No continuing city?

[dragonfly]

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.


How should 'no continuing city' be interpreted in light of Hebrews 11:10, 13 - 16 and Hebrews 12:22 - 24?


Does it make any difference that we don't know for sure, who wrote Hebrews?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How should 'no continuing city' be interpreted in light of Hebrews 11:10, 13 - 16 and Hebrews 12:22 - 24?

It's sort of obvious, isn't it?

 

[HammerStone]

I hold to Pauline authorship (via a scribe) of Hebrews, personally, but I don't know that it makes a difference if you believe one way or the other. The only place I see this mattering much is the sort of robustly liberal higher criticism of which I am not personally interested. (This is the sort of scholarship that wants to argue that the Bible argues amongst itself, more or less.)

This passage speaks of the juxtaposition of the Jerusalem that is over and against the Jerusalem that will be. Hebrews 13:12 ties this to Jesus and his death outside of the city of Jerusalem which was according to the Old Testament ordinances (v 11), meant for a time where we needed Christ to make that sacrifice since we cannot save ourselves. This is the reality of our current world, if you will.

The only place of tension I see in the listed passages would be Hebrews 12:22-24, but this is what Paul speaks of in I Corinthians 13:12 when he says we see now dimly and in part. We aren't there yet, as we are being saved and sanctified. We are still undergoing the processing part of being a citizen of the heavenly Jerusalem which is not yet in terms of full existence, even though it's absolutely being built in a spiritual sense. It [the city] exists through God and the Holy Spirit at work within us, but it is not the de facto Jerusalem here on earth at the moment.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

It's sort of obvious, isn't it?

Well, it used to be, until I heard so many varying alternatives focusing on Jerusalem below.



Hi HammerStone,

I lean towards Paul, too, now.

being a citizen of the heavenly Jerusalem which is not yet in terms of full existence, even though it's absolutely being built in a spiritual sense

I think I would give it a bit more weight than that, as it's been being built for so long.

One of the tensions that I see, is the conflict - if it is a conflict - between the idea of a house, and a city. It seems to me that the Son is over His house, but Moses was only a servant (not a son); and there may be a difference between those who will dwell in the house with the Son, and those who will dwell in the city.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

One of the tensions that I see, is the conflict - if it is a conflict - between the idea of a house, and a city. It seems to me that the Son is over His house, but Moses was only a servant (not a son); and there may be a difference between those who will dwell in the house with the Son, and those who will dwell in the city.

I think there may be something to this.

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. Revelation 11:1-2

 

[dragonfly]

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. Revelation 11:1-2

That is not at all what I had in mind. But, let's see where it leads - or where it led?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That is not at all what I had in mind. But, let's see where it leads - or where it led?

Actually in a way, I think it is exactly what you were implying. The temple and altar are GOD's house, and they along with those who worship therein are spared judgment. Those who dwell in the city are not, but they are still GOD's people.

I'm merely trying to point out that the scripture does make the distinction you mentioned.

 

[dragonfly]

Okay. I'm not sure your verses make the same distinction that mine do.

The places I had in mind are

Matthew 17:26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. (Hebrews 2:13b)

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

 

[Rex]

I think there may be something to this.

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. Revelation 11:1-2

I just did a bit of number crunching, I subtracted 1260 years from 1948 and found 688 AD then I googled 688 AD historical events and guess what 688 is the year of the Muslims dome of the rock. That is using Jewish 360 day years, now If I take 42 months x 30.44 solar days/ month, I get 1278.48 "years" I subtract that from 1967 Jerusalem freed, and I get 688.5 AD again. So yes there is something. that is IMO
I'll have to add that to the other dates I keep in mind

Math 24:36

LOL praise the Lord

 

[daq]

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.


How should 'no continuing city' be interpreted in light of Hebrews 11:10, 13 - 16 and Hebrews 12:22 - 24?

Hi dragonfly
The women are the cities are the covenants:

Galatians 4:22-29 ASV
22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman.
23. Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise.
24. Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar.
25. Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.
26. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.

This passage clearly concerns the opposition and enmity between the Spirit and the Flesh. The passage likewise clearly concerns an allegory and is even stated to be such. The passage also clearly concerns the two covenants which are really the one covenant but seen through the two main different mindset-perspectives of either the Spirit or the Flesh. Jerusalem of above is likened to Sarah, the mother of the Promise, while Jerusalem of below is likened to Hagar the Egyptian who was the mother of the physical child "born after the flesh". Jerusalem of above is our mother while the city of below is portrayed in Revelation 11 as Sodom and Egypt, (Hagar) and in Revelation 17 as "the Mother of Harlots". Likewise there are "two mountains" in reference even though the passage above only mentions Sinai, (note that conversely Ishmael is also not mentioned but assumed by the context). When Sinai is mentioned then by default Horeb is also referenced because they are two different names for the same mountain and this is the reason why. Although these are commonly thought to be the same mountain they are not the same: Sinai is the allegory of the physical, natural, earthly mountain, while Horeb is quite clearly the spiritual-supernal Mountain of God wherein the Malak of YHWH first appeared to Moses in the burning bush, (Exodus 3:1). Thus we have the two covenants and the women are the cities are the covenants; the one seen through the eyes and mind of the Spirit, and again the same covenant but rather seen through the eyes and mind of the Flesh.

Galatians 4:27 is quoting Isaiah 54:1 but Paul is linking to this passage in true "remez-pointer" fashion:

Galatians 4:27 KJV
27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. [Isaiah 54:1]

Yet if one does not take this as "remez" and check the passage "pointed at" then the same will not have the full contextual meaning:

Isaiah 54:1-3 KJV
1. Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord. [Galatians 4:27]
2. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3. For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, [Genesis 3:15, Revelation 12:17] and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

The woman is a "tent" with fine white linens, curtains of her habitations, lengthy cords, and strong stakes.
She is our "covenant mother" the wilderness Tabernacle of Moses, (much of the focus of Hebrews).

1) Spirit -vs- Flesh
2) Isaac -vs- Ishmael
3) Sarah -vs- Hagar
4) Covenant Mother -vs- Mother of Harlots
5) Jerusalem of Above -vs- Jerusalem of Below
6) Mount Zion-Horeb (Hebrews 12:18-23) -vs- Mount Sinai (Galatians 4:24-26)

It is the same Covenant viewed through two different sets of eyes:
Eyes and mind of the Spirit -vs- Eyes and mind of the Flesh.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.


How should 'no continuing city' be interpreted in light of Hebrews 11:10, 13 - 16 and Hebrews 12:22 - 24?


Does it make any difference that we don't know for sure, who wrote Hebrews?

Wouldn't it be wise to know what one is talking about before making any assumptions? What do the words in the Greek mean? Here's the verse in the Greek, and the Greek words are PREGNANT with meaning!


Hebrews 13:14
14 ou gar echomen hoode menousan polin alla teen mellousan epizeetoumen.
The Greek New Testament

14 ou = 14 not
gar = for
echomen = we-do-hold/possess
hoode = here
menousan = staying/permanent
polin = a-city
alla = but
teen = the/that
mellousan = to-come
epizeetoumen. = we-desire/crave.

And, yes! They do EXACTLY reflect the other two passages!


Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16
8 Pistei kaloumenos Abraam hupeekousen exelthein eis topon hon eemellen lambanein eis kleeronomian, kai exeelthen mee epistamenos pou erchetai.
9 Pistei parookeesen eis geen thees epaggelias hoos allotrian en skeenais katoikeesas meta Isaak kai Iakoob toon sugkleeronomoon tees epaggelias tees autees;
10 exedecheto bar teen tous themelious echousan polin hees technitees kai deemiourgos ho Theos.
...
13 Kata pistin apethanon houtoi pantes, mee labontes tas epaggelias alla porroothen autas idontes kai aspasamenoi kai homologeesantes hoti xenoi kai parepideemoi eisin epi tees gees.
14 Hoi bar toiauta legontes emfanizousin hoti patrida epizeetousin.
15 Kai ei men ekeinees emneemoneuon af' hees exebeesan eichon an kairon anakampsai;
16 nun de kreittonos oregontai, tout' estin epouraniou. Dio ouk epaischunetai autous ho Theos Theos epikaleisthai autoon; heetoimasen gar autois polin.
The Greek New Testament

8 Pistei = 8 By-trust
kaloumenos = was-called
Abraam = Avraham (Abraham)
hupeekousen = listened-under
exelthein = to-strike-out
eis = into
topon = a-place
hon = which
eemellen = he-would-later
lambanein = receive
eis = into
kleeronomian, = an-inheritance,
kai = and
exeelthen = he-struck-out
mee = not
epistamenos = knowing/comprehending
pou = where
erchetai. = he-was-going.
9 Pistei = 9 By-trust
parookeesen = he-resided-as-a-foreigner
eis = into
geen = land
thees = the
epaggelias = of-promise
hoos = like
allotrian = a-foreign-country
en = in
skeenais = tents
katoikeesas = dwelling
meta = with
Isaak = YItschaq (Isaac)
kai = and
Iakoob = Ya`aqov (Jacob)
toon = the
sugkleeronomoon = heirs-with-him
tees = of-the
epaggelias = promise
tees = of-the
autees; = same;
10 exedecheto = 10 he-was-ready-to-receive
gar = for
teen = that
tous = same
themelious = foundations
echousan = which-has
polin = a-city
hees whose
technitees = designer
kai = and
deemiourgos = constructor
ho = the
Theos. = God.
...
13 Kata = 13 According-to
pistin = trust
apethanon = died-away
houtoi = these
pantes, = all,
mee = not
labontes = having-received
tas = the
epaggelias = promises,
alla = but
porroothen = afar-off
autas = them
idontes = having-seen
kai = and
aspasamenoi = embraced
kai = and
homologeesantes = likewise-said
hoti = that
xenoi = strangers
kai = and
parepideemoi = resident-foreigners
eisin = they-were
epi = upon
tees = the
gees. = Land.
14 Hoi = 14 The
gar = for
toiauta = of-such-things
legontes = sayers
emfanizousin = declare-plainly
hoti = that
patrida = a-country
epizeetousin. = they-search-for/demand/crave
15 Kai = 15 And
ei = if
men = truly
ekeinees = of-that
emneemoneuon = they-had-been-mindful
af' (api) = from
hees = where
exebeesan = they-had-stricken-out
eichon = they-have-had
an = might
kairon = an-opportunity
anakampsai; = to-have-returned;
16 nun = 16 now
de = but
kreittonos = a-stronger/better/nobler
oregontai, = they-desire,
tout' = that
estin = is
epouraniou. = a-one-above-the-sky.
Dio = Thus
ouk = not
epaischunetai = is-ashamed
autous = of-them
ho = the
Theos = God
Theos = God
epikaleisthai = to-be-called
autoon; = of-them/their;
heetoimasen = he-has-prepared
gar = for
autois = for-them
polin. = a-city

Hebrews 12:22-24
22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, paneegurei
23 kai ekkleesia proototokoon apogegrammenoon en ouranois kai Kritee Theoo pantoon kai pneumasi dikaioon teteleioomenoon
24 kai diatheekees neas Mesitee Ieesou kai haimati rantismou kreitton lalounti para ton Habel.
The Greek New Testament

22 Alla = 22 But
proseleeluthate = you-are-coming
Sioon = to-Tsiown (Zion)
orei = mountain
kai = and
polei = city
Theou = of-God
zoontos, = living,
Ierousaleem = Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)
epouranioo, = above-the-sky,
kai = and
muriasin = to-myriads
aggeloon, = of-messengers,
paneegurei = to-a-mass-meeting
23 kai = 23 and
ekkleesia = called-out-(group)
proototokoon of-first-born-children
apogegrammenoon = written-away
en = in
ouranois = (the)-sky
kai = and
Kritee = to-Judge
Theoo = God
pantoon = of-all
kai = and
pneumasi = to-spirits
dikaioon = of-justified
teteleioomenoon = completed/finished
24 kai = 24 and
diatheekees = to-covenant
neas = new
Mesitee = Mediator
Ieesou = Yeshua` (Jesus)
kai = and
haimati = to-blood
rantismou = sprinkling
kreitton = stronger/better/nobler
lalounti = that-talks
para = nearer/than
ton = that
Habel. = of-Hevel (Abel).

Furthermore, much of this book reflects exactly what one finds in the book of Revelation, chapters 21 and 22!

It truly doesn't matter who was the author of Hebrews; however, much of this book is at least in sync with the Revelation. If it wasn't written by Yochanan (John), the authors were sure on the same page!

Shalom, again, dragonfly.

I took the time to read some of the other answers, and I came to the conclusion that I should say more, if for no other reason than to bring the discussion back down to earth! Sometimes, well-meaning individuals get so "out-there" with their theories, that their ropes attached to their moorings and anchors are stretched beyond the breaking point and they fly off to La-la-land!

This is not about a contrast between the New Jerusalem and the old Jerusalem; it's about permanency! It's having a city whose foundations, once set, will never again be removed! There's no guarantee for old Jerusalem; in fact, we know from Ezekiel that the city will be rebuilt during the Millennium. However, we DO have such a guarantee concerning the New Jerusalem. Once its foundations are sunk into the New Earth, it will be permanent! Let's read the verses simply:



14 for we do not possess a permanent city here but we crave one to come!

8 By trust when Avraham (Abraham) was called, he listened as an underling to strike out into a place which he would later receive into an inheritance, and he struck out not knowing/comprehending where he was going.
9 By trust he resided as a foreigner into the Land of Promise as though it was a foreign country, dwelling in tents with YItschaq (Isaac) and Ya`aqov (Jacob), the heirs with him of the same promise;
10 for he was ready to receive that same city which has foundations whose Designer and Constructor [is] God.
...
13 According to trust, these all died away, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off and embraced [them] and likewise said that they were strangers and resident-foreigners upon the Land.
14 For the sayers of such things declare plainly that they search for/demand/crave a country.
15 And if truly they had been mindful of that from where they had stricken out, they might have had an opportunity to have returned;
16 but now they desire a stronger/better/nobler [city], that is, one from above the sky. Thus, God is not ashamed of them to be called their God; for He has prepared for them a city.

22 But you are coming to Tsiown (Zion), mountain and city of [the] living God, Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) from above the sky, and to myriads of messengers, to a mass meeting
23 and a called-out [group] of first-born children written away in [the] sky and to God Judge of all and to [the] spirits of justified [individuals] completed/finished
24 and to Yeshua` (Jesus), Mediator of a new covenant and to sprinkling blood that talks stronger/better/nobler than that of Hevel (Abel).

Now, let's look at Revelation 21:1-22:5

Revelation 21:1-22:5
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV

Just to compare, here is the Greek of this passage. I won't go into the details at this time.

Revelation 21:1-22:5

21:1 Kai eidon ouranon kainon kai geen kaineen. Ho gar prootos ouranos kai hee prootee gee apeelthan kai hee thalasa ouk estin eti.
2 Kai teen polin teen hagian Ierousaleem kaineen eidon katabainousan ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou heetoimasmeneen hoos numfeen kekosmeemeneen too andri autees.
3 Kai eekousa foonees megalees ek tou thronou legousees: "Idou hee skeenee tou Theou meta toon anthroopoon, kai skeenoosei met' autoon, kai autoi laoi autou esontai, kai autos ho Theos met' autoon estai [autoon Theos],
4 kai exaleipsei pan dakruon ek toon ofthalmoon autoon, kai ho thanatos ouk estai eti oute penthos oute kraugee oute ponos ouk etai eti, [hoti] ta proota apeelthan."
5 Kai ripen ho Katheemenos epi too thronoo, "Idou kaina poioo panta." Kai legei, "Grapson, hoti houtoi hoi logoi pistoi kai aleethinoi eisin."
6 Kai eipen moi, "Gegonan; Ego [eimi] to Alfa kai to Oo, hee Archee kai to Telos. Egoo too dipsoonti doosoo ek tees peegees tou Hudatos tees Zooees doorean.
7 Ho nikoon kleeronomeesei tauta kai esomai autoo Theos kai autos estai moi huios.
8 Tois de deilois kai apistois kai ebdelugmenois kai foneusin kai pornois kai farmakois kai eidoololatrais kai pasin tois pseudesin to meros autoon en tee limnee tee kaiomenee puri kai theioo, ho estin ho Thanatos ho Deuteros."
9 Kai eel then sis ek toon hepta aggeloon toon echontoon tas hepta fialas, toon gemontoon too hepta pleegoon toon eschatoon kai elaleesen met' emou legoon, "Deuro, deixoo soi teen numfeen teen gunaika tou Arniou."
10 Kai apeenegken me en pneumati epi oros mega kai hupseelon, kai edeixen moi teen polin teen hagian Ierousaleem katabainousan ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou
11 echousan teen doxan tou Theou ho foosteer autees homoios lithoo timiootatoo hoos lithoo iaspidi krustallizonti.
12 Echousa teichos mega kai hupseelon, echousa puloonas doodeka kai epi tois puloosin aggelous doodeka kai onomata epigegrammena, ha estin [ta onomata] toon doodeka fuloon huioon Israeel:
13 api anatolees puloones treis kai apo borra puloones treis kai apo notou puloones treis kai apo dusmoon puloones treis.
14 Kai to teichos tees poles echoon themelious doodeka kai ep' autoon doodeka onomata too doodeka apostoloon tou Arniou.
15 Kai ho laloon met' emou eichen metron kalamon chrusoun hina metreesee teen polin kai tous puloonas autees kai to teichos autees.
16 Kai hee polis tetragoonos keitai kai to meekos autees hoson [kai] to platos. Kai emetreesen teen polin tou kalamoo epi stadioon doodeka chiliadoon, to meekos kai to platos kai to hupsos autees isa estin.
17 Kai emetreesen to teichos autees hekaton tessarakonta tessaroon peechoon metron anthroopou ho estin aggelou.
18 Kai hee endoomeesis tou teichous autees iaspis kai hee polis chrusion katharon homoion hualoo katharoo.
19 Hoi themelioi tou teichous tees poleoos pant lithoo timioo kekosmeemenoi ho themelios ho prootos iaspis, ho deuteros sapfiros, ho tritos chalkeedoon, ho tetartos smaragdos,
20 ho pemptos sardonux, ho hektos sartino, ho hebdomos chrusolithos, ho ogdoos beerullos, ho enatos topazio, ho dekatos chrusoprasos, ho hendekatos huakinthos, ho doodekatos amethustos,
21 kai hoi doodeka puloones doodeka margaritai ana heis hekastos toon puloonoon een ex henos margaritou. Kai hee plateia tees poleoos chrusion katharon hoos hualos diaugees.
22 Kai naon ouk eidon en autee, ho gar Kurios ho Theos ho Pantokratoor naos autees estin kai to Arnion.
23 Kai hee polis ou chreian echei tou heeliou oude tees seleenees hina fainoosin autee, hee gar doxa tou Tehous efootisen auteen, kai ho luchnos autees to Arnion.
24 Kai peripateesousin ta ethnee dia tou footos autees, kai hoi basileis tees gees ferousin teen doxan autoon eis auteen,
25 kai hoi puloones autees ou mee kleisthoosin heemeras, nux gar ouk estai ekei,
26 kai oisousin teen doxan kai ten timeen toon ethnoon eis auteen.
27 Kai ou mee eiselthee eis auteen pan koinon kai [ho] poioon bdelugma kai pseudos ei mee hoi gegrammenoi en too Biblioo tees Zooees tou Arniou.
22:1 Kai edeixen moi potamon hudatos zooees lampron hoos krustallon, ekporeuomenon ek tou thronou tou Theou kai tou Arniou.
2 En mesoo tees plateias autees kai tou potamou enteuthen kai ekeithen Xulon Zooees poioun karpous doodeka, kata meena hekaston apodidoun ton karpon autou kai ta fulla tou xulou eis therapeian toon ethnoon.
3 Kai pan katathema ouk estai eti. Kai ho thronos tou Theou kai tou Arniou en autee estai, kai hoi douloi autou latreusousin autoo
4 kai opsontai to prosoopon autou, kai to onoma autou epi toon metoopoon autoon.
5 Kai nux ouk estai eti kai ouk echousin chreian footos luchnou kai footos heeliou, hoti Kurios ho Theos footisei ep' autous kai basileusousin eis tous aioonas toon aioonoon.

The Greek New Testament

Avraham looked for a city with foundations (Hebrews 11:10; Greek: themelioi) and the New Jerusalem will have just that, twelve foundations (Revelation 21:14, 19; Greek: themelioi). Although you might not see it in English, this information is found in the fact that it wasn't until after Avraham gave tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq (Melchizedek) that he called YHWH "Adonai," which means a "foundation-setter."

 

[daq]

Shalom, again, dragonfly.

I took the time to read some of the other answers, and I came to the conclusion that I should say more, if for no other reason than to bring the discussion back down to earth! Sometimes, well-meaning individuals get so "out-there" with their theories, that their ropes attached to their moorings and anchors are stretched beyond the breaking point and they fly off to La-la-land!

This is not about a contrast between the New Jerusalem and the old Jerusalem; it's about permanency! It's having a city whose foundations, once set, will never again be removed! There's no guarantee for old Jerusalem; in fact, we know from Ezekiel that the city will be rebuilt during the Millennium. However, we DO have such a guarantee concerning the New Jerusalem. Once its foundations are sunk into the New Earth, it will be permanent! Let's read the verses simply:

Nice try Retrobyter but Paul clearly states that what he speaks of is an allegory and that allegory is the tale of two cities which are two women which are the two covenants. The women-cities are always portrayed in this way:

Isaiah 50:1 KJV
1. Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Ezekiel 16:1-3 KJV
1. Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2. Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
3. And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

Ezekiel 16:44-55 KJV
44. Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.
45. Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.
46. And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
47. Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.
48. As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
49. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
51. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.
52. Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.
53. When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
54. That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
55. When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Ezekiel 16:60 KJV
60. Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

You simply do not appear willing to accept the allegorical language of Scripture. Likewise it appears you do this so as to continue forcing a "literal city" New Jerusalem interpretation; literally coming down out of what you call the "sky kingdom", so that you may have your thousand-year global empire of "resurrected flesh" ruling over the "lesser brethren" which happen to make it through your purely physical "war to end all wars", found on Armageddon maps of the Middle East: and fortunately for them, whichever "lesser brethren sheeples" make it through the next holocaust while you are "feasting in your sky kingdom" during "the greatest tribulation that shall ever be" will become privileged enough to live beneath you in a physical earthly kingdom dominated by your doctrines when you return.

Please be honest with yourself Retrobyter: which sounds more like your "la-la-land" statement?

Jerusalem of Above is my covenant mother, (Galatians 4:26). Perhaps your own covenant mother still needs to go into the wilderness for her appointed times of separation-impurity before you arrive at Bar-Mitzvah and become a fully immersed son of the kingdom? (I speak by the Scripture). But as for my covenant mother she is adorned in gold, and silver, and brass, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, and rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and all the tamiyd-continual holy things are as oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and sweet incense, (Exodus 25:3-6).

 

[dragonfly]

Hi daq,

Thanks for your very clear explanation. I really like the way you link ideas up in writing, which shows off more of what scripture is saying.

The passage also clearly concerns the two covenants which are really the one covenant

Would you be kind enough to pick up on this point using Hebrews 9:15, in the Romans 11 thread? I'd like to hear your exposition, if you have time.



Hi Retrobyter,

Having not followed other of your arguments (except when I'm interested in a thread where you are posting), I don't have quite as clear an idea as daq seems to have, about the length and breadth of how you interpret scripture; but I do keep coming up against your fixation with the earthly, and your regular denigration of the invisible spiritual truth which the earthly was created to expound. Romans 1:20 (and 19)

In your last post in this thread, there is very little difference between your explanation of the 'continuing city', and daq's, except that you tend to preface your expostion with a negative statement, as if you really don't see that creation displays the invisible things of God all the time.

This is not about a contrast between the New Jerusalem and the old Jerusalem

As far as getting people to look up, and remain seated with Christ in heavenly places, it most certainly is about the contrast. Far too many so-called believers have fallen for false doctrine based on faulty reading of scriptures. The permanence we can expect is not in this life, in fleshly terms.

 

[veteran]

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.


How should 'no continuing city' be interpreted in light of Hebrews 11:10, 13 - 16 and Hebrews 12:22 - 24?


Does it make any difference that we don't know for sure, who wrote Hebrews?

The manner of speaking in Hebrews is definitely Apostle Paul's. But the writing style is Luke's. Some Bible scholars agree.

Apparently, Apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh sent to buffet him because of all the revelations Christ gave him, involved bad eyesight...

Gal 6:11
11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
(KJV)


Because of the problems the Galatian believers were having, Paul chose to write that letter by his own hand, in large letter script.


The Hebrews Scripture you reference is about the New Jerusalem that God will bring down to this earth.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

Thanks for your thoughts. What are the key reasons Luke might be the author of Hebrews? (Just a brief outline, or link would be interesting.)

Thanks.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, daq, and, dragonfly, "very clear explanation?" Hardly.

Nice try Retrobyter but Paul clearly states that what he speaks of is an allegory and that allegory is the tale of two cities which are two women which are the two covenants. The women-cities are always portrayed in this way:

Isaiah 50:1 KJV
1. Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Ezekiel 16:1-3 KJV
1. Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2. Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
3. And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

Ezekiel 16:44-55 KJV
44. Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.
45. Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.
46. And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
47. Yet hast thou not walked after their ways, nor done after their abominations: but, as if that were a very little thing, thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.
48. As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
49. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
51. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.
52. Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.
53. When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
54. That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
55. When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Ezekiel 16:60 KJV
60. Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.

You simply do not appear willing to accept the allegorical language of Scripture. Likewise it appears you do this so as to continue forcing a "literal city" New Jerusalem interpretation; literally coming down out of what you call the "sky kingdom", so that you may have your thousand-year global empire of "resurrected flesh" ruling over the "lesser brethren" which happen to make it through your purely physical "war to end all wars", found on Armageddon maps of the Middle East: and fortunately for them, whichever "lesser brethren sheeples" make it through the next holocaust while you are "feasting in your sky kingdom" during "the greatest tribulation that shall ever be" will become privileged enough to live beneath you in a physical earthly kingdom dominated by your doctrines when you return.

Please be honest with yourself Retrobyter: which sounds more like your "la-la-land" statement?

Jerusalem of Above is my covenant mother, (Galatians 4:26). Perhaps your own covenant mother still needs to go into the wilderness for her appointed times of separation-impurity before you arrive at Bar-Mitzvah and become a fully immersed son of the kingdom? (I speak by the Scripture). But as for my covenant mother she is adorned in gold, and silver, and brass, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, and rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and all the tamiyd-continual holy things are as oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and sweet incense, (Exodus 25:3-6).

STICK TO THE CONTEXT!!! First and foremost, you need to stick to the context when an author is presenting an allegory and quit sending feelers out throughout the Bible for "look-alikes" that you FEEL are related! They are NOT related unless God or the human author SAYS they're related!

Let's look at the context to which you are REALLY referring:


Galatians 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one (Ishma'el) by a bondmaid (Hagar), the other (Yitschaq) by a freewoman (Sarah).
23 But he (Ishma'el) who was of the bondwoman (Hagar) was born after the flesh (a human attempt to help God out with His promise); but he (Yitschaq) of the freewoman (Sarah) was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai (the Torah given to Moshe on tables of stone), which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar (Hagar).
25 For this Agar (Hagar) is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to (on the same mountain range as) Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above (opposite to [mount Sinai]) is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

Let's look at the Greek to confirm this:


Galatians 4:22-31
22 Gegraptai gar hoti Abraam duo huious eschen, hena ek tees paidiskees kai hena ek tees eleutheras.
23 All' ho men ek tees paidiskees kata sarka gegenneetai, ho de ek tees eleutheras di' epaggelias.
24 Hatina estin alleegoroumena: hautai gar eisin duo diatheekai, mia men apo orous Sina eis douleian gennoosa, heetis estin Hagar.
25 To de Hagar Sina oros estin en tee Arabia; sustoichei ("marches-with") de tee nun Ierousaleem, douleuei gar meta toon teknoon autees.
26 Hee de anoo (adverbial form of anti meaning "opposite") Ierousaleem eleuthera estin, heetis estin meeteer heemoon;
27 gegraptai gar, "Eufrantheeti, steira hee ou tiktousa hreexon kai boeeson, hee ouk oodinousa; hoti polla ta tekna tees ereemou mallon ee tees echousees ton andra."
28 Humeis de, adelfoi, kata Isaak epaggelias tekna este.
29 All' hoosper tote ho kata sarka genneetheis ediooken ton kata pneuma, houtoos kai nun.
30 Alla ti legei hee grafee? "Ekbale teen paidiskeen kai ton huion autees; ou gar mee kleeronomeesei ho huios tees paidiskees meta tou huiou tees eleutheras."
31 Dio, adelfoi, ouk esmen paidiskees tekna alla tees eleutheras.
The Greek New Testament

Verse 26 is NOT talking about the New Jerusalem! "Above" is an unfortunate word used for translation of "anoo." This passage is ONLY contrasting har-mount Sinai with har-mount Tsiown. Sinai is bondage; Tsiown (upon which Yerushalayim sits) is freedom. And, the reason why Har Tsiown is "uncertain" regarding its position is because in the Scriptures it is the name of the MOUNTAIN RANGE, not just a peak! That's why Paul had to be specific and refer to Yerushalayim which DID sit upon certain peaks.

 

[daq]

Shalom, daq, and, dragonfly, "very clear explanation?" Hardly.


STICK TO THE CONTEXT!!! First and foremost, you need to stick to the context when an author is presenting an allegory and quit sending feelers out throughout the Bible for "look-alikes" that you FEEL are related! They are NOT related unless God or the human author SAYS they're related!

Let's look at the context to which you are REALLY referring:


Galatians 4:22-31
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one (Ishma'el) by a bondmaid (Hagar), the other (Yitschaq) by a freewoman (Sarah).
23 But he (Ishma'el) who was of the bondwoman (Hagar) was born after the flesh (a human attempt to help God out with His promise); but he (Yitschaq) of the freewoman (Sarah) was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai (the Torah given to Moshe on tables of stone), which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar (Hagar).
25 For this Agar (Hagar) is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to (on the same mountain range as) Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above (opposite to [mount Sinai]) is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

Let's look at the Greek to confirm this:


Galatians 4:22-31
22 Gegraptai gar hoti Abraam duo huious eschen, hena ek tees paidiskees kai hena ek tees eleutheras.
23 All' ho men ek tees paidiskees kata sarka gegenneetai, ho de ek tees eleutheras di' epaggelias.
24 Hatina estin alleegoroumena: hautai gar eisin duo diatheekai, mia men apo orous Sina eis douleian gennoosa, heetis estin Hagar.
25 To de Hagar Sina oros estin en tee Arabia; sustoichei ("marches-with") de tee nun Ierousaleem, douleuei gar meta toon teknoon autees.
26 Hee de anoo (adverbial form of anti meaning "opposite") Ierousaleem eleuthera estin, heetis estin meeteer heemoon;
27 gegraptai gar, "Eufrantheeti, steira hee ou tiktousa hreexon kai boeeson, hee ouk oodinousa; hoti polla ta tekna tees ereemou mallon ee tees echousees ton andra."
28 Humeis de, adelfoi, kata Isaak epaggelias tekna este.
29 All' hoosper tote ho kata sarka genneetheis ediooken ton kata pneuma, houtoos kai nun.
30 Alla ti legei hee grafee? "Ekbale teen paidiskeen kai ton huion autees; ou gar mee kleeronomeesei ho huios tees paidiskees meta tou huiou tees eleutheras."
31 Dio, adelfoi, ouk esmen paidiskees tekna alla tees eleutheras.
The Greek New Testament

Verse 26 is NOT talking about the New Jerusalem! "Above" is an unfortunate word used for translation of "anoo." This passage is ONLY contrasting har-mount Sinai with har-mount Tsiown. Sinai is bondage; Tsiown (upon which Yerushalayim sits) is freedom. And, the reason why Har Tsiown is "uncertain" regarding its position is because in the Scriptures it is the name of the MOUNTAIN RANGE, not just a peak! That's why Paul had to be specific and refer to Yerushalayim which DID sit upon certain peaks.

What are you talking about? It seems you are willing to make things up to support your own conclusions:

Galatians 4:26 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
26. He de ano Ierousalem eleuthera estin, hetis estin meter {*}hemon,

Galatians 4:26 LIT (Literal Bible with Strong's Vertical Ref.#s)
26.
|3588| the
|1161| But
|0507| above
|2419| Jerusalem
|1658| free
|2076| is,
|3748| who
|2076| is
|3384| mother
|2257| of us.

Original Strong's Ref. #507
Romanized ano
Pronounced an'-o
adverb from GSN0473; upward or on the top:
KJV--above, brim, high, up.

"Jerusalem of above" is not "an unfortunate word used for translation of anoo" but rather exactly what the text states.

John 8:21-23 KJV
21. Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: [GSN#507 ano] ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Anothen comes from ano and means exactly "from above" as employed in the famous John 3 passage:

John 3:3 LIT
3.
|0611| answered
|2424| Jesus
|2532| and
|2036| said
|0846| to him,
|0281| Truly,
|0281| truly,
|3004| I say
|4671| to you,
|3362| Except
|5100| one
|1080| receive birth
|0509| from above,
|3756| not
|1410| he is able
|1492| to see
|3588| the
|0932| kingdom
|3588| of
|2316| God!

Original Strong's Ref. #509
Romanized anothen
Pronounced an'-o-then
from GSN0507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:
KJV--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

Shall we now alter the theological foundation of what it means to be "born from above" so as to suit your theories?
The Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of prophecy!

Hi daq,

Thanks for your very clear explanation. I really like the way you link ideas up in writing, which shows off more of what scripture is saying.


Would you be kind enough to pick up on this point using Hebrews 9:15, in the Romans 11 thread? I'd like to hear your exposition, if you have time.

My pleasure dragonfly, (seriously, I love discussing the Word! ).
However, it does not look like Hebrews 9:15 can easily be introduced into the Romans 11 thread the way it is going. :unsure:
But I will try to keep one eye on it . . .

 

[veteran]

The manner of speaking in Hebrews is definitely Apostle Paul's. But the writing style is Luke's. Some Bible scholars agree.

Apparently, Apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh sent to buffet him because of all the revelations Christ gave him, involved bad eyesight...

Gal 6:11
11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
(KJV)


Because of the problems the Galatian believers were having, Paul chose to write that letter by his own hand, in large letter script.


The Hebrews Scripture you reference is about the New Jerusalem that God will bring down to this earth.

You might be interested in this work:

http://www.christianbook.com/lukan-authorship-of-hebrews/david-allen/9780805447149/pd/447149

I don't agree with all his premises about Luke. But I do agree with the evidence he presents that it was Luke's writing style.

 

[Trumpeter]

Does it make any difference that we don't know for sure, who wrote Hebrews?

According to scripture, no, it was all written by Holy men of God through His Holy Spirit.

2Pe 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke [as they were] moved by the Holy Spirit.

The important thing is that it all was written through the Holy Spirit.

God bless.

 

[Episkopos]

Peter as the author... and we are to forsake temporal things for the eternal ones. Cities are included in that.