No More Death

[Timtofly]

The majority in the Church age do not believe or keep the literal Sabbath Day, the seventh day.
So, if God Himself is following the 7 day x 1000 year theory of 1000 years of rest for Christians, as well as for the earth, most professing Christians HAVE BEEN out of sorts with Him, by keeping Sunday holy.
So why are PreMils being hypocritical by not keeping Saturday as the sabbath?

I never said there was a 7 thousand year life span according to the Sabbath, and week of creation. There will be 8,000 years in this creation, not 7,000. There was only a 6,000 year punishment given to Adam's offspring.

The millennium is not even for the church. The church has been removed from earth, and physically enjoying Paradise, where the tree of life is. They have been there since 30AD. They are not coming back at the Second Coming. They won't be back until the next reality, in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

Who was Jesus talking to?
The Jews.
I already gave you the scripture about it. Either you don't comprehend it or you are in complete denial.
Edit:
Maybe you read through that verse too fast.
Mat. 13:34-35
34. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

In that parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, you have not yet provided an answer, as to what the singular truth is, that Jesus pointed to.

Not everything in Matthew Jesus said was a parable. Besides, the account we are talking about is in Luke.

 

[Earburner]

You changed Paul's writing about the man of sin from singular to plural and inserted sinners in place of the singular man of sin. You changed other parts like "shewing himself that he is God." to "showing themselves that they are god of their life"

You are adding to and taking away from scripture. You literally have re-written scripture into your own new and false creation.

I should say not! Much of NT prophecy and Revelation is symbolic,
1. being subject to manifestations on earth.

2. If not on earth,
then the symbols are subject to manifestations in heaven.

3. If not in heaven or on earth, then the symbols are subject to manifestations by His Spirit.

4. But, if the manifestations are not subject to any one of those three, then the symbols are subject to manifestations that are spiritual and therefore are unable to be perceived, seen or known by our human mind,.......UNTIL
, 5. God reveals the manifestions to us, according to the symbols He used,
for all of it is spiritually discerned.

1 Cor. 2[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 14
[29] And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

We must interpret the symbol language that God the Father uses in Revelation, through "the mind of Christ", and NOT the mind of our "natural man", aka "the man of sin".

 

[Earburner]

Not everything in Matthew Jesus said was a parable. Besides, the account we are talking about is in Luke.

No, Mat. 13:34 is the correct scripture I referenced. Evidently you didn't read it, or you don't comprehend it.
[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

 

[Earburner]

I never said there was a 7 thousand year life span according to the Sabbath, and week of creation. There will be 8,000 years in this creation, not 7,000. There was only a 6,000 year punishment given to Adam's offspring.

The millennium is not even for the church. The church has been removed from earth, and physically enjoying Paradise, where the tree of life is. They have been there since 30AD. They are not coming back at the Second Coming. They won't be back until the next reality, in the New Jerusalem.

Ok, so after Jesus returns, who is going to be living on the earth for another 1000 years? Unsaved people, who then would have no offer or hope of God's plan of salvation?

 

[Timtofly]

No, Mat. 13:34 is the correct scripture I referenced. Evidently you didn't read it, or you don't comprehend it.
[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

That was describing the way Matthew presented Jesus. Yet even in Matthew, Jesus explained to His disciples in private the clear meaning of those parables. You can stay with those lost Jews and see only the parables, and then, like them make up your own reasoning and call that truth. But you would be stuck in the "them" crowd.

Your verses declare it was the lost multitude that needed the parables.

Your verses do not prove the record of Lazarus going to Abraham's bosom is a parable. In Luke 16 Jesus was speaking to His disciples, and the Pharisees overheard the conversation. Jesus was not just telling a story to throw the Pharisees a spiritual truth. Jesus was deriding them in return how they were rich, yet have nothing. He explained to them just what it meant to go to sheol and have nothing to show for all their self righteousness on earth. He then later called Lazarus out of his grave. The Pharisees knew at that point they were in great trouble. Jesus not only explained what happens after physical death, but proved there was also a physical resurrection. Instead of confirming along with Jesus, their own doctrine, they rejected Jesus even more.

You are not even paying attention to all of Matthew 13:

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

"And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying,"

I never stated nor implied Jesus did not speak only in parables to the multitude. Jesus spoke many things but not all things to the multitude in parables. Every time Jesus spoke was not a parable, but many times to the multitude it was in parables.

The parables were for the sole benefit of the multitude because they were not supposed to know all the mysteries of God.

Abraham's bosom was not a mystery from the foundation of the world. You are refuting your own point. If it was a Jewish fictional story, it would not be a parable, according to your own argument that a parable was supposed to be a mystery. I am not even saying Jesus invented the term on the spot when he replied to the Pharisees. Both Jesus and His disciples along with the Pharisees would have known what Jesus was saying. Even if that was the only time it was ever recorded in the NT.

I am not even arguing that Luke and Matthew were written to different audiences with totally different perspectives. No one should have to explain what was meant by Abraham's bosom either way. Certainly Luke was not associating the pagan afterlife with a Scriptural truth. But the Hebrews of the first century would have understood Abraham's bosom, even if the Gentiles did not, and it seems many today still don't understand. Why would Jesus use fiction to refute the Pharisees?

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, so after Jesus returns, who is going to be living on the earth for another 1000 years? Unsaved people, who then would have no offer or hope of God's plan of salvation?

The firstfruits of the final harvest. Those Jesus chooses after the church is removed from the earth. In Matthew 13, the wheat. In Mathhew 25 the sheep. They are the firstfruits. The 144k are the firstfruits. This is after the Second Coming and after the fulness of the Gentiles has been completed at the moment of the Second Coming.

After the 6th Seal, no one should use the terms Christian nor the New Covenant of grace. Just like the Cross put an end to the OT, the Second Coming puts an end to the NT. Those chosen directly by Jesus from those alive on earth will be changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh immediately. But it is not their choice. It is God's choice.

Some parables in Scripture that Jesus gave did not apply to the OT nor the NT. Jesus was still talking about His earthly kingdom. Not even the firstfruits of the NT, His own disciples understood all that would happen while being with Jesus 24/7. That would only be revealed after the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost. Just applying all that Jesus taught onto the NT church in broad general sweeping comments is unwise.

No one is "saved" nor "made into Christians" in the Millennium. No one is still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. No one will bring sin into the world like Adam did.

 

[Earburner]

That was describing the way Matthew presented Jesus. Yet even in Matthew, Jesus explained to His disciples in private the clear meaning of those parables. You can stay with those lost Jews and see only the parables, and then, like them make up your own reasoning and call that truth. But you would be stuck in the "them" crowd.

Your verses declare it was the lost multitude that needed the parables.

Your verses do not prove the record of Lazarus going to Abraham's bosom is a parable. In Luke 16 Jesus was speaking to His disciples, and the Pharisees overheard the conversation. Jesus was not just telling a story to throw the Pharisees a spiritual truth. Jesus was deriding them in return how they were rich, yet have nothing. He explained to them just what it meant to go to sheol and have nothing to show for all their self righteousness on earth. He then later called Lazarus out of his grave. The Pharisees knew at that point they were in great trouble. Jesus not only explained what happens after physical death, but proved there was also a physical resurrection. Instead of confirming along with Jesus, their own doctrine, they rejected Jesus even more.

You are not even paying attention to all of Matthew 13:

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

"And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying,"

I never stated nor implied Jesus did not speak only in parables to the multitude. Jesus spoke many things but not all things to the multitude in parables. Every time Jesus spoke was not a parable, but many times to the multitude it was in parables.

The parables were for the sole benefit of the multitude because they were not supposed to know all the mysteries of God.

Abraham's bosom was not a mystery from the foundation of the world. You are refuting your own point. If it was a Jewish fictional story, it would not be a parable, according to your own argument that a parable was supposed to be a mystery. I am not even saying Jesus invented the term on the spot when he replied to the Pharisees. Both Jesus and His disciples along with the Pharisees would have known what Jesus was saying. Even if that was the only time it was ever recorded in the NT.

I am not even arguing that Luke and Matthew were written to different audiences with totally different perspectives. No one should have to explain what was meant by Abraham's bosom either way. Certainly Luke was not associating the pagan afterlife with a Scriptural truth. But the Hebrews of the first century would have understood Abraham's bosom, even if the Gentiles did not, and it seems many today still don't understand. Why would Jesus use fiction to refute the Pharisees?

Jesus KNEW that the Pharisees were hearing his teaching to the disciples. Teaching through parables, is a very constructive way to speak to others indirectly, when the audience you are speaking directly to, is in a public area.
You and I are doing that right now.
Our conversation here is being directed towards each other, but indirectly, it is being listened to by others.

Now, in the parable of the Rm&L, what was the single truth that Jesus wanted ALL to know? Please answer the question.

 

[Earburner]

The firstfruits of the final harvest. Those Jesus chooses after the church is removed from the earth. In Matthew 13, the wheat. In Mathhew 25 the sheep. They are the firstfruits. The 144k are the firstfruits. This is after the Second Coming and after the fulness of the Gentiles has been completed at the moment of the Second Coming.

The 144,000 is symbolic of all of Israel who were of faith, being under the altar of the OC. All of such, by faith, were looking for "the Promise" that was to come, who is Jesus.

Their names were written in the "Book of, Remembrance" in Malachi 3:16.

Because the Holy Spirit of God Himself was not yet given to them, none of them had received the permanent gift of God's Holy Spirit, though He would visit them often.
But, after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus (the Firstborn from the dead), in Rev. 6:9-11 we see God doing so, by the symbolism of "white robes" being given to each one, thus having their "names written in the Lamb's Book of Life" also, which is just a symbolic way of saying that they now have the gift of eternal life, and are in Jesus, aka the KoG. 1 John 5:12-13.
To be IN Jesus, IS to be IN the KoG.

Yes! They, who were Israel of faith, are the first fruits. Rev. 14:1-5

 

[ewq1938]

The 144,000 is symbolic of all of Israel who were of faith, being under the altar of the OC.

No, the 144k are exactly 12k of each tribe that received the seal of God before the GT of Rev 11 and 13 began.

 

[Earburner]

No, the 144k are exactly 12k of each tribe that received the seal of God before the GT of Rev 11 and 13 began.

Regardless of how Paul thought about his fellow countrymen by the mind of his "natural man", he was very clear by "the mind of Christ" that in this Age of God's Grace, through His Son, we ALL are now under the NC, in which there is no difference between Jew and Gentile before God.

Ever since 70AD, Israel is NO LONGER under the "wing" of God's favoritism or protection.
The 70 week prophecy was "determined" upon "THY [Daniel's] people", and was fulfilled by Jesus in His first manifestation in the flesh, and then concluded it by His second manifestation through His Spirit.

All 70 weeks have been accounted for as being past.
"And he [Jesus] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [7 years]". The first half of the week was while He was in the flesh, then the latter half was by His Spirit, through the Early church.

Jesus fulfilled all of that which is in verse 27, and especially that which was "determined" in verse 24.
27. "....and that "determined" [in verse 24] shall be poured upon the desolate".- see Acts 2:16-21, specifically verse 18, also see Acts 10:45.

 

[ewq1938]

Regardless of how Paul thought about his fellow countrymen by the mind of his "natural man", he was very clear by "the mind of Christ" that in this Age of God's Grace, through His Son, we ALL are now under the NC, in which there is no difference between Jew and Gentile before God.

That is not evidence to dismiss that 144k of the tribes of Israel shall receive the seal of God.

 

[Earburner]

That is not evidence to dismiss that 144k of the tribes of Israel shall receive the seal of God.

No, they who were Israel, and died having faith in "the Promise to come" (Jesus), already did receive "the seal of God"*, after His resurrection, being that of God's Holy Spirit. Mal. 3:16 and Rev. 6:9-11.

* Note:
1 Cor. 1
[22] Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph. 1
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph. 4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Your understanding about who the 144,000 are, is derived from the theory of "the missing week" in Dan. 9:24-27.

 

[Earburner]

That was describing the way Matthew presented Jesus. Yet even in Matthew, Jesus explained to His disciples in private the clear meaning of those parables. You can stay with those lost Jews and see only the parables, and then, like them make up your own reasoning and call that truth. But you would be stuck in the "them" crowd.

Your verses declare it was the lost multitude that needed the parables.

Your verses do not prove the record of Lazarus going to Abraham's bosom is a parable. In Luke 16 Jesus was speaking to His disciples, and the Pharisees overheard the conversation. Jesus was not just telling a story to throw the Pharisees a spiritual truth. Jesus was deriding them in return how they were rich, yet have nothing. He explained to them just what it meant to go to sheol and have nothing to show for all their self righteousness on earth. He then later called Lazarus out of his grave. The Pharisees knew at that point they were in great trouble. Jesus not only explained what happens after physical death, but proved there was also a physical resurrection. Instead of confirming along with Jesus, their own doctrine, they rejected Jesus even more.

You are not even paying attention to all of Matthew 13:

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

"And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying,"

I never stated nor implied Jesus did not speak only in parables to the multitude. Jesus spoke many things but not all things to the multitude in parables. Every time Jesus spoke was not a parable, but many times to the multitude it was in parables.

The parables were for the sole benefit of the multitude because they were not supposed to know all the mysteries of God.

Abraham's bosom was not a mystery from the foundation of the world. You are refuting your own point. If it was a Jewish fictional story, it would not be a parable, according to your own argument that a parable was supposed to be a mystery. I am not even saying Jesus invented the term on the spot when he replied to the Pharisees. Both Jesus and His disciples along with the Pharisees would have known what Jesus was saying. Even if that was the only time it was ever recorded in the NT.

I am not even arguing that Luke and Matthew were written to different audiences with totally different perspectives. No one should have to explain what was meant by Abraham's bosom either way. Certainly Luke was not associating the pagan afterlife with a Scriptural truth. But the Hebrews of the first century would have understood Abraham's bosom, even if the Gentiles did not, and it seems many today still don't understand. Why would Jesus use fiction to refute the Pharisees?

To get more to the point of what Jesus said, here is Abraham's bosom: Malachi 3:16, and here is the fulfilment, soon after Jesus' resurrection: Rev. 6:9-11
Abraham's bosom was a term used by the Jews of faith, who were waiting for "the Promise to come". Mary stated her hope in seeing her brother Lazarus in the resurrection of the dead.
And, what was Jesus answer? "I AM the resurrection". John 11:25.

Please go find His singular truth that He wants ALL to know in the parable of the Rm&L. Luke 16:31.

 

[ewq1938]

No, they who were Israel, and died having faith in "the Promise to come" (Jesus), already did receive "the seal of God"*, after His resurrection, being that of God's Holy Spirit. Mal. 3:16 and Rev. 6:9-11.

The seal of God in Rev is not what other scriptures are talking about. The timeframe is near the start of the GT not centuries ago. Each tribe is mentioned! Christians don't have tribes like that for being Christians.

Your understanding about who the 144,000 are, is derived from the theory of "the missing week" in Dan. 9:24-27.

No, it's from reading what Rev says about them and when it occurs.

 

[Earburner]

The seal of God in Rev is not what other scriptures are talking about. The timeframe is near the start of the GT not centuries ago. Each tribe is mentioned! Christians don't have tribes like that for being Christians.

Oh, so the Jews don't need Jesus, whether that be OC or NC.
Rom. 8
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So then, how did the Jews of the OC enter into the KoG, without faith in Jesus, the Lamb of God, and His shed blood?
What seal did they receive, that was better than the sacrifice of Jesus and the permanent abiding of God's Holy Spirit?

 

[Earburner]

No, it's from reading what Rev says about them and when it occurs.

In Rev. 14 From where were the 144,000 coming from, when John saw them?
Rev. 14
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
1 Cor. 15
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.See Rev. 6:9-11.

 

[ewq1938]

Oh, so the Jews don't need Jesus, whether that be OC or NC.

Whoever taught you that doesn't understand scripture.

 

[Earburner]

The seal of God in Rev is not what other scriptures are talking about. The timeframe is near the start of the GT not centuries ago. Each tribe is mentioned! Christians don't have tribes like that for being Christians.

You are the one telling me that the 144 000 have a different seal, than that of what the "great multitude" have (Rev. 7:9), which is the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.

And so I ask you: how did the 144,000 enter into Sion (the KoG) without being under the shed blood of the Lamb, having been also given the seal of God's Holy Spirit (white robes)? In my opinion, without the gift of God's Holy Spirit, no one enters into the KoG.
John 3:3-8, Rom. 8:8-9.

The 144,000 are with the Lord Jesus NOW, in the presence of God's throne, BEFORE John sees "the great multitude" appear. In other words, the 144,000 chosen of OC Israel are already there with God, and are "resting in Jesus a little season, until their brethren and fellow servants ["the great multitude"] should also be killed as they were". The symbolic, chosen 144 000 of OC Israel, were under the altar (under the OC, the "book of Remembrance" Malachi 3:16), and were given the seal of God (his Holy Spirit) at the time of Jesus' resurrection.
Rev. 6:9-11.
Today, ever since Pentecost, we who come to Jesus, while alive, still having breath, are each members of "the great multitude".

These 144,000, of OC Israel, are they who God brings with Him, in the Day of Jesus' Glorious return.

 

[ewq1938]

You are the one telling me that the 144 000 have a different seal, than that of what the "great multitude" have (Rev. 7:9), which is the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit.

The seal of the 144k is something given to them because of the GT.

And so I ask you: how did the 144,000 enter into Sion (the KoG) without being under the shed blood of the Lamb,

This is an incorrect assumption on your part. No one inherits the kingdom without being saved in Christ.

The 144,000 are with the Lord Jesus NOW, in the presence of God's throne, BEFORE John sees "the great multitude" appear. In other words, the 144,000 chosen of OC Israel are already there with God,

Nothing in the bible supports any of that. We are shown that they are with Christ on a mountain that is located near Jerusalem. This is clearly post-second coming.

and are "resting in Jesus a little season, until their brethren and fellow servants ["the great multitude"] should also be killed as they were". The symbolic, chosen 144 000 of OC Israel, were under the altar (under the OC, the "book of Remembrance" Malachi 3:16), and were given the seal of God (his Holy Spirit) at the time of Jesus' resurrection.

Nothing in the bible supports a symbolic definition of the 144k. They are exactly as described, 144k people from the 12 tribes.