No continuing city?

[daq]

So far we have:

1) Lukos-Gamaliel the beloved Doctor of the Law, ("Lukos the White").
2) Sha'ul-Saulos-Paulos-Petros, ("Paulos the Little").
3) Simonos-BarYonah-Petros-Petra-Paulos, ("Simon Peter")

So everyone here agrees on the same author? :lol:

 

[Trumpeter]

So far we have:

1) Lukos-Gamaliel the beloved Doctor of the Law, ("Lukos the White").
2) Sha'ul-Saulos-Paulos-Petros, ("Paulos the Little").
3) Simonos-BarYonah-Petros-Petra-Paulos, ("Simon Peter")

So everyone here agrees on the same author? :lol:

3 men..... 1 author........The Holy Spirit......... Let's always remember to always keep our eyes on the Prize.


Hbr 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of [our] faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

Thanks for the link. I will peruse it with interest.



Hi daq,

Point taken about Hebrews 9:15 in the Romans 11 thread. It might be too big a leap right now.



Trumpeter,

Your emphasis on the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is most welcome.



Hi Episkopos,

I used to think Peter, but it seems far removed from his comfort zone, and there is that bit about being in prison, and Timothy, which kinda point away from Peter.

 

[daq]

3 men..... 1 author........The Holy Spirit.........

Yes of course but that truth is already a given. "Sometimes, well-meaning individuals get so "out-there" with their theories, that their ropes attached to their moorings and anchors are stretched beyond the breaking point and they fly off to La-la-land!" So I suppose my ropes and moorings got stretched too far outside the box once again! Perhaps I should discontinue thinking out loud but I was speaking more along the following "mooring" lines.

John 21:14-17
14. This is now the third time that Yeshua showed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
15. So when they had dined, Yeshua says to Simoni Petro, "Simon, Yoannou, do you agapao-love me more than these?" He says unto him, Yea, Master; you know that I phileo-love thee. He says unto him:

"Bosko-Pasture my arnion-lambkins!" [Newborns of the Uncircumcision?]

16. And says to him again a second time, "Simon, Yoannou, do you agapao-love me?" He says unto him, Yea, Master; you know that I phileo-love thee. He says unto him:

"Poimaino-Shepherd my probaton-sheep!" [Newborns of the Circumcision?]

17. And says unto him the third time, "Simon, Yoannou, do you phileo-love me?" Petros then was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "Do you phileo-love me?" And he said unto him, Master, you know all things; you know that I phileo-love thee. Yeshua says unto him:

"Bosko-Pasture my probaton-sheep!" [One Sheepfold?]

Acts 15:7 KJV
7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Perhaps there be some that shall arrive at the pearly gates, (I speak foolishly with my moorings loosed) expecting to find Peter standing before the Door because they do not accept the teachings of Paul. And yet perhaps there be likewise many more that shall arrive at the pearly gates expecting to be greeted by Paul because they say the message of Peter was only for "the Circumcision" and therefore does not concern themselves, (the same do the same with the doctrines of James without naming names in a time saving rhyme! :lol: ). But what if the twain anthropon man-faced Petros-Paulos are simply two different countenances of the one and same andres-man in Messiah? How devastating it would be to arrive at the pearly gates, expecting to be greeted by the one and suddenly be met by the other which was rejected and neglected! Oh my! So much for that kingdom in the sky! Therefore I simply eat of the grass wheresoever the Master has brought me to rest in any particular given day. h34r:

Petros; Tarry in the inner court and Shepherd my probaton-sheep!​

Yochanan; Thrust out the outer court and measure it not: for it is given to the Gentiles!​

Paulos; Go out into the outer court and bring them in that their hearts may be circumcised!​

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Revelation 11:1-2
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The Dome of the Rock Mosque is located now in the outer court area of the tribulation temple.

 

[dragonfly]

Yes of course but that truth is already a given. "Sometimes, well-meaning individuals get so "out-there" with their theories, that their ropes attached to their moorings and anchors are stretched beyond the breaking point and they fly off to La-la-land!" So I suppose my ropes and moorings got stretched too far outside the box once again! Perhaps I should discontinue thinking out loud but I was speaking more along the following "mooring" lines.

John 21:14-17
14. This is now the third time that Yeshua showed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
15. So when they had dined, Yeshua says to Simoni Petro, "Simon, Yoannou, do you agapao-love me more than these?" He says unto him, Yea, Master; you know that I phileo-love thee. He says unto him:

"Bosko-Pasture my arnion-lambkins!" [Newborns of the Uncircumcision?]

16. And says to him again a second time, "Simon, Yoannou, do you agapao-love me?" He says unto him, Yea, Master; you know that I phileo-love thee. He says unto him:

"Poimaino-Shepherd my probaton-sheep!" [Newborns of the Circumcision?]

17. And says unto him the third time, "Simon, Yoannou, do you phileo-love me?" Petros then was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "Do you phileo-love me?" And he said unto him, Master, you know all things; you know that I phileo-love thee. Yeshua says unto him:

"Bosko-Pasture my probaton-sheep!" [One Sheepfold?]

Acts 15:7 KJV
7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Perhaps there be some that shall arrive at the pearly gates, (I speak foolishly with my moorings loosed) expecting to find Peter standing before the Door because they do not accept the teachings of Paul. And yet perhaps there be likewise many more that shall arrive at the pearly gates expecting to be greeted by Paul because they say the message of Peter was only for "the Circumcision" and therefore does not concern themselves, (the same do the same with the doctrines of James without naming names in a time saving rhyme! :lol: ). But what if the twain anthropon man-faced Petros-Paulos are simply two different countenances of the one and same andres-man in Messiah? How devastating it would be to arrive at the pearly gates, expecting to be greeted by the one and suddenly be met by the other which was rejected and neglected! Oh my! So much for that kingdom in the sky! Therefore I simply eat of the grass wheresoever the Master has brought me to rest in any particular given day. h34r:

Petros; Tarry in the inner court and Shepherd my probaton-sheep!​

Yochanan; Thrust out the outer court and measure it not: for it is given to the Gentiles!​

Paulos; Go out into the outer court and bring them in that their hearts may be circumcised!​

Hmm, daq. This, indeed, is pasture for today. Thanks for drawing us into your corner of the field. 'My sheep hear my voice'.

 

[Trumpeter]

Yes of course but that truth is already a given. "Sometimes, well-meaning individuals get so "out-there" with their theories, that their ropes attached to their moorings and anchors are stretched beyond the breaking point and they fly off to La-la-land!" So I suppose my ropes and moorings got stretched too far outside the box once again! Perhaps I should discontinue thinking out loud but I was speaking more along the following "mooring" lines.

John 21:14-17
14. This is now the third time that Yeshua showed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.
15. So when they had dined, Yeshua says to Simoni Petro, "Simon, Yoannou, do you agapao-love me more than these?" He says unto him, Yea, Master; you know that I phileo-love thee. He says unto him:

"Bosko-Pasture my arnion-lambkins!" [Newborns of the Uncircumcision?]

16. And says to him again a second time, "Simon, Yoannou, do you agapao-love me?" He says unto him, Yea, Master; you know that I phileo-love thee. He says unto him:

"Poimaino-Shepherd my probaton-sheep!" [Newborns of the Circumcision?]

17. And says unto him the third time, "Simon, Yoannou, do you phileo-love me?" Petros then was grieved because he said unto him the third time, "Do you phileo-love me?" And he said unto him, Master, you know all things; you know that I phileo-love thee. Yeshua says unto him:

"Bosko-Pasture my probaton-sheep!" [One Sheepfold?]

Acts 15:7 KJV
7. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Perhaps there be some that shall arrive at the pearly gates, (I speak foolishly with my moorings loosed) expecting to find Peter standing before the Door because they do not accept the teachings of Paul. And yet perhaps there be likewise many more that shall arrive at the pearly gates expecting to be greeted by Paul because they say the message of Peter was only for "the Circumcision" and therefore does not concern themselves, (the same do the same with the doctrines of James without naming names in a time saving rhyme! :lol: ). But what if the twain anthropon man-faced Petros-Paulos are simply two different countenances of the one and same andres-man in Messiah? How devastating it would be to arrive at the pearly gates, expecting to be greeted by the one and suddenly be met by the other which was rejected and neglected! Oh my! So much for that kingdom in the sky! Therefore I simply eat of the grass wheresoever the Master has brought me to rest in any particular given day. h34r:

Petros; Tarry in the inner court and Shepherd my probaton-sheep!​

Yochanan; Thrust out the outer court and measure it not: for it is given to the Gentiles!​

Paulos; Go out into the outer court and bring them in that their hearts may be circumcised!​

Greetings daq,

Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

God bless.

 

[daq]

Hmm, daq. This, indeed, is pasture for today. Thanks for drawing us into your corner of the field. 'My sheep hear my voice'.

You're certainly welcome but it really isn't just my corner of the field to be sure!

Greetings daq,

Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

God bless.

Perhaps you might remember this, Trumpeter, from "The Coming Jewish Revival" (Post#7)

Every man entering into Yeshua Faith has four faces, (for the countenance of the Lion of Yehuda is the face of a young lion) and the man is like a great city which shall be divided into three parts. Two parts of the man-faced shall be cut off and die:

Matthew 26:30-31 KJV
30. And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
31. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Zechariah 13:7-9 KJV
7. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Every man is like a parcel of land and two parts therein shall be cut off and die; and the Most High will bring the third part of the man through the fire, refining him as silver is refined, and trying him as pure gold is tried in the fire; and the third part of the man shall be of the people of YHWH Elohim. Now therefore, (O ye cherubim) which of the "three rocks" is the genuine Simon?

Simonos Simonos Petros - Simon Simon Peter-Rock (Mattityahu 16:23, Lukas 22:31)
Simonos bar-Iona - Simon son of Yonah-Jonah - Simon Petros-Rock (Mattityahu 16:18)
Simonos huios Ioannou - Simon son of Yochanan-John - Simon Kephas-Rock (Yochanan 1:42, Galatians 2:9)

Revelation 3:12-13 KJV
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Ezekiel 41:18-21 KJV
18. And it was made with Cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub; and every cherub had two faces;
19. So that the face of a man was toward the palm tree on the one side, and the face of a young lion toward the palm tree on the other side: it was made through all the house round about.

And of what materials are the twain Cherubim inside the Oracle Holy Holies made from? The answer would be Olive Tree, (1 Kings 6:23, Jeremiah 11, Romans 11) and then the Cherubim were hammered-overlaid with pure gold having been tried in the fire, (1 Kings 6:28, Revelation 3:18). So which one is the elect Simonos Petros? He is the one you have quoted herein above: Simonos Bar-Yonah the "son" of Jonah the prophet from Matthew 16:17-18, for in the same passage one of the "other" Simoni is called the Satan:

Matthew 16:17-23 KJV
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21. From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men [the anthropon-man-faced].

See there is more than one Simon to the Simon Peter ~

Luke 22:31-34 KJV
31. And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
33. And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
34. And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

And the "old man" of Simon Peter savors only the worldly things of the flesh which are of man.
Therefore part your soul asunder and cut off the old man nature or he will surely slay you in the End.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.

What are you talking about? It seems you are willing to make things up to support your own conclusions:

Galatians 4:26 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
26. He de ano Ierousalem eleuthera estin, hetis estin meter {*}hemon,

Galatians 4:26 LIT (Literal Bible with Strong's Vertical Ref.#s)
26.
|3588| the
|1161| But
|0507| above
|2419| Jerusalem
|1658| free
|2076| is,
|3748| who
|2076| is
|3384| mother
|2257| of us.

Original Strong's Ref. #507
Romanized ano
Pronounced an'-o
adverb from GSN0473; upward or on the top:
KJV--above, brim, high, up.

"Jerusalem of above" is not "an unfortunate word used for translation of anoo" but rather exactly what the text states.

John 8:21-23 KJV
21. Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: [GSN#507 ano] ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Anothen comes from ano and means exactly "from above" as employed in the famous John 3 passage:

John 3:3 LIT
3.
|0611| answered
|2424| Jesus
|2532| and
|2036| said
|0846| to him,
|0281| Truly,
|0281| truly,
|3004| I say
|4671| to you,
|3362| Except
|5100| one
|1080| receive birth
|0509| from above,
|3756| not
|1410| he is able
|1492| to see
|3588| the
|0932| kingdom
|3588| of
|2316| God!

Original Strong's Ref. #509
Romanized anothen
Pronounced an'-o-then
from GSN0507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:
KJV--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

Shall we now alter the theological foundation of what it means to be "born from above" so as to suit your theories?
The Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of prophecy!
. . .

Granted, I was feeling tired and skipped a few steps. I was talking about the prepositions:

NT:507 anoo (an'-o); adverb from NT:473; upward or on the top:
KJV - above, brim, high, up.

NT:473 anti (an-tee'); a primary particle; opposite, i.e. instead or because of (rarely in addition to):
KJV - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, substitution, correspondence, etc.

NT:303 ana (an-ah'); a primary preposition and adverb; properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.):
KJV - and, apiece, by, each, every (man), in, through. In compounds (as a prefix) it often means (by implication) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.

NT:1909 epi (ep-ee'); a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the det.) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:
KJV - about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, [wherefore-]), in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-) on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

View attachment 151

In hindsight, I believe that we may have found an error in Strong's Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. "Anoo" is more likely to be an adverb from "ana" (NT:303) instead of from "anti" (NT:473), just as "katoo" is an adverb derived from "kata." That would make better sense.


NT:2736 katoo (kat'-o); also (compare) katooteroo (kat-o-ter'-o); [compare NT:2737]; adverb from NT:2596; downwards:
KJV - beneath, bottom, down, under.

NT:2596 kata (kat-ah'); a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive case, dative case or accusative case] with which it is joined):
KJV - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [daily-], down, every, (+far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from ... to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), ... by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, I apologize for bringing "anoo" to question. You were right about that word; I was wrong. I trusted too heavily on Strong's and should have researched it better.

 

[daq]

While I appreciate and thank you for your honest and sincere apology Retrobyter the fact remains that the Spirit and the Flesh are "anti" or oppositional forces and concepts because the one is always attempting to subvert and take the place of the other. Unfortunately, for man, the physical is generally allowed to win because the natural man can easily see, hear, feel, touch, and taste such things with his eyes, ears, hands, mouth, and mind of the flesh. Thus even "anti" is correct when digging deeper into the language. However, since this is the final post for this page I will attempt to finish it out in the context of this thread and what things I have presented thus far:

Numbers 7:89
89. And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that was upon the ark of testimony, from between the twain Cherubim: and he spake unto him.

1 Samuel 4:4
4. So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark of the covenant of the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth between the Cherubim: and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God.

Psalms 80:1
1. Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, [the Father is Shepherd #1] thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the Cherubim, shine forth.

Psalms 99:1
1. The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble: he dwelleth between the Cherubim; let the earth be moved.

The first Covenant is manifested in worldly types, shadows, ordinances, a worldly Tabernacle, (a worldly Temple beginning under king Solomon) with worldly vessels and instruments. The secondary Covenant is manifested in the supernal, from above, and comes only by the understanding of the worldly types and shadows of the primary-first Covenant. The mercy seat over-atop the Ark of the Covenant was, and is, the throne of God. Likewise the mercy seat "throne of mercy" is now also, with the blood of the Lamb having been sprinkled upon it, the throne of the grace of God, ("Because Torah through Moses was given; the grace and the truth through Yeshua Christou came into being", John 1:17).

Hebrews 9:1-5
1. Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4. Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5. And over it the Cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Hebrews 4:1-3
1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

This Gospel was likewise preached unto the children of Israel also but it was not mixed with faith. There is a "rest-repose" that is to one day be attained in our walk in Messiah, an ultimate and final outcome; a good and "expected End", (Jeremiah 29:10-11 KJV). The author of Hebrews therefore says, paraphrased, let us fear lest we come up short of that rest in Messiah. To simply "name it and proclaim it" is not enough because it must occur from the inside out. We which have believed, (past tense) do enter into that rest, (future tense). There remains therefore a certain rest-repose unto the people of God which we must labor to enter into:

Hebrews 4:9-11
9. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:14-16
14. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Yeshua the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Here above we have mention of "the throne of grace" and what comes likewise with it in this passage? We approach the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy according to the author. The throne of grace is therefore the same mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant of God because the mercy seat is the throne of mercy. However, this obviously speaks not concerning the worldly but concerning the supernal counterpart meanings. Likewise the supernal Ark remains in its place in the supernal Holy Holies or Holiest Place. No man can approach it if the same refuse to properly prepare in advance for the occasion. Thus for one to enter into this place of rest he must be endued with the proper supernal attire which is commanded in the Word. The first and foremost portion of this clothing is a robe having been washed leukos-white in the blood of the Lamb, (the leukanan-white of Revelation 7:14) and the conscience is a garment. The priest shall have no "wool" in his garment because wool is itchy, irritating, and can cause one to "sweat" in the Presence of God. Thus wool is likened to sin in a similar analogy to leaven. Wool is to linen what leaven is to bread, (all of these analogies and allegories are in the Scripture and not my own fanciful machinations).

Hebrews 10:15-22
15. Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Yeshua,
20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21. And having an high priest over the house of God;
22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 12:1-2
1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2. Looking unto Yeshua the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The blood of Messiah was sprinkled upon the mercy seat and throne of God which is now also, because of that precious blood, the throne of grace. Yeshua was therefore literally seated at the right hand of God in the throne of mercy and grace; the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant between the Cherubim. Likewise now this has transformed the lid of the Ark into an altar which those who serve in literal sanctuaries, tabernacles, and temples have no right to eat from. This was the case from Moses to Messiah because the mercy seat was not an "altar" until the soul of Messiah was offered up at Golgotha-Moriah Olivet Zeytiym and poured out unto death. We partake of his body and blood, (which are "food and drink indeed" as he says) in the new supernal Way instituted at the final Pesach-Seder-Supper and therefore the Ark in typology is now the Altar at which we both serve and partake in the heavenly Kingdom of God.

Hebrews 13:10-14
10. We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11. For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12. Wherefore Yeshua also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14. For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one [which is about] to come.

The holy city is the Tent-Tabernacle of God, (2 Corinthians 5:1-5, Revelation 21:3, Re: Temples - Post#22) and comes down from heaven to each in his or her appointed times, (and a true son tested by fire is born into the kingdom neither male nor female).

Matthew 18:18-20
20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Why does he say this? (O ye Cherubim!). Therefore purchase from the Master that fine gold of Uphaz having been tried in the fire; for our God is a consuming fire, (Hebrews 12:28-29) and the covering Cherub which currently resides with you shall come to his end, having been burned to the ground, for that one is the flesh and of the mind of the flesh, (Ezekiel 28:13-18). :huh:

 

[dragonfly]

Hi daq,

I very much like how you explained the relevance of the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, and your focus on the throne of grace. I've heard a lot of preaching about both Covenants, but never quite in the way you chose to pitch it in your post, keeping your eye on the city to come.

 

[ENOCH2010]

daq I ask again do you believe Jesus the Christ is coming back to Earth with his resurrected body to rule and reign as King of Kings for ever.

 

[daq]

daq I ask again do you believe Jesus the Christ is coming back to Earth with his resurrected body to rule and reign as King of Kings for ever.

If you want an adequate answer perhaps you will need to start another thread, (so as not to derail this one). Perhaps you, (and any others who see things according to your perspective) should open a new thread and lay out all of your Scripture passages which support your case. Likewise please include all of your definitions of the terms which you employ in your statements. For instance what exactly do you mean by "resurrected body" when you speak of Messiah returning? Do you mean resurrected immortal flesh? Likewise there are many other terms and definitions which need to be well defined before one can adequately respond to your question. However, in the case of this thread, (which appears to be focused on the Epistle to the Hebrews) my response is thus:

Hebrews 9:24-28 KJV
24. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Otherwise you could simply heed Torah and the interpretations of it through the statements and commandments of Yeshua; then you would not even need to ask me the question that you have posed here, "For Messiah our Passover is sacrificed for us."

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

...

Hi Retrobyter,

Having not followed other of your arguments (except when I'm interested in a thread where you are posting), I don't have quite as clear an idea as daq seems to have, about the length and breadth of how you interpret scripture; but I do keep coming up against your fixation with the earthly, and your regular denigration of the invisible spiritual truth which the earthly was created to expound. Romans 1:20 (and 19)

In your last post in this thread, there is very little difference between your explanation of the 'continuing city', and daq's, except that you tend to preface your expostion with a negative statement, as if you really don't see that creation displays the invisible things of God all the time.


As far as getting people to look up, and remain seated with Christ in heavenly places, it most certainly is about the contrast. Far too many so-called believers have fallen for false doctrine based on faulty reading of scriptures. The permanence we can expect is not in this life, in fleshly terms.

Well, the truth is that Daq doesn't have that great of a handle on what I believe, either. He THINKS he does, but that's as far as it goes. You fail to understand that it is not a battle between the spirit and the flesh. It's a battle between the WORKS of the spirit and the WORKS of the flesh. Daq has this misunderstanding, as well. To the contrary, God is working in us to rectify the discrepancy. It's not to be either the spirit or the flesh; they are to be in SYNC with each other! They are to be ON THE SAME PAGE! The problem is not the flesh; the challenge is trusting in the flesh ALONE!

The example is the natural earth:


Romans 8:1-39
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after (kata = according to) the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
KJV

Note: He did not condemn the flesh; He condemned SIN IN the flesh (vs. 3)! The whole Creation groans for the re-creation of the New Heaven (Sky) and the New Earth! In the same way, we groan for the adoption, that is the REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES, when the physical becomes as clean as the spirit already is!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

You fail to understand that it is not a battle between the spirit and the flesh. It's a battle between the WORKS of the spirit and the WORKS of the flesh.

This (in bold) is an interesting statement indeed, for since when has the Spirit been able to 'work' anything, without the co-operation of the body?

The flesh as we have it now is to be the servant of the Spirit, in order that the spirit and soul of the man be saved through the fire of physical death, ready to be clothed upon with immortality and incorruption. The 'flesh' as we know it, is doomed to destruction for the purpose of being raised in a new body.

I'm not sure if your reference to 'the works of the flesh' is linked in your thinking to Paul's definition in Galatians 5, but if it is, then there is no room whatever for those 'works of the flesh' in the Christian life. Do you agree?

The other kind of 'works of the flesh' - the keeping of an outward religion by the following of rituals and rules - is also condemned by Paul as a 'going about to establish' one's 'own righteousness', rather than receiving Christ's righteousness through faith.

These also have to be buried with Christ in the present tense, so that the new inner life in the Spirit is being lived out through the same 'old' body, until it really does fall into the grave and dies, literally. Until we get our resurrected 'flesh' our life cannot be based on 'the flesh' we've got. It has to be based on our knowledge of God through the Spirit and our active obedience to His commands, guidance, leadings and promptings, which usually will militate against our 'flesh', because God knows that's good for our souls.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, dragonfly.

Hi Retrobyter,


This (in bold) is an interesting statement indeed, for since when has the Spirit been able to 'work' anything, without the co-operation of the body?

The flesh as we have it now is to be the servant of the Spirit, in order that the spirit and soul of the man be saved through the fire of physical death, ready to be clothed upon with immortality and incorruption. The 'flesh' as we know it, is doomed to destruction for the purpose of being raised in a new body.

I'm not sure if your reference to 'the works of the flesh' is linked in your thinking to Paul's definition in Galatians 5, but if it is, then there is no room whatever for those 'works of the flesh' in the Christian life. Do you agree?

The other kind of 'works of the flesh' - the keeping of an outward religion by the following of rituals and rules - is also condemned by Paul as a 'going about to establish' one's 'own righteousness', rather than receiving Christ's righteousness through faith.

These also have to be buried with Christ in the present tense, so that the new inner life in the Spirit is being lived out through the same 'old' body, until it really does fall into the grave and dies, literally. Until we get our resurrected 'flesh' our life cannot be based on 'the flesh' we've got. It has to be based on our knowledge of God through the Spirit and our active obedience to His commands, guidance, leadings and promptings, which usually will militate against our 'flesh', because God knows that's good for our souls.

Perhaps the "works of the Spirit" is not exactly a correct way to say it, but have you never read Galatians 3:1-8ff?


Galatians 3:1-8
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
KJV

And, recall what Ya`aqov (James) said:


James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV


In any case, I'm not talking about the works that WE do but rather the work that GOD did through which we were justified!


Rom 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV

You don't have to call it the "works of the Spirit," but I guarantee you that there was not a little effort in the justification of mankind!

Finally, regarding the "works of the flesh in the Christian life," yes, I would agree ... ideally. However, how many do you know who suffer from Paul's dilemma in Romans 7?


Romans 7:6-24
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it (the law) is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
KJV


The Scripture, ...


Ecclesiastes 7:20
20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
KJV

... is still true for "Christians" in a practical sense, and that is to what Paul is alluding in Romans 7.

And, please don't be deluded by what Yochanan (John) wrote in 1 John 5:18:

1 John 5:18
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
KJV

That is obviously positional for the same author also wrote this in 1 John 1:8-10:


1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
KJV


So then, God did His works in us through the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) and if He did not, there's no way that we could be justified! Furthermore, as Paul said to the Galatians, if we started that way, i.e., having the Ruach haQodesh do the work and we trust His work by faith, then the "Christian" life must CONTINUE to be lived that way!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Retrobyter,

I answered your point adequately, I believe.

You fail to understand that it is not a battle between the spirit and the flesh. It's a battle between the WORKS of the spirit and the WORKS of the flesh.

And you have tried to slide out of acknowledging my point overtly, by changing the subject to sin, and directing your remarks towards the work of Christ instead of what you were talking about before, which was the legitimacy of 'flesh' in the Christian believer - or not.

I agree we need bodies, but we don't need what the NT calls 'flesh'. The man of flesh has to die with Christ, to become a new creation spiritually, and that begins to happen on this side of the physical grave. Except it does, much of the NT is redundant, especially all the exhortations to please God, obey the Father, cease from sin, take up one's cross, die daily, be perfect, be holy, present our bodies as living sacrifices, in pursuit of Ephesians 2:10. Not to believe we can be free from sin, suggests you don't believe we can be His workmanship, or do His works.

having the Ruach haQodesh do the work

You know, this is not what the Bible says?

It says,

'... if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body...' Romans 8:13 '... ye shall live.'

It is a hugely common misconception that the Holy Spirit does the work for us. In fact, your earlier point that God wants to use our bodies, is correct, but the outworking of His life in us is directly proportional to the outworking of His death in us, because that's the only way to let the Spirit have the ascendancy. We have to be abandoned to the will of God, such that we are willing to suffer in the flesh, to live for righteousness. Only that way do we really feel the effect of His death applied by the Spirit in our everyday lives. It is not all suffering, except when we find a conflict of interest between our flesh and His Spirit; then we feel the difference if we allow Him to have His way in our lives. We always have the final word, which will be the downfall of some people, who think God must be in agreement with them having their own way all the time, because He doesn't stop them.

 

[daq]

Hi daq,

I very much like how you explained the relevance of the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, and your focus on the throne of grace. I've heard a lot of preaching about both Covenants, but never quite in the way you chose to pitch it in your post, keeping your eye on the city to come.

The first man Adam is yatsar which is "to form" or "to shape" as clay in the hands of the Potter:

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7. And the Lord God formed [HSN#3335 yatsar] man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Original Strong's Ref. #3335
Romanized yatsar
Pronounced yaw-tsar'
probably identical with HSN3334 (through the squeezing into shape); ([compare HSN3331]); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively, to determine (i.e. form a resolution):
KJV--X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make(-r), potter, purpose.

The Second Adam of Genesis 1:26 is not necessarily "made" as in "created" but rather `asah which is and action; "to cause" or "to do", (and therefore sometimes "to make" but more in the sense of causing or "making" and action or effect to occur). In addition the Second Adam is not necessarily "created" in Genesis 1:27 where bara' is then found because bara' can also mean "to cut down" as in the felling of a tree or woods, ("Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth Yesha-Salvation" Isaiah 45:8)

Genesis 1:26-27 KJV
26. And God said, Let us make [HSN#6213 `asah] man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27. So God created [HSN#1254 bara'] man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Original Strong's Ref. #6213
Romanized `asah
Pronounced aw-saw'
a primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application (as follows):
KJV--accomplish, advance, appoint, apt, be at, become, bear, bestow, bring forth, bruise, be busy, X certainly, have the charge of, commit, deal (with), deck, + displease, do, (ready) dress(-ed), (put in) execute(-ion), exercise, fashion, + feast, [fight-]ing man, + finish, fit, fly, follow, fulfill, furnish, gather, get, go about, govern, grant, great, + hinder, hold ([a feast]), X indeed, + be industrious, + journey, keep, labour, maintain, make, be meet, observe, be occupied, offer, + officer, pare, bring (come) to pass, perform, pracise, prepare, procure, provide, put, requite, X sacrifice, serve, set, shew, X sin, spend, X surely, take, X thoroughly, trim, X very, + vex, be [warr-]ior, work(-man), yield, use.

Original Strong's Ref. #1254
Romanized bara'
Pronounced baw-raw'
a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes):
KJV--choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

However, Eve was none of the above but rather banah which is "to build" like a city or a tabernacle with its framework:

Genesis 2:22 KJV
22. And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made [HSN#1129 banah] he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Original Strong's Ref. #1129
Romanized banah
Pronounced baw-naw'
a primitive root; to build (literally and figuratively):
KJV--(begin to) build(-er), obtain children, make, repair, set (up), X surely.

Genesis 4:17 KJV
17. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded [HSN#1129 banah] a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Genesis 10:8-12 KJV
8. And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
9. He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.
10. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
11. Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded [HSN#1129 banah] Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
12. And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.

The women are the cities are the covenants and one of them represents the body of the flesh which is the physical "building" or "structure" of the man with its skin-covering-tent, (Hagar the Egyptian and the city of below). Here therefore we have no continuing city because we put off the flesh, the mind of the flesh, the eyes of the flesh, and all the deeds thereof so as to walk according to the Spirit of the Word. One day the New City will come down from above and both the "Old" and New Covenants will no more be hidden from sight because the supernal heart and spiritual mind and eyes will no more be vailed; then a son is truly born into the kingdom, and the Tabernacle of God shall be with that new creation son, and time shall be no more because death will have been destroyed, and that one shall walk out the remainder of his days being clothed from on high, as the days of the heavens upon the earth, in Shabbat rest-repose, and in the holiness of Messiah Yeshua unto the Father.

 

[dragonfly]

As you know, I think slowly, but you seem to be drawing a specific link between Genesis 1:27 and 1 Corinthians 15:45. My margin links that verse to
John 5:21 and Romans 5:14, but I would like to pick up on what I dug out of BLB's entries on yatsar and `asah... It seems there is quite a difficulty divving up the meanings between them, but this is what I got by way of understanding. That yatsar establishes the physical appearance, or rule/discipline, while `asah is something more about the work/practical expression involved in bringing out what is in God's/one's heart, from God's/one's heart. I can see how these are pretty inseparable in the outworking of both. Am I close? If not, please say more about why the first Adam relates to Genesis 2.

Is there a connection, here, in either of them, to Romans 8:29? I would be interested to know if the Greek lines them up, through the Septuagint.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq.
You ARE straining at that gnat and swallowing a camel! Why is it that every time I read some of the things you write I am reminded of that age-old advice, "Don't make a mountain out of a mole-hill"?

I fear that you have the wrong idea about some of these words: baaraa', for instance, means "to create (from nothing)." The only sense that it can mean "to cut down (a wood)" is in the sense of CLEARING a parcel of ground for a field in which to plant!

That's what Y'howshua` (Joshua) was saying to the childen of Yosef (Joseph):


Joshua 17:14-18
14 And the children of Joseph spake unto Joshua, saying, Why hast thou given me but one lot and one portion to inherit, seeing I am a great people, forasmuch as the Lord hath blessed me hitherto?
15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
16 And the children of Joseph said, The hill is not enough for us: and all the Canaanites that dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both they who are of Beth-shean and her towns, and they who are of the valley of Jezreel.
17 And Joshua spake unto the house of Joseph, even to Ephraim and to Manasseh, saying, Thou art a great people, and hast great power: thou shalt not have one lot only:
18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down: and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.
KJV

He's not talking about destroying the woods; he's talking about CREATING CLEARED LAND! It's all a matter of perspective!

As far as the creative process in making a human being, it is important that you understand that Genesis 1:26-27 is talking about the GENERAL while Genesis 2:7ff gets into the particulars. Furthermore, BOTH Genesis 1 and 2 are talking about the SAME EVENT!

God talked about MAKING (`aasaah) the man as to design his body structure out of material that already existed.
Then, He proceeded to take the dust of the ground and FORMED or SHAPED (yaatsar) the body of that man, as a potter would with clay.
HOWEVER, He still CREATED (baaraa') the man! Consider the following verses:


Genesis 5:1-2
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created (Hebrew: bro' from baaraa') man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created (Hebrew: braa'aam from baaraa') he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created (Hebrew: hibaar'aam from bara').
KJV

Deuteronomy 4:32
32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created (Hebrew: baaraa') man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
KJV

Psalm 89:47
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made (Hebrew: baaraa'taa from baaraa') all men in vain?
KJV


Isaiah 45:12
12 I have made the earth, and created (Hebrew: baaraa'tiy from baaraa') man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
KJV

Why do you have such disjoint thinking? Remember how Hebrew literature is constructed. It frequently begins with a summation and THEN goes into the details, backtracking a bit in thought. Genesis 1 talks about the WHOLE week of Creation; Genesis 2 zooms in on Day 6!