out of season.)
When considering the ancient world, and especially men of rank and knowledge, you have to consider that reading and writing would be available to only a privileged few. There was no public education and private education was only for those who could afford it. The wise men, though not Israelites, were most likely familiar with the God of Israel. The scripture tells us that God chose Israel, not simply for Israel's benefit (or there would have been no curses for disobedience), but as a light to the world around them. God's choice of Israel was of making a special people to be an example to the world, not just to us now, but to the world then. The Philistines, for example, believed in their own gods, such as Dagon, but they also believed in the God of Israel, especially in the time when they had captured the ark of the covenant and took it to their cities. The peoples around Israel worshiped a pantheon of local gods (demons), but recognized a hierarchy among "the gods" yet differed on who it was that was Lord over them all. The Bible tells us that at least some of them came to believe that the God of Israel is indeed the Lord over all creation. Nebuchadnezzar was one such man, the ruler of "Babylon the great" who worshiped his own gods, but came to acknowledge the God of the Jews to be the "Most High God," and issued proclamations to honor this God of all gods. King Cyrus was another such man. To me it isn't so strange that some wise men came from the east to seek out the Christ. To me it is strange that wise men didn't come from all directions to seek out the Christ, as the influence of Israel had passed through most of the known world to some extent prior to Jesus's birth, at least as far south as Ethiopia, as far west as Spain, as far north as Asia minor, and as far east as the gates of China (on the trade routes.)

 

[Stranger]

Michael V Pardo

You made quite a leap from astronomy to demon possession. I don't see the connection.

If God is the One who created the heavenly zodiac for man to observe prior to the written revelation, then it is not man just seeing something that is not there. In fact, there is really no way to look at those star configurations and come up with their representations that are given. And, if God is the originator of the zodiac, not for future telling but for the gospel, then at that time it would not have been wrong for people to recognize it as such.

Yes, the heavenly bodies are given for signs and seasons. But you acknowledge only the 'seasons'. How are they for signs?

Israel's enemies did not believe in the God of Israel. Else they would not be their enemies. That some from those countries did learn of the God of Israel and come to him by faith, yes. Perhaps the magi were such. Perhaps they observed the gospel written in the stars.

Why should it seem strange to you that people didn't come from everywhere to observe the birth of Christ? One must first be a believer, irregardless of the revelation they have.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

there is a connection between the Magi and Daniel, i think it was, who was exiled to Babylon, and studied with them, thus aligning their perspective of the heavens with God.

this guy is big on that, has the correct names for all of the planets, etc. pretty interesting imo

http://www.biblenews1.com/astrology/astrology.html

 

[michaelvpardo]

Michael V Pardo

You made quite a leap from astronomy to demon possession. I don't see the connection.

If God is the One who created the heavenly zodiac for man to observe prior to the written revelation, then it is not man just seeing something that is not there. In fact, there is really no way to look at those star configurations and come up with their representations that are given. And, if God is the originator of the zodiac, not for future telling but for the gospel, then at that time it would not have been wrong for people to recognize it as such.

Yes, the heavenly bodies are given for signs and seasons. But you acknowledge only the 'seasons'. How are they for signs?

Israel's enemies did not believe in the God of Israel. Else they would not be their enemies. That some from those countries did learn of the God of Israel and come to him by faith, yes. Perhaps the magi were such. Perhaps they observed the gospel written in the stars.

Why should it seem strange to you that people didn't come from everywhere to observe the birth of Christ? One must first be a believer, irregardless of the revelation they have.

Stranger

First of all, the stars of the Zodiac belt are the stars of the Zodiac belt because they lie close to what we call "the ecliptic." The ecliptic is a mathematical plane which cuts through the sun and the orbit of the planets (roughly). That is the planets orbit the sun, mostly, in the plane of the ecliptic, and I say mostly because some of the planetary orbits are not within the plane, but fall a few degrees out of it and pass through it twice during their orbits. Different cultures in the past in remotely distant parts of the globe have used "zodiacal signs" to determine the seasons, planting and harvest time, animal rutting season, etc., but have used different animals or creatures in their Zodiac. The most easily verifiable is the Chinese Zodiac, which includes a "monkey," a "rat," a "horse," just to name a few, which aren't found in the western Zodiac. Each sign, regardless of what it is called or recognized to represent, is found in the same part of the sky at a particular time of the year which remains the same from year to year, so they have become man's stellar calendar.

Secondly, although the nations have worshiped demons as their gods, most ancient peoples have recognized some hierarchy in their pantheon of gods which is ruled by a "first father and mother" or a more ambiguous "Creator" of all. Some only recognized a "force" or "way" as the prime mover in creation, but some, such as "Aton" the god of the Egyptian Pharaoh Ikhnaton were seen abstractly as the originator of all things and the creator of all life.

Thirdly, during the reign of Solomon, the third king of Israel, the nations of the known world paid tribute to the king of Israel because of His wisdom (attributed to his relationship with his God). Solomon had trade deals with peoples all over the known world and accumulated more wealth than any man alive. This had to be noticed by the surrounding kingdoms (with envy,) but the local kingdoms wouldn't necessarily have thought of Solomon's God being their own, because they believed that the gods have geographical areas for which they take responsibility and rule (these gods are mentioned in scripture as powers, authorities, principalities, etc., and as demons). In other words, they could've believed that the Jews had a powerful god ruling over their land, without believing in the God of all creation, or that they worshiped Him.

I have mentioned how astrologers have used the stars for signs, but I don't know how any one else would, except as omens, which falls into the category of superstition rather than religious practice.

 

[bbyrd009]

it is one thing to seek omens, and another to be able to understand them when they present themselves imo.

 

[Stranger]

First of all, the stars of the Zodiac belt are the stars of the Zodiac belt because they lie close to what we call "the ecliptic." The ecliptic is a mathematical plane which cuts through the sun and the orbit of the planets (roughly). That is the planets orbit the sun, mostly, in the plane of the ecliptic, and I say mostly because some of the planetary orbits are not within the plane, but fall a few degrees out of it and pass through it twice during their orbits. Different cultures in the past in remotely distant parts of the globe have used "zodiacal signs" to determine the seasons, planting and harvest time, animal rutting season, etc., but have used different animals or creatures in their Zodiac. The most easily verifiable is the Chinese Zodiac, which includes a "monkey," a "rat," a "horse," just to name a few, which aren't found in the western Zodiac. Each sign, regardless of what it is called or recognized to represent, is found in the same part of the sky at a particular time of the year which remains the same from year to year, so they have become man's stellar calendar.

Secondly, although the nations have worshiped demons as their gods, most ancient peoples have recognized some hierarchy in their pantheon of gods which is ruled by a "first father and mother" or a more ambiguous "Creator" of all. Some only recognized a "force" or "way" as the prime mover in creation, but some, such as "Aton" the god of the Egyptian Pharaoh Ikhnaton were seen abstractly as the originator of all things and the creator of all life.

Thirdly, during the reign of Solomon, the third king of Israel, the nations of the known world paid tribute to the king of Israel because of His wisdom (attributed to his relationship with his God). Solomon had trade deals with peoples all over the known world and accumulated more wealth than any man alive. This had to be noticed by the surrounding kingdoms (with envy,) but the local kingdoms wouldn't necessarily have thought of Solomon's God being their own, because they believed that the gods have geographical areas for which they take responsibility and rule (these gods are mentioned in scripture as powers, authorities, principalities, etc., and as demons). In other words, they could've believed that the Jews had a powerful god ruling over their land, without believing in the God of all creation, or that they worshiped Him.

I have mentioned how astrologers have used the stars for signs, but I don't know how any one else would, except as omens, which falls into the category of superstition rather than religious practice.

So, you don't know how God used the stars for signs. And you declare the Bible, superstition?

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

ha well it isn't exactly a major theme of Scripture, Stranger. No one connects it with belief in God anymore today. C'mon.

Do you know the laws of the heavens,
Or do you establish their rule over the Earth? (Job 38:33)

i mean, we have, what, 10 vv maybe, that even allude to Biblical Astronomy. It is effectively a lost art.

 

[Stranger]

ha well it isn't exactly a major theme of Scripture, Stranger. No one connects it with belief in God anymore today. C'mon.

Do you know the laws of the heavens,
Or do you establish their rule over the Earth? (Job 38:33)

i mean, we have, what, 10 vv maybe, that even allude to Biblical Astronomy. It is effectively a lost art.

I wasn't talkin to you.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

I have mentioned how astrologers have used the stars for signs, but I don't know how any one else would, except as omens, which falls into the category of superstition rather than religious practice.

suffice it to say that while we do ascribe astrology to superstition now, because people go to "astrologers" to seek omens, this does not negate that God uses known symbology to write in the heavens, and that this writing can be read by people, or misread, i guess.

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky proclaims the work of His hands.

 

[michaelvpardo]

So, you don't know how God used the stars for signs. And you declare the Bible, superstition?

Stranger

No one alive knows how God used the stars for signs (in the past) with the exception of their mention in scriptural books as signs (such as those verses in the book of the Revelation that specifically identify certain celestial activity as signs of the return of Christ.) But I've never declared the Bible to be anything other than the written word of God and this I have declared for the better part of 21 years now.
I do this because the Bible was among the first books that I ever read and continued to reread throughout my lifetime, but it wasn't until I was born again, at the age of 39, that the Lord opened the meaning of scripture to me through His Spirit. Since His Spirit verifies the validity of His word and the testimony of Jesus called the Christ, I have no need of any further validation through human means. To the contrary, I have studied the sciences (though none as deeply as biology) in at least the manner of a survey of all that is natural and found that the sciences fall short of providing proof of anything. I don't need practical models of existence that change with the times and with human perceptions and deceptions when I have the book given to man to introduce us to the beauty of God's Son in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.

 

[michaelvpardo]

suffice it to say that while we do ascribe astrology to superstition now, because people go to "astrologers" to seek omens, this does not negate that God uses known symbology to write in the heavens, and that this writing can be read by people, or misread, i guess.

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky proclaims the work of His hands.

I don't put any weight in modern astrology because, as I've alluded to, people reading stars or cards or crystal balls give meaning to their visions from their own minds which are typically corrupted, carnal, and separated from the grace of God. I might regard the visions of one who has been born again of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy and we are exhorted not to despise prophecy, but if you run across a "christian" fortune teller, or psychic, then you've come across a rebellious and disobedient Christian if Christian at all (we have specific prohibitions in scripture about such things and for good reason.)
I was discussing this topic with a brother in the Lord just last night, and I said to him "God is perfectly able to speak to people from a comic book if He desired to do so, but chose to use men from His chosen people, Israel, to reveal His will and His word in the person of His Son." My brother Jerome is in agreement and we have this from scripture, that God has elevated His word above His name and that His word is settled in heaven. The only place the word of God is in dispute is in the hearts of men.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't put any weight in modern astrology because, as I've alluded to, people reading stars or cards or crystal balls give meaning to their visions from their own minds which are typically corrupted, carnal, and separated from the grace of God. I might regard the visions of one who has been born again of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy and we are exhorted not to despise prophecy, but if you run across a "christian" fortune teller, or psychic, then you've come across a rebellious and disobedient Christian if Christian at all (we have specific prohibitions in scripture about such things and for good reason.)
I was discussing this topic with a brother in the Lord just last night, and I said to him "God is perfectly able to speak to people from a comic book if He desired to do so, but chose to use men from His chosen people, Israel, to reveal His will and His word in the person of His Son." My brother Jerome is in agreement and we have this from scripture, that God has elevated His word above His name and that His word is settled in heaven. The only place the word of God is in dispute is in the hearts of men.

well, i agree there, even if you still currently hold that the Word is the Bible. But i would maybe suggest that there is such a thing as Biblical Astrology, even if i am not much into it myself. The guy at the link i gave does not prognosticate or divine with it. Tbh he is a bit too fundamental for me in his interpretations, but if you might agree that it seems everyone gets a little truth, or everyone touches a little part of the elephant, then this is likely his part. Hardly a big deal to me, though. I'm kind of surprised that he didn't chart the comet, he usually does those, but i notice it was a busy week.