NEWSFLASH: Abraham was not a Jew. Neither was Isaac. Neither was Jacob.

[ewq1938]

@ewq1938 That's only when Paul was speaking about the covenant of law vs the new covenant. But there are not only two testaments|covenants, which was @covenantee 's argument, which is what I replied to when you chirped your bit into the conversation.

You addressed the post to me.

There are not only two covenants,

Again this boring strawman fallacy.

Your argument is the only straw man fallacy argument in this conversation.

No, you have been the only one of us to use it. I don't attack made up positions and beliefs.

 

[Timtofly]

A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. --Romans 11:25.

You just refuted your own point. If they are hardened, they certainly have not had their sin removed. When Jesus comes out of heavenly Zion at the Second Coming, their sin will be removed. That is when all of Israel will be saved, and Jesus will reign as King.

 

[Zao is life]

You just refuted your own point. If they are hardened, they certainly have not had their sin removed. When Jesus comes out of heavenly Zion at the Second Coming, their sin will be removed. That is when all of Israel will be saved, and Jesus will reign as King.

All Israel is Jews in Christ and Gentiles in Christ. He took away their sins and our sins once for all, nearly 2,000 years ago. The second coming of Christ is time for judgment of all who have rejected the gospel. There will be no more opportunity then for any human being's repentance. He's not going to die a second time. There will be no second sacrifice for sins when Jesus returns.

 

[Zao is life]

You addressed the post to me.

You answered a post I addressed to @covenantee only (no one else) so I copied him on my reply.

This is a silly argument about nothing that I ended up in with someone being argumentative about nothing. If it continues you will find yourself arguing with yourself because I'm out of this little argument of yours now.

 

[Timtofly]

All Israel is Jews in Christ and Gentiles in Christ. He took away their sins and our sins once for all, nearly 2,000 years ago. The second coming of Christ is time for judgment of all who have rejected the gospel. There will be no more opportunity then for any human being's repentance. He's not going to die a second time. There will be no second sacrifice for sins when Jesus returns.

That is not what I posted nor implied. That is your human understanding that there is not going to be a future reign of Jesus as King on the earth. Then you set up a fallacy that Jesus has to be the Messiah all over again.

That judgment of the Second Coming is the removal of sin from creation. You know the total removal that you only apply in a theological contrivance?

There will be humanity on earth living without sin, a sin nature, nor Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Not just half of humanity. 100% of humanity. And Israel will be restored as a nation.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Newsflash: Abraham was not a Jew.
Neither was Isaac.
Neither was Jacob/Israel
Neither were Reuben and his descendants
Neither were Gad and his descendants
Neither were Asher and his descendants
Neither were Naphtlai and his descendants
Neither were Dan and his descendants
Neither were Simeon and his descendants
Neither were Levi and his descendants
Neither were Issachar and his descendants
Neither were Zebulun and his descendants
Neither were Joseph and his descendants
Neither were Ephraim, son of Joseph, a Gentile born in Egypt to an Egyptian mother, whose seed would become the fullness of the Gentiles/a multitude of nations, and his descendants
Neither were Manasseh, son of Joseph, a Gentile born in Egypt to an Egyptian mother, and his descendants

The vast majority of all the above descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were exiled in 725 B.C, ceased being a nation before God, and became scattered among the nations, where their descendants have continued to intermarry with Gentiles in the nations to this day.

Neither was Benjamin a Jew, but the majority of his descendants eventually became amalgamated with the Jews.

Judah was the patriarch of the Jews - but Newsflash: Abraham was not a Jew.

Neither was Isaac.
Neither was Jacob/Israel.

The biblical scriptures are not about "the Jews". They are about God's promise to Abraham that he would become a father of a multitude of goy (nations), and that in Abraham's seed (Christ) all the families of the earth will be blessed.
​

The biblical scriptures are about THE seed of Abraham, who is Jesus.

Hope this helps some people to overcome their obsession with "the Jews".

I say, this closing remark bodes Ill will.
"Hope this helps some people to overcome their obsession with "the Jews"."

The timing given the assault on Israel does too.

Obsession with the Jews? Why,Christians would never feel anything like thaaaat!

 

[covenantee]

That is not what I posted nor implied. That is your human understanding that there is not going to be a future reign of Jesus as King on the earth. Then you set up a fallacy that Jesus has to be the Messiah all over again.

That judgment of the Second Coming is the removal of sin from creation. You know the total removal that you only apply in a theological contrivance?

There will be humanity on earth living without sin, a sin nature, nor Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Not just half of humanity. 100% of humanity. And Israel will be restored as a nation.

Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I agree with the OP; it is the seed of promise God made unto Abraham.
That seed is Christ and through him shall all blessings or cursing be bestowed upon all whom call upon his name.

The land and tribes of Israel are irrelevant to God's promises. He has and is fulfilling them through the seed of Abraham by the blessings to all nations. (Whosoever will )
Gen 22:18 bc Abraham believed God and obeyed him.

I'm not one of those all in for Israel or Jews however I am not anti-Semitic either. This is shaping up for the AC to reveal himself. If those practicing Judiaism are still looking for a physical messiah, @Fullness of the Gentiles do you suppose he will be of Jewish ancestry?

I have heard some say he will come out of the Arab country but the Jews are enemies of them and would not accept such. Furthermore for him to have access to the temple would he not have to be a jew?

I got so tired of hearing certain preachers like John Hagee extol the country Israel, I just had to disconnect.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm not one of those all in for Israel or Jews however I am not anti-Semitic either.

To many followers of Christ (just as @Gabriel_Arch here has already made obvious), if you are not "all in" for Israel or Jews, then you are antisemtic.

He proved my point in his self-exaltation/pride. Too many Christians are obsessed with the Jews.

This is shaping up for the AC to reveal himself. If those practicing Judiaism are still looking for a physical messiah, @Fullness of the Gentiles do you suppose he will be of Jewish ancestry?

I don't suppose anything that is not written, and it's not written what the AC's nationality or ethnic identity will be.

If you read up about what Muslims believe that (the Islamic version of) Antichrist will teach when he comes, then it's talking about Christ, and our Antichrist is their Christ.

But neither Old Testament nor New Testament prophecies say anything about Islam, nor do they mention the ethnic identity or nationality of AC - which is why one group of Christians believe one thing, and another group another thing.​

I have heard some say he will come out of the Arab country but the Jews are enemies of them and would not accept such. Furthermore for him to have access to the temple would he not have to be a jew?

I do not believe that the temple mentioned in 2 Thess 2:4 or Rev 1:1-2 is talking about a physical temple structure in Jerusalem - whether or not the Jews of Israel ever succeed in getting one erected. To me the 3rd Temple = the New Testament Temple, no matter what Jews may call any physical structure they may succeed in erecting in Jerusalem. Here's why.

* The sanctuary|Temple of God can only be defiled if it's the sanctuary of God.

I believe that the idol that Antiochus IV Epiphanes placed in the 2nd temple in Jerusalem is a foreshadow of the man of sin being the idol in the New Testament (3rd) Temple. He will exalt himself to the position of head of the church. I don't believe (like the SDA's believe) that this has happened yet. I just don't have any opinion on what his ethnic or national identity is, because it's not written.​

I got so tired of hearing certain preachers like John Hagee extol the country Israel, I just had to disconnect.

I get tired of that false theology, which is still propagated by many - especially here, in these boards.​

 

[Zao is life]

I agree with the OP; it is the seed of promise God made unto Abraham.
That seed is Christ and through him shall all blessings or cursing be bestowed upon all whom call upon his name.

The land and tribes of Israel are irrelevant to God's promises. He has and is fulfilling them through the seed of Abraham by the blessings to all nations. (Whosoever will )
Gen 22:18 bc Abraham believed God and obeyed him.

Yes:

"And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." -- Genesis 22:18

"And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ." -- Galatians 3:16

"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations through faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all nations be blessed." -- Galatians 3:8.

"For all the land which you see I will give to you, and to your seed forever." -- Genesis 13:15

"And to Abraham and to his Seed the promises were spoken. It does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, "And to your Seed," which is Christ." -- Galatians 3:16

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Your false judgment be on your own head. I don't need to respond in self-defense. Jesus, who knows my heart and my thoughts regarding Jews, and regarding their country, a.k.a Israel, will ask you why you said that in the day you have to give account to Him of all your idle words uttered in your self-righteous and prideful belief that you are able to perceive the thoughts and intents of the heart, just like God can.

Most of the Christian population of the world is so obsessed with the Jews that they either exalt them above all other people, calling all of them God's elect when they are neither believers nor saved, or condemn them above all others as though their sins are somehow greater than the sins of all who have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (such as yourself also - just in case in your self-righteous false accusations which you have already made it clear that you are eager and quick to hurl at others - you have forgotten).

Today many, many Christians are either pronouncing God's blessing upon unbelieving Jews, and condemnation of unbelieving Gentiles who hate them, or siding with the enemies of the Jews and Israel. The obsession with the Jews among Christians which is based on lies and false theology, whether it exalts them above all other people, or condemns them above all other people, needs to stop.

I stand with the Jews and with Israel in their war with Hamas because the God I serve hates what is evil and loves what is good, and so do I.

Welcome to Christianity Board. You are now on my ignore list. I won't see any more of your content, because it's already obvious to me that it will not contribute much of substance. Good luck while you go about sowing discord through your self-exaltation.​

You are clearly mentally troubled. As that post confirms.

I hope God sees your issues and brings you peace.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Romans 11:5

5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.​

Romans chapter 11​

English Standard Version

1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.​

7What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”​

9And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;​

10let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.” 11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!​

13Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.​

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.​

25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;​

27“and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.​

33Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!​

34“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” 35“Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” 36For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.​

 

[Zao is life]

Let's hope God gives the one peace who falsely accuses others and then calls them "mentally troubled", and gives him peace once his troubled mind is healed.

Let's take a careful look again at the scripture the previous poster quoted, which he quoted without even saying why he was reproducing extracts from the Bible that everyone can read in the Bible, instead of in his post.​

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I say then, Did not God put away His people?
Let it not be said! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. -- Romans 11:1
-----------------------------------------------------------------------​

Note: The Covenant of God with Abraham regarding the election of Abraham's seed is everlasting.​

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
2 God did not thrust out His people whom He foreknew.
Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying,
3 "Lord, they killed Your prophets and dug down Your altars, and I am left alone, and they seek my life."

4 But what does the Divine answer say to him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

5 Even so then, also in this present time a remnant according to the election of grace has come into being.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------​

Note: Paul was writing in the 1st century about the remnant who were NOT hardened through their unbelief and were NOT broken off from the Abrahamic Covenant | the Olive tree | Israel, as a result. The remnant ensured the continuation of the elect nation, through the remnant of the naturally born descendants of Abraham.​

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
6 But if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained that which it seeks, but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened.

17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------​

Note: With the exception of the remnant, the unbelieving natural branches or natural descendants of Abraham were broken off from Abraham|Israel, and remain broken off, unless and until they repent of their unbelief, as Paul states below, in verse 23.​

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------​

Note: In verses 17-18 Paul is speaking to the Gentiles who believe in Jesus who are grafted into the Abrahamic Covenant|Israel among the remnant of the natural descendants who believe. Paul has already said that the hardened natural descendants have ALL been broken off from the Abrahamic Covenant, they are no longer part of Israel (the Olive tree), but:​

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
23 And those also, IF they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------​

Only the remnant of the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who believe in Jesus remain in the promise of God to Abraham, i.e remain part of Israel, according to the scripture. Gentiles who believe are grafted in among the remnant,

and this has been an ongoing thing ever since the Deliver came out of Zion removing ungodliness from Jacob, making a new covenant with them when He took away their (and our) sins. It will continue UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

When Jesus returns, there will be no more opportunity for anyone to repent of his unbelief, according to the scriptures, because He will be returning in judgment of all unbelievers, not for the salvation of any. He did that nearly 2,000 years ago when He made a covenant with Israel in the day He took away their and our sins.

Note: According to some, if you interpret the above passage in accordance with what it is saying, then you are "antisemitic" or (even worse) "mentally troubled." - and they will praise Jesus in the churches, and pat themselves on the back for exalting one nation of unbelievers among the nations of the world above all others by calling one nation of unbelievers "God's elect" and all other nations of unbelievers "not elect".

The elect of God is Christ and those who are in Him through faith in Him. Only they inherit the promise made to Abraham. They are Jews and Gentiles. This is what Romans 11 very clearly tells us, before it is corrupted by those who call you "mentally troubled" and/or "antisemitic" if you don't follow their corruption of the scriptures.

A natural descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who does not believe in Jesus remains broken off from any covenant relationship with God. It's a harsh reality, and Paul called it a harsh reality, but a reality it is, nonetheless.​

 

[Zao is life]

Then you set up a fallacy that Jesus has to be the Messiah all over again.

Absolute nonsense. Yet again many (like me) won't even know what you're talking about. You're making no sense (again) - just hurling out arguments for the sake of arguing (again).

Nothing in my OP or anything else I said says anything about what comes after the return of Christ. It's not the subject of this thread. I've stayed away from it, except where I was answering a poster about the promise of the land made to Abraham's seed. And I never made any 'statement' about it, admitting that I don't know how it should all be interpreted, whether some prophecies such as Ezekiel 36-37 are speaking about a millennium Kingdom following the return of Christ, or the NHNE, or even speaking about the current Age where "the land of the fathers" is spiritualized.

You were just throwing out arguments for the sake of arguments in your previous post to me (again), even nonsenical arguments (such as the one above), and this is obvious.

 

[Timtofly]

Absolute nonsense. Yet again many (like me) won't even know what you're talking about. You're making no sense (again) - just hurling out arguments for the sake of arguing (again).

Nothing in my OP or anything else I said says anything about what comes after the return of Christ. It's not the subject of this thread. I've stayed away from it, except where I was answering a poster about the promise of the land made to Abraham's seed. And I never made any 'statement' about it, admitting that I don't know how it should all be interpreted, whether some prophecies such as Ezekiel 36-37 are speaking about a millennium Kingdom following the return of Christ, or the NHNE, or even speaking about the current Age where "the land of the fathers" is spiritualized.

You were just throwing out arguments for the sake of arguments in your previous post to me (again), even nonsenical arguments (such as the one above), and this is obvious.

I did not throw out that argument. You did, when you made the point Jesus was not returning to take sin away.

I never claimed Jesus had to die the second time.

But sin is still in the world, and needs to be removed. That is why the verse has not been fulfilled, even though you claim it cannot be ever fulfilled.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Yes, the Lamb of God took away the sins of the world by the physical act of the Cross.

But sin did not stop at the Cross. Sin has been ongoing nonstop. So your point that sin cannot be taken away, because you declare a theological point that Israel is the church, does not negate the fact that at the Second Coming, Jesus will take away the sin of Israel. Not by a Cross, that was your argument, you threw out just to be argumentative.

God can remove sin just as fast as sin entered the world; just by declaring sin gone.

Seems the subject of this thread is to diss those who don't hold the same theology you do. You seem to want a conversation, but then regret any conversations you do have.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Not when I read this.
It is not easy to fall away. God will hold you hard and long.
But it is possible.
Salvation does not eliminate free will.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I think verse 14 in Hebrews 10 reiterates we can never lose salvation.
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

[Zao is life]

I did not throw out that argument. You did, when you made the point Jesus was not returning to take sin away.

I never claimed Jesus had to die the second time.

Please do not misrepresent what I said in order to win an argument. It makes you a liar and a deceiver.

I said Jesus will not return to die a second time for the sins of the world. I said the Deliver came out of Zion and took away ungodliness from Jacob (the house of Israel and the house of Judah), making a covenant with them (the new covenant) in the day he took away their (and our) sins.

What I said is true.

But sin is still in the world, and needs to be removed.

Sin is still in the world but it has already been removed once for all in the blood of Christ. That's the gospel that has been preached in all the world for the last 2,000 years.

That is why the verse has not been fulfilled, even though you claim it cannot be ever fulfilled.

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

You're confused.

Learn the difference between Jesus taking away our sin once for all 2,000 years ago, and sin still being in the world.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think verse 14 in Hebrews 10 reiterates we can never lose salvation.
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Paul basically said the same thing, He was confident that he who began a good work WILL COMPLETE it until the day of Christ. (Phil 1: 6)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Please do not misrepresent what I said in order to win an argument. It makes you a liar and a deceiver

I said Jesus will not return to die a second time for the sins of the world. I said the Deliver came out of Zion and took away ungodliness from Jacob (the house of Israel and the house of Judah), making a covenant with them (the new covenant) in the day he took away their (and our) sins.

What I said is true.

Sin is still in the world but it has already been removed once for all in the blood of Christ. That's the gospel that has been preached in all the world for the last 2,000 years.

You're confused.

Learn the difference between Jesus taking away our sin once for all 2,000 years ago, and sin still being in the world.

Yet he promised to take away the sin of Jacob, and put them back in their land, where they will not commit their sins anymore.

Thats different than removing the penalty of those sin as he did on the cross

 

[Timtofly]

What I said is true.

The verse does not state that, even if what you say is true. No one is arguing against what Jesus did at the first coming. The verse is declaring what Jesus will do at the Second Coming, after the fulness of the Gentiles is brought in.

The blindness in part is there until the Second Coming. The fulness of the Gentiles stops at the Second Coming. Israel will have her blindness removed and sin removed at the Second Coming. That was Paul's point.