No continuing city?

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

Getting back to the original post, we should simply understand that "no continuing (Greek: menousan) city" means "no permanent city," and the key idea is in the contrast between the words "HERE" and "WE SEEK ONE TO COME!" The word translated "we seek" is from the Greek word "epizeetoumen" meaning "we CRAVE" the one to come! Thus, the verse implies TIME as well as POSITION. This "permanent city" is what Avraham was seeking but will not be experienced fully until the New Jerusalem AFTER the Fire and the New Earth with its New Atmosphere has been created/renovated.

Even the city of Jerusalem during the Millennium (the 1000 years when haSatan is chained) is not a "continuing city." We await the one that is being built by our Master Yeshua`.

Oh. So, by the way, no, it doesn't make any difference who wrote Hebrews.

I just wondered whether others have ideas about who wrote Hebrews.

Regarding 'the one being built by our Master Yeshua', I see that as a current undertaking on His part, which at some 'time' in the future, will be completed.

 

[veteran]

Hi Retrobyter,


I just wondered whether others have ideas about who wrote Hebrews.

Regarding 'the one being built by our Master Yeshua', I see that as a current undertaking on His part, which at some 'time' in the future, will be completed.

Why, would it make it any more or any less important to us Gentile believers on Christ Jesus?

There's some very, very deep matters discussed in Hebrews for those who have done their Old Testament Book study, and I'm not talking about any of the tabernacle stuff or law.

 

[dragonfly]

Why, would it make it any more or any less important to us Gentile believers on Christ Jesus?

There's some very, very deep matters discussed in Hebrews for those who have done their Old Testament Book study, and I'm not talking about any of the tabernacle stuff or law.

I am not sure what gives you the idea I have suggested there is a difference (between believers of different ethnicities). ?

Maybe I'm not very forthcoming with my thoughts because I am weary of all the different doctrines that make a difference, and I do not want to argue with anyone; likewise, I don't want to tell anyone else how to understand what I understand, because God is well able to lead those who are serious about understanding God's word for themselves. And, if we have the Holy Spirit, He can only witness to Truth, and we need to be guided by that, no matter what we think otherwise from our own ideas or faulty teaching.

My experience of His speaking, is that with a single word (sometimes) He can connect disparate references into one meaningful, comprehensible theme (or cohesive whole), which moves everything around those references into a new light. I am well aware that we all bring our own baggage to these discussions, and God is the only one who knows where we picked up some of our strange ideas about what to believe; likewise, He is the only one who knows how to deconstruct our strange ideas while keeping us from major harm through sudden disillusionment and confusion - as we genuinely looking to Him for our answers.

Would you like to say more about 'some very, very deep matters discussed in Hebrews'?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

I am not sure what gives you the idea I have suggested there is a difference (between believers of different ethnicities). ?

Maybe I'm not very forthcoming with my thoughts because I am weary of all the different doctrines that make a difference, and I do not want to argue with anyone; likewise, I don't want to tell anyone else how to understand what I understand, because God is well able to lead those who are serious about understanding God's word for themselves. And, if we have the Holy Spirit, He can only witness to Truth, and we need to be guided by that, no matter what we think otherwise from our own ideas or faulty teaching.

My experience of His speaking, is that with a single word (sometimes) He can connect disparate references into one meaningful, comprehensible theme (or cohesive whole), which moves everything around those references into a new light. I am well aware that we all bring our own baggage to these discussions, and God is the only one who knows where we picked up some of our strange ideas about what to believe; likewise, He is the only one who knows how to deconstruct our strange ideas while keeping us from major harm through sudden disillusionment and confusion - as we genuinely looking to Him for our answers.

Would you like to say more about 'some very, very deep matters discussed in Hebrews'?

There ARE deep matters discussed in Hebrews; however, don't think of them as "deep" as daq would suggest! They are deep in a normative, logical progression of the theme of the book! PLEASE don't go crazy with your "deepness"; it's not necessary! In fact, it's self deceptive and misleading to others.

As Charles "Tremendous" Jones would say, "SIBKIS! See It Big, Keep It Simple!"

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

It was veteran who posted the 'deep' comment, and I am not sure what he had in mind, as I know Hebrews pretty well. To me, these are, as you imply, the normal things a Christian should know, and perhaps the 'deep'ness of Hebrews is a relative term, more relevant to those who are not steeped in the written word.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hi Retrobyter,

It was veteran who posted the 'deep' comment, and I am not sure what he had in mind, as I know Hebrews pretty well. To me, these are, as you imply, the normal things a Christian should know, and perhaps the 'deep'ness of Hebrews is a relative term, more relevant to those who are not steeped in the written word.

Okay, I'm good with that. It's true that some things that are TRULY deep in the sense of how important they are to the message of God's justification of people may be missed for the desire to concoct "deeper" meanings that aren't really there, but as long as Hebrews is understood to show how that Yeshua` became a High Priest forever after the order of Malkiy-Tsedeq on our behalf, such an understanding of Hebrews is a good place to start.

 

[veteran]

Explain this:

Heb 12:26
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(KJV)

How many times is that shaking of the earth point to?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, veteran.

Explain this:

Heb 12:26
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(KJV)

How many times is that shaking of the earth point to?

Are you talking to me or to dragonfly or ...? I don't feel like stepping in where I'm not needed.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

How many times is that shaking of the earth point to?

(Hi RB your post went up as I was starting this one.)


Does it matter how many times, as long as we know there is to be one more time which might affect us?

Which previous shakings qualify to be counted? Earthquakes mentioned in scripture? Or is the writer referring to a more radical shaking than that?

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,


(Hi RB your post went up as I was starting this one.)


Does it matter how many times, as long as we know there is to be one more time which might affect us?

Which previous shakings qualify to be counted? Earthquakes mentioned in scripture? Or is the writer referring to a more radical shaking than that?

Hey Dragonfly,


What level of shaking is being referred to here in bold?...

Heb.12:27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(KJV)


Some relevant Scriptures...

Ps 102:25-28
25 Of old hast Thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of Thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt Thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But Thou art the same, and Thy years shall have no end.
28 The children of Thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before Thee.
(KJV)

Matt 24:35
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
(KJV)

Isa 51:6
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but My salvation shall be for ever, and My righteousness shall not be abolished.
(KJV)

Isa 65:17
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
(KJV)

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

First you asked 'how many times?' and now you are asking 'what level of shaking?' Clearly if the heavens and the earth are going to be so different that we can't even remember the ones we knew, then it is a major 'shaking' the likes of which mankind has never experienced hitherto.

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

First you asked 'how many times?' and now you are asking 'what level of shaking?' Clearly if the heavens and the earth are going to be so different that we can't even remember the ones we knew, then it is a major 'shaking' the likes of which mankind has never experienced hitherto.

Right, now consider going back to the Heb.12:25-27 verses about the "Yet once more" idea and apply it according to that "Yet once more" part...
Heb 12:25-27
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(KJV)



Here's where the OT quote was from...


Hag 2:6
6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; "Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
(KJV)

Hebrew for "Yet once" where Hebrew owd (Yet) means repeatedly, again, etc., and "once" is Hebrew 'echad as an ordinal first. Thus the Greek properly translates to "Yet once more" in Heb.12:27.

It makes sense to apply "Yet once more" to the various destructions and earthquakes of history per God's Word. But we can't apply this particular 'level' of shaking of the earth to any other times except the future, ... or can we?

Jer 4:23-28
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it."
(KJV)

That level of shaking of the earth there is also of the type and level Hebrews 12 mentions, minus the intent of the future one. The future shaking of the heavens and the earth is so as to end man's works off this earth and bring in Christ's de facto reign here on earth with His return. That one of Jer.4 didn't go that far, but left the earth in a state of mourning, in a desolate state, God not having made a full end of that previous time.

If you choose not to believe this Scripture connection with that subject of the Heb.12:25-29 verses, that's OK. But this is an example of how deep several things go within the Book of Hebrews and is why the Gentile believer should not discard it.