No Denomination named... Evidence Presented... You Decide

[michaelvpardo]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Iconoclasm

I know a bit about the transformation of household idols to Patron saints and the schism it caused between Rome and Constantinople. History doesn't justify rebellion against the commandment. Various Popes codified error in the church and the more recent doctrine of papal infallibility locked those errors in place.
The fact remains that the concept of a vicar of christ and of a priesthood of intercessors is an old covenant practice (the priesthood) made obsolete by the blood of Christ and the free gift of the Holy Spirit to all believers who ask for Him in faith (in the person of our Lord, His death on our behalf, and the resurrection.) Every living soul can know God through the person of His Son, and everyone who knows Him can intercede for those who don't through prayer.

14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16

 

[michaelvpardo]

“And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.” Matt. 23:9
Yet several scriptures address our parents, fathers etc. I always called mine, Dad.
I wonder where they got that? I guess traditionally, they thought they were spiritual fathers, especially if their Dad's did not guide or lead them as they should. I suppose in certain situations as with orphans, Catholic churches sent out missionaries and priests to start orphanages and so they wanted them to feel as if they did have loving parents, to fill that void. Maybe that is how it started?



I hear this all the time. The Bible specifically says not to make any images N of anything in heaven or on earth AND bow down and worship it. Art in the form of sculptures and paintings of angels, Christ, even animals are okay as long as you don't bow down and worship them.
Akianne Kramaik was given a gift by God to paint heavenly visons given to her of angels and Jesus Himself. She is a prodigy and started receiving these visions at 4 years old
AND at 8 years old, painted Jesus.

View attachment 25806

It's a nice painting, but God knows the human fascination with images and our tendency to transform them into objects of veneration (worship.)
In the wilderness Israel was struck with a plague of fiery serpents (seraphim) and Moses had a bronze serpent formed and placed it upon a pole. He instructed those bitten to look upon the serpent to be healed. The image is understood to be a type of Christ on the cross.
Yet, some of those wanderers gave the bronze serpent a name, Nehushtan, kept it and worshiped it until King Hezekiah had it destroyed.

 

[Guestman]

Trinitarianism is true Christianity. Trinity-deniers are usually not. Those are antichrists. Don't listen to anyone who says "Christendom" is a false religion while claiming to be a Christian. The outward appearance of a Christian can be a disguise. Know them by how they attack Christianity.

If a person is sincere, and read Hebrews 1 carefully, they could see that Hebrews 1:8 is inaccurately rendered in the King James Bible, while verse 9 tells the truth: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou (Jesus Christ) hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God (or "my God"), hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows", or as a modern English translation reads at Hebrews 1:8, 9: "But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”(New World Translation)

How could Jesus be God and yet have a God or "your God" that "anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions" ? Now, consider Hebrews 1:2, 3 that says: "Now at the end of these days (or the Jewish system of things that ended in 70 C.E.) he has spoken to us by means of a Son (Jesus Christ, in which the word "Christ" [or Messiah] means "anointed one" or one anointed by God for a special work), whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being (or mirrors God's feelings on everything), and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."(New World Translation)

How could Jesus be God and yet have "sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" ? Does God sit at his own right hand ? The apostle Peter wrote: "Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him."(1 Pet 3:21, 22)

How could Jesus be God and yet be sitting at God's right hand, so that "angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him" ? If Jesus is God, would angels and authorities and powers be made subject to him, since God has always had the angels as subject to him ?

At Hebrews 10:12, Paul says of Jesus Christ: "But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God". And at 1 Timothy 2, Paul wrote: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."(1 Tim 2:5, 6)

Again, does God sit at his own right hand ? Those who are reasonable realize that God does not sit at his own right hand, but someone of lower rank that has his favor does. And how Jesus be God and yet be a mediator between God and men ?

And at Revelation 21:7, who is speaking ? Not Jesus, but God, whose name is Jehovah (see Isa 12:2, KJV), for Revelation 21:5 says: "And the One seated on the throne said: “Look ! I am making all things new.” Remember, Jesus Christ is at Jehovah's right hand and is not sitting on the throne, so that at Revelation 21:7, it is Jehovah God that is speaking, saying: "Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son."

And yes, at Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called "Mighty God" or El Gibbohr in Hebrew, but he is not Almighty God or El Shaddai in Hebrew (see Gen 17:1), for even the angels are "mighty in power".(Ps 103:20) And even the wicked judges of Israel were called "gods".(Ps 82:1, 2; see also John 10:34, 35)

And at John 20:28, Thomas said: "My Lord and my God", but does that mean that Jesus is God ? Had you carefully read what Jesus told Mary Magdalene upon his resurrection from the dead, that "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God", you could easily see that Jesus is not God, but was ascending to "my God".(John 20:17)

And 2 Peter 1:1 does not say that Jesus is God, but rather that Peter addressed his letter "to those who have acquired a faith as precious as ours through the righteousness of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ", for had you carefully read Peter's first letter, it said at 1 Peter 1:3: "Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", you could have seen that Jehovah God is Jesus Father (and all those who exercise faith in him).

Ditto for Titus 2:13, for had you read Titus 1:4, that says: "May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior", whereby Paul makes a distinction between God and Jesus, you could have easily recognized that Jesus is not God.(Note: Titus 2:13 accurately reads: "while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ")

And being called "rock" at 1 Corinthians 10:4 does not make Jesus God, as for example Jehovah being called "Savior" at Isaiah 43:3, does not mean that someone else cannot be called "savior", for all the "judges" who saved Israel from their opposers were called "savior".(Judges 3:9; 15)

At Matthew 16:18, Peter is also called a "rock" or more accurately "a piece of the rock", for his name in Greek is Petros and means just that, for Peter was given that name by Jesus (John 1:42), and in which Peter would be like a rock in support of the new Christian congregation that came into existence on Pentecost 33 C.E.(Acts 2), taking the lead in making known Jesus as the promised Messiah to the Jews.(Gal 2:7)

At Matthew 7:24, Jesus shows that the word "rock" means something firm on which a home can be built, so that Jesus also calls himself a "rock" at Matthew 16:18, using the Greek word petra, on which the Christian congregation would be built, so that it could not be shaken from its foundation or torn apart.(see Hebrew 12:28)

 

[Guestman]

The teaching that "Jesus is fully God, fully man" has been around since Christendom came into existence in the 4th century C.E. that brought "on board" the "Holy Trinity". For those who want to believe this without a careful, unbiased examination of the Bible, go right ahead.

But for those who want to know "the truth", here are some scriptures to seriously consider:

(1) John 1:1, 2, in which it does not say that "the Word", Jesus Christ, is God, but that "the Word" is "a god", for anyone who looks at a quality Greek interlinear, such as the online interlinear Scripture4all Greek, can see that before "Word" is the definite article "the" all three times, but before "god", the definite article "the" is there only in the first and third instances, making it read accurately as "the God", but in the second instance, there is no definite article, so that it accurately reads "a god".

(2) John 14:1, that says: "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me", with Jesus making a clear distinction between himself and God, and of which, if Jesus is God, then why does he call the temple "my Father's house" and not "my house" in verse 2 ?

(3) John 14:28, whereby Jesus says to his eleven faithful apostles: "If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater ("greater", Greek meizon, meaning "larger [literally or figuratively, specially, in age"], see Matt 11:11; 23:11, 17; Luke 22:27; John 4:12) than I am". Clear as a bell, well for reasonable people, but never for those who are locked in with the Trinity.

(4) John 7:16, 17, in which Jesus tells the Jews who wondered at his great wisdom: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to Him who sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality".

Jesus again clearly distinguishes himself from God with the particle "or", saying that what he spoke was not of his own originality, as for example of the words: "Do you want the blue or red shirt", making a clear distinction between two shirts with "or".

So, how could Jesus be God and not speak of his own originality, since God is the "source of life" and tells everyone else what is right and wrong, as with the example of "the tree of knowledge of good and bad" in the garden of Eden ?(Gen 2:16, 17; Ps 36:9)

(5) John 7:28, 29, whereby Jesus tells the Jews: "You know me and you know where I am from. And I have not come of my own initiative, but the One who sent me is real, and you do not know him. I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me."("representative", Greek apostello, meaning "to send on a mission")

(6) Matthew 24:36, Jesus says: "Concerning that day and hour (of the great tribulation) nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father". How could Jesus be God and yet have no knowledge of when "the great tribulation" is to begin ?

(7) John 3:16, that says: "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." How could Jesus be God and yet be "the only-begotten Son of God", for if he is God, then why tell a lie that he is a Son, and "only-begotten" at that, for how many understand what "begotten" means ?

To have a father, as 2 Corinthians 1:3 says: "Praised be the God and Father of of our Lord Jesus Christ", or Ephesians 1:3, that says: "Praised be the God and Father of of our Lord Jesus Christ" or as 1 Peter 1:3 says: "Praised be the God and Father of of our Lord Jesus Christ". It is easily grasped that Jesus has a father, just as we all have a father that gave us life.

(8) John 4:22, in which Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that he worships God as other Jews do, saying: "You worship what you do not know; we worship (Jesus includes himself in worshipping God) what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit (and not a man of flesh and blood), and those worshipping him (and not Jesus) must worship with spirit and truth."(John 4:22-24)

(9) 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, whereby Paul writes: "We know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one. For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us (or true Christians) one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him", with Paul making a clear separation between God and Jesus.

(10) John 12:49, 50, Jesus tells the Jews: "For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment means everlasting life. So whatever I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me.” How could Jesus be God and yet ' not speak of his own initiative ' ? He couldn't say this if he was God, for that would be a lie and Jesus never lied.

(11) John 8:28, 29 in which Jesus tell the Jews: "After you have lifted up the Son of man (on a stake), then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things. And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him." How could Jesus be God and "do nothing of my own initiative" ? How could Jesus be God and be "taught" by the Father, for Isaiah 40:13, 14, shows that no one teaches God anything ?

(12) Matthew 27:42, 43, in which passersby upon seeing Jesus hanging on a stake, mockingly says: "Others he saved; himself he cannot save ! He is King of Israel; let him now come down off the torture stake, and we will believe in him. He has put his trust in God; let Him now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son." How could Jesus be God and yet "trust in God", as Hebrews 5:7 says that Jesus was "favorably heard for his godly fear" ?

(13) Hebrews 5:8, whereby Paul writes that Jesus, "although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered". How could Jesus be God and yet ' learn obedience ' to God ? Hebrews 5:10 says that Jesus "has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek". How could Jesus be God and yet be appointed by God as a high priest "in the manner of Melchizedek", and whereby Melchizedek was not God, but a mediator between God and men ?

(14) Most of 1 John 5:7, 8 in the King James Bible is spurious, so that the words: "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" are not genuine, but additions by an unscrupulous hand to give support to the Trinity.

(15) 1 Timothy 3:16 does not say according to the King James Bible: "God was manifest in the flesh", but rather that "He who (or Jesus Christ) was manifest in the flesh", for the Greek word "hos", meaning "who" is there and not "theos" or God.(Vatican 1209 manuscript of the 4th century C.E.)

Yet, with all this evidence, proofs, that Jesus is as he says, "the only-begotten Son of God", as Peter said when Jesus asked who he thought he was: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt 16:16), die-hard trinitarians will "go down with the ship of the Trinity", and they are right, for Jehovah God will see to their destruction at Armageddon.(Rev 16:16)

 

[PinSeeker]

The prophet Isaiah prophesies of John the Baptist thusly:

"A voice cries: 'In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD (Jehovah, God); make straight in the desert a highway for our God."
[Isaiah 40:3]​

And in the apostle John's gospel, we see that John the Baptist is the fulfillment of this prophecy. Of John the Baptist, the apostle says:

"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the Light, that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but came to bear witness about the Light."
[John 1:6-8]​

And then the apostle John relates the testimony of John the Baptist:

"...when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, 'Who are you?' He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, 'I am not the Christ.' And they asked him, 'What then? Are you Elijah?' He said, 'I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' And he answered, 'No.' So they said to him, 'Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?' He said, 'I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, "Make straight the way of the Lord," as the prophet Isaiah said.' (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.) They asked him, 'Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?' John answered them, 'I baptize with water, but among you stands One you do not know, even He Who comes after me, the strap of Whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.'"
[John 1:19-27)]​

Jesus is both the Son of God and the Son of Man, and as such, He is fully both God and man, both in the form of (morphe in the Greek, 'the very thing') God and in the form of (again, morphe in the Greek, 'the very thing') man (Philippians 2:5-8).

Grace and peace to all!

 

[Philip James]

How could Jesus be God and yet be appointed by God as a high priest "in the manner of Melchizedek", a

Hello Guestman,

How could Jesus be God and yet have a God or "your God" that "anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions"

How could Jesus be God and yet have "sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high"

How could Jesus be God and yet be sitting at God's right hand, so that "angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him"

how Jesus be God and yet be a mediator between God and men

why does he call the temple "my Father's house" and not "my house" in verse 2 ?

So, how could Jesus be God and not speak of his own originality

How could Jesus be God and yet have no knowledge of when "the great tribulation" is to begin ?

How could Jesus be God and "do nothing of my own initiative" ?

How could Jesus be God and be "taught" by the Father

How could Jesus be God and yet "trust in God"

How could Jesus be God and yet ' learn obedience ' to God

". How could Jesus be God and yet be appointed by God as a high priest "

How indeed!

How the Son could lay aside His Glory and become mortal flesh is indeed the mystery of the Incarnation.

Almost as difficult for our puny brains to grasp as the mystery of the Trinity.

How indeed...

Pax et Bonum

 

[Brakelite]

Agreed. He had to start somewhere. For many years, I was under the impression that his 95 Theses contained criticisms of a wide range of Catholic practices: praying to the "Mother of God" and dead Saints, Purgatory, infant baptism, the legitimacy of the Pope and his power, the belief that the elements of Communion actually turn into Christ's flesh and blood, etc. When I read it, I was somewhat disappointed that none of these practices were in there.
Corruption happens over time as we have seen in our own USA government, that began with great leaders who were godly men. As time passed, greed, lies and all sorts of corruption grew. Now America is almost ruined. The President and most of Congress are a bunch of evil dirty rags, out for their own personal gain and promoting this One World Government.
Just today I was listening to an expert economist state that Biden signed ( actually in March 2022), an executive order paving the way to convert our dollars into a digital currency. This act will transfer 40 trillion in assets of 90% to the top 1%.
The Federal Reserve has been behind manipulating the economy for their own gain and has transfered Middle Class wealth to the rich for decades. This year, we may see this biggest shift in wealth happen - not just here, but in hundreds of countries. Can you afford Bitcoin? I can't, not even one.
I think the errors of the Catholic Church are far less detrimental than this NWO is. These guys are evil workers for Satan. I don't think that of the Catholic Clergy today. No, they are for Christ, not against Him. I just think a lot of their praying is empty unless it is the Lord's prayer or a prayer addressed directly to the Father or the Son. All these other traditions/motions not in the Bible ( the 66 books that is), go out void. It's not like it invalidates their faith in Christ. Our sins are paid for - past, present and future. If they aren't, then I hope there is a Purgatory, because we would all need to go there.
Practicing evil, lies, deceptions for personal gain is not Christian. We must keep in mind that Satan sends his evil reprobates/tares into the fold to corrupt the Body. He even messes with us to cause us to stumble and go off the path.

Your post might bring peace and reassurance to some, but what if the NWO, the WEF, etc, was being run in conjunction with the Vatican, maybe even in subjection to them, and the Pope himself even now placing himself in the eyes of the world as the only viable candidate to head it up?



Augustine is held in the highest esteem with Catholicism and Protestantism, and his philosophy of establishing an earthly kingdom is held as a previous goal by many, and is in perfect harmony with the NWO.

 

[Brakelite]

The teaching that "Jesus is fully God, fully man" has been around since Christendom came into existence in the 4th century C.E. that brought "on board" the "Holy Trinity". For those who want to believe this without a careful, unbiased examination of the Bible, go right ahead.

You don't need the trinity to appreciate the truth of Jesus bring fully man and fully God. The trinity was superfluous to requirements, and the means by which the official state church established the trinity as doctrine ought to make it's supporters blush with shame.

 

[PinSeeker]

You don't need the trinity to appreciate the truth of Jesus bring fully man and fully God.

But you can't accept, much less appreciate, that Jesus is fully man and fully God and stand in disagreement with the fact that the Godhead is at least a duality ~ the Father and the Son.

The trinity was superfluous to requirements...

Requirements to appreciate that Jesus is fully man and fully God? I mean, it must be understood that God is more than one distinct Person. Jesus is very clear on this point in John 14.

...and the means by which the official state church established the trinity as doctrine ought to make it's supporters blush with shame.

The "official state church," Brakelite, merely affirmed that God is triune.

How the Son could lay aside His Glory and become mortal flesh is indeed the mystery of the Incarnation. Almost as difficult for our puny brains to grasp as the mystery of the Trinity.

Absolutely. But the truth that God is triune is not difficult to accept. We are told this truth in abundantly clear terms, most clearly by Jesus in John 14.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Brakelite]

The "official state church," Brakelite, merely affirmed that God is triune

No, it went much further than that. First, they made their understanding of scripture a test of fellowship and a test of faith. Second, their understanding of scripture included assumptions on how the unity of the Godhead operated in relation to one another. For example, it is stated in the creeds that the 3 members of the triune Godhead are eternally joined and cannot be separated. To accept this one must believe that a part of the Son was still connected to the Godhead even in death, which means He didn't fully die which affects our view of redemption. There are nuances to this that are deeper than simply believing there are 3 persons in the Godhead, or even the deity of Jesus. I accept the triune Godhead. I just don't necessarily accept the assumptions that are made in addition to that.

 

[Timtofly]

You don't need the trinity to appreciate the truth of Jesus bring fully man and fully God. The trinity was superfluous to requirements, and the means by which the official state church established the trinity as doctrine ought to make it's supporters blush with shame.

Do you think any part of you can function on it's own? What about your spirit, that you have been separated from because of sin? What about your soul without a body?

Seems to me you are still 100% body, and 100% soul, even when the body and soul are together as one. Notwithstanding Adam's dead corruptible flesh is not always functioning 100%.

You don't get a different spirit. You don't get a different soul. The only thing that changes, is a temporal body now, and a permanent body later.

The only person in your trinity that cannot operate by itself is that old man the dead corruptible flesh. Yet Jesus was quite capable to operate independently, unlike you, so why make such a big issue over this fact of life, that cannot be ignored?

The creeds may be wrong, but the time on the Cross, was when God was one being and died. You can call that wrong, because you think that God cannot die. But the Cross was the one moment in created time, there was no division of the Trinity. Jesus was not the Lamb alone. God was Himself the Lamb slain from the foundation of creation. We see the 3 separated at the baptism. But not so on the Cross. No one wrote, God was looking down on the Cross and was well pleased. Yes, the burden of sin was placed on Jesus and He was chastised for all sin, but being the Lamb was the involvement of all three as much as being Lord is the involvement of all three as one.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, it went much further than that. First, they made their understanding of scripture a test of fellowship and a test of faith.

Revisionist history. Very commonplace these days, unfortunately.

Second, their understanding of scripture included assumptions on how the unity of the Godhead operated in relation to one another. For example, it is stated in the creeds that the 3 members of the triune Godhead are eternally joined and cannot be separated. To accept this one must believe that a part of the Son was still connected to the Godhead even in death, which means He didn't fully die which affects our view of redemption.

Well, I agree that if Jesus did not "fully die" then that would certainly affect our view of redemption, but even if one accepts that the three members of the triune Godhead are eternally joined and cannot be separated, it does not necessarily follow that Jesus did not "fully die." To reach that conclusion, I think, would be to disregard Jesus's status as the second Person of the triune Jehovah, which cannot be done. I know that's not your intent... or is it? At any rate, yes, it cannot be done.

I accept the triune Godhead.
Great!

Grace and peace to you.