Shalom, dragonfly.
dragonfly said:
Hi Retrobyter,
I think you've said something like this before, but I don't remember replying to this point specifically. So here goes.
Firstly, I am not altering His word at all. I am not adding to scripture, and I am not asking you to believe anything which God Himself has not spoken to you by His Spirit. I fully understand what it is to read the text and see only what is written there, but you must know that God uses what is written as a platform from which to speak.
Here is a striking modern-day example of this. You may know the name David Wilkerson, who founded Times Square Church, NYC? Well, as he got older, he began to seek a younger pastor to continue the work God had called him into. I have no idea how he conducted his search, but one morning, as Carter Conlon was doing his ordinary devotional Bible readings, and he happened to be covering the part where David is explaining how the Lord gave him the instructions for the Temple, but his son would actually bring the work to completion, Carter Conlon understood from the Lord that he would be leaving the church which he was pastoring, and going to join a work of God which had been begun by another man, from whom he would take over.
He was so sure that this is what God had revealed to him, that when he finished his readings, he went to the assistant pastor's study and told him to start preparing to take over, because he was going to be leaving soon. It was not many days before his wife received a call from David Wilkerson, inviting him to preach at TSC, and within about three weeks it was all decided that the Conlons would be moving from Canada to New York.
This is the kind of 'revelation' which happens from time to time for Christians. I have had them myself. In fact, I was reading something completely unrelated to the question I was holding before God, but He still managed to speak to me from the text about a major decision I am making right now. I guess you might find that alarming! But I find it comforting! We walk by faith not by sight. So... what I wrote in the previous post is a rough sketch of a word the Lord gave me as I was reading the last verse in Joshua 17, none of which is possible without both the effect of the cross and the ilumination of the Spirit. I do not expect another person to receive to themselves the same word from that reading, although God is able to give it to them.
Hmm. Does He really? I thought He brought His curse upon the earth to an end with the Flood, and now what we experience by way of 'badness' has more to do with living in fallen bodies in a fallen creation with fallen people who have rejected the Saviour (or at least, not given themselves to Him), and also, through removing ourselves from His protection and blessing which keeps us from harm according to His will for our lives. The prince of the power of the air still has power, which he exercises through those who worship him with their lives - although I do recognise that God 'brings the devices of the people to nought', and this is a great truth to be enjoyed, when the devices of the people are directed at oneself.
MTPockets had a good way of putting this - that those who are still owned by Satan, will suffer his fate with him as long as they are his 'possessions'.
Iow, isn't most of the 'badness' which people experience on the earth, a straightforward result of their not coming under the shelter of His wing?
You're not so difficult to talk to as is daq. You still have some sensibility to what is being said.
Walking by faith does not mean blindly following one's whim or a whimsical thought (revelation). It means to
TRUST GOD,
REGARDLESS the choices we make! Most don't understand these verses this way, but here's some verses I would like to share and share with you this lesson:
Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
KJV
I was taught to memorize these verses early in life, but I really didn't understand them until I was ... oh ... in my thirties or forties, sometime after I had my first lesson from Scripture on how the Will of God is different from His Plan. It wasn't until I had also studied about what is God's "hatred." Let me also pull up those verses:
Malachi 1:2-4
2 "I have loved you," saith the LORD. Yet ye say, "Wherein hast thou loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" saith the LORD: "yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
4 Whereas Edom saith, "We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places"; thus saith the LORD of hosts, "They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, 'The border of wickedness,' and, 'The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.'"
KJV (quotation marks supplied)
Romans 9:9-16
9 For this is the word of promise, "At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son."
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
14 What shall we say then? "Is there unrighteousness with God?" God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
KJV (quotation marks supplied)
As in most things, all God has to do is REMOVE His hand of blessing to curse someone. By taking AWAY His favor and leaving one to the elements of this earth's harshness, He effectively demonstrates His hatred. God's hatred is mostly
INDIFFERENCE! Just as children (and animals) spell "love" as "T-I-M-E" (to quote James Dobson), "hate" is spelled "
N-O T-I-M-E." Without God's blessing on a person, the normal course of decay and the entropy of thermodynamics will do His job for Him!
So, when we read Proverbs 3:5 and 6, pay attention to the pronouns:
5 (You) Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and (you) lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
The point is this: Regardless the plans WE make, HE know the future; we DON'T. All we need do is acknowledge HIM and trust in HIM, and WHATEVER our ways (Hebrew:
d'raakheykhaa - "your roads") - our choices - our plans, HE will DIRECT our actual paths (Hebrew:
orchoteykhaa - "your travels") - our footsteps - the actual direction we go! He puts it in our hearts what we end up loving, whether that be science or cars or construction or computers or sports or the military or whatever, as far as an occupation is concerned. So, He already knows the plans we will make based upon those loves. But, when we make such plans, it's not our place to make those plans inflexibly! We must "write them in pencil" because God MAY CHANGE WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS! All we need do is "AC
KNOWLEDGE" (Hebrew:
daa`eehuw from
yaada` meaning "to know") HIM - GOD and TRUST HIM! Obviously, to "KNOW God" is more than just a casual acquaintance and is not a "we have arrived" kind of thing! It's an ON-GOING learning process!
I've known some teenagers who have asked, "How will I know that the person I've met is the one I should marry?" implying that there is a "Mr. Right" or a "Miss Right" that God has picked out especially for them. They will pray and ask God, "Who do you want me to marry?" And, it's as though God replies, "Well, who do you want to marry?" They'll say back, "No! No! You don't understand! I want to marry who YOU want me to marry!" And God says, "I want you to marry who YOU want to marry and be happy, so who makes you happy?" God doesn't SAY who He knows one will marry! The knowledge about the future is HIS domain, and He doesn't share that information lightly! THE FUTURE IS
NONE OF OUR BUSINESS! Just get to know God better and
TRUST HIM! There are a couple of guidelines that we can share with such seekers like "make sure the other person loves God and is a believer" and "make sure it is a MUTUAL love," but when all is said and done, it doesn't matter WHO we marry as long as we do what is RIGHTEOUS with that other person, which IS His Will for us! This will lead to the conclusion that we should not be looking for a "Mr. Right" or a "Miss Right," because haSatan can deceive such a person into thinking that they've "missed God's choice" for him or her, or "missed God's Perfect Will for their lives!" I've actually known people to divorce the "wrong one" so they could marry "God's choice" instead! But, God's Will doesn't include divorce!
1 Corinthians 7:27
27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
KJV
1 Thessalonians 4:1-7
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
KJV
So, we must be careful with the "revelation" thing. One should not go seeking for a revelation with "Bible roulette." Y'know, setting one's Bible on its spine and letting it fall open to a random location and with blinded eyes, setting one's finger down on a verse!
One guy did this and the first time he opened his Bible, his finger landed on Matthew 27:5:
Matthew 27:5
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
KJV
Wanting some clarification as to what this might mean, he tried again:
Luke 10:37
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
KJV
Oh, and btw, no, the Flood did not end the curse on the earth anymore than it ended the curse on the woman in childbirth. The thorns and thistles are still there; death and decay are still there. People and animals still get old and die. And we must still eat bread from the sweat of our brow. It is not until Revelation 21 that the curse is finally lifted.
Shalom, daq.
daq said:
There is a good lesson in this dragonfly. Retrobyter wants everyone to completely ignore the very definition of the word which he himself has quoted and rather pick a "more appropriate word" for the moment, in the midst of a debate without thinking it through, and insert that word instead of following the grammatical rules even laid out in the very definition which itself clearly states:
Quote]OT:7451 ra` (rah); from OT:7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):[End quote.
Whether speaking of "creating" or "cutting down" the passage speaks of a moral object which is a noun:
adversity = adjective = bad
affliction = adjective = bad
calamity = adjective = bad
displeasure = adjective = bad
distress = adjective = bad
Egyptian sun god of the same name = personage/entity/noun = evil
evil man = noun = evil
evil thing = noun = evil
evil beast = noun = evil
evil tree = noun = evil
When Retrobyter states that God creates "badness" his statement is patently false because whether he knows it or not what is being stated is that God creates a moral-object-noun if indeed the word bara' means "to create" in this context as he suggests. And, in fact, whether it means "to create" or "to cut down" it speaks in terms of a moral object which is a noun either way. In addition to this Retrobyter has now completely ignored the statement from 1 Corinthians 15:47 KJV which he himself just quoted in the other thread:
1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Since "the first Adam" was formed out from the dust of the earth, ('adamah) we know to which Adam this refers:
Genesis 2:4-7 KJV
4. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5. And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The Scripture is clear that this Adam was yatsar-formed BEFORE there was any plant or herb in the earth. The same cannot be said of the Adam which is bara'-cut down in the first chapter of Genesis because the plants, herbs, and fruit trees were all brought forth from the earth in the third yom and that Adam was bara'-cut down in the sixth yom. Since every living soul was theoretically in the loins of the first Adam then all mankind was technically "in the first Adam" when he fell, ("For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive"). This implies that no one man could ever have been considered "the Second Adam" because all mankind is technically included in the first Adam. Therefore only Yeshua the Son of man can be "the Second Adam" of which Paul speaks in the above passage. Here then is the problem which Retrobyter has not addressed or failed to comprehend: IF indeed Yeshua the Lamb of God having been slain from the foundation of the world is "the Second Adam" of Genesis 1:26-27 then it is he first which was given dominion over all the earth and then all those in him whether male or female, ("I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing"). Thus all things were indeed made dia-through him from the foundation of the world and then even the first man Adam was "revitalized" through the Spirit of the Second Adam given after Adam and Eve had fallen by the transgression. Retrobyter is unwittingly stating that Yeshua was bara'-created when he demands that bara' means what he claims that it means.
I HARDLY want everyone to ignore completely the definition! The problem is obviously making God the Source of evil in the sense of moral evil or sin. You've chose to alter the verb; I've chosen to alter the direct object. You've changed "to create" to "to cut down"; I've changed "evil" to "badness." (Leave the "Egyptian sun god" out of this; we don't KNOW that there's a connection!)
The Hebrew word "
ra`" is NOT always a "moral object noun!" You weren't paying attention to your own quotation! The two connectives in the definition you provided are "OR," not "AND!"
Being an old-style computer programmer with computer engineering training, I WELL understand the difference!
"OR" is a circuit with switches in parallel controlling a light. Throwing either switch to the "on" position (or both) will result in a completed circuit, making the light come on.
"AND" is a circuit with switches in series controlling a light. BOTH switches MUST be switched to the "on" position for the circuit to be completed; only then will the light come on.
Now, look at Strong's definition for baaraa':
OT:1254 baaraa' (baw-raw'); a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): -choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
The word
baaraa' is a primitive root that "ABSOLUTELY" means "to create," and it must be "QUALIFIED" to mean "to cut down (a wood)," or "select," or "feed" as "FORMATIVE processes!" They're not definitions meaning to tear something down; they are definitions that FORM something! POSITIVE, NOT NEGATIVE!
I'M "completely ignoring 1 Cor. 15:45-47"?! Are you even paying attention to yourself?!
You said, "The Scripture is clear that this Adam was
yatsar-formed BEFORE there was any plant or herb in the earth. The same cannot be said of the Adam which is
bara'-cut down in the first chapter of Genesis because the plants, herbs, and fruit trees were all brought forth from the earth in the
third yom and that Adam was
bara'-cut down in the
sixth yom." One doesn't NEED to see Yeshua` as the SECOND Adam, by the way, in Genesis 1 and 2 because...
John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
KJV
John 17:24
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
KJV
1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
KJV
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV
mo (Solomon) and the construction of the first Temple.
