No-one has gone to heaven?

[Earburner]

Your statement here is contradictory, on the one hand you claim John 3:18; 1 John 5:12, 13 and Romans 8:8, 9 speak “vehemently” against the idea that every man must be tested before receiving eternal life.

And then you quote Matt 24:24 (?) and John 10:28, 29 as “Proof of being eternally saved, for all who are tried.”

So which is it, do you or don’t you believe every man must be tested before receiving eternal life?

I already know of what I believe, and I truthfully reported it as such when I quoted 1 John 5:12-13.
Now, if you can comprehend that, then you will know also that His Gift of Eternal Life is freely given before there is any trial of one's faith.
And since that is the truth, Matthew 24:24 and John 10:27-29 is His promise.

 

[Earburner]

You placed a (?) After my quote of Matthew 24:24.
Why? Is it because you don't understand the verse?
Here it is from the KJV:[ 24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

> "if it were possible", meaning that IT'S NOT POSSIBLE to deceive "Born Again Christians".
Which verifies what I also did quote in John 10:28-29 (meant to include 27).

 

[Renniks]

That's my point! True born again Christians cannot "fall away" from faith! They ARE the Wheat. All others are Tares.
Romans 8:8-9 explains it completely!
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Only the warnings are for believers, not for posers. You can't fall away from something you never had.

 

[Earburner]

Only the warnings are for believers, not for posers. You can't fall away from something you never had.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, we are being informed that the Day of the Lord shall not come, *except there come a falling away first,...
> That event of "a falling away" is not relative to Born Again Christians, but rather to the world as a whole.

Jesus said this: Luke 18[8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
> The faith that He is talking about is the faith that is required in order to come to repentance towards God. If one does not have at least that level of faith, they sense no need to repent!
We can read that in
Hebrews 11[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So then, "a falling away" is not about the "saving faith" that Born Again Christians are given, but rather the simple faith to believe that God is.

The cause of the dilemma of "a falling away" is now in the world, being those "theories" that speculate on "Evolution" , "The Big Bang" and a host of other assorted false beliefs, such as: "intelligent life on other planets", not to mention the false time warp that is assigned to the age of fossils.

Note:
*The word "except" (KJV) is ideally suited for that verse, instead of the word "until".
By using "except", it prevents any interpretation for the use of "time", as a criteria to determine the Day of the Lord's return. Therefore, the expectation for His return, is not to be measured by time, but rather in the lack of faith among people in general, to believe that God is.

 

[Renniks]

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, we are being informed that the Day of the Lord shall not come, *except there come a falling away first,...
> That event of "a falling away" is not relative to Born Again Christians, but rather to the world as a whole.

Jesus said this: Luke 18[8] I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
> The faith that He is talking about is the faith that is required in order to come to repentance towards God. If one does not have at least that level of faith, they sense no need to repent!
We can read that in
Hebrews 11[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So then, "a falling away" is not about the "saving faith" that Born Again Christians are given, but rather the simple faith to believe that God is.

The cause of the dilemma of "a falling away" is now in the world, being those "theories" that speculate on "Evolution" , "The Big Bang" and a host of other assorted false beliefs, such as: "intelligent life on other planets", not to mention the false time warp that is assigned to the age of fossils.

Note:
*The word "except" (KJV) is ideally suited for that verse, instead of the word "until".
By using "except", it prevents any interpretation for the use of "time", as a criteria to determine the Day of the Lord's return. Therefore, the expectation for His return, is not to be measured by time, but rather in the lack of faith among people in general, to believe that God is.

"the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"

" Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God."

 

[Earburner]

"the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,"

" Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God."

Yes, its always about belief or unbelief, aka having faith as opposed to not having faith.
Hebrews 3[18] And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not. Matthew 11:28-30 and John 3:5-7.

I do understand the perspective that you are attempting to deliver, but it is not applied to those who are "born again" of His Holy Spirit.
Mere "believers" are counted as brethren, because of the simple faith that they profess.
However, until they confess openly/publicly that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, and are baptized by water and of the Holy Spirit, their faith is only that of a mere belief that God is, which is not evidence of their salvation through the Lord Jesus.

Within the churches, there are many who attend and do appear to believe in God, but they don't have faith to come to Him, in repentance through Jesus.
It is that level of faith that is subject to hardness of heart through sin, which causes a person to "fall away" from having faith in the Living God.

[19] So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Iows, they could not enter into the KoG through the new spiritual birth by His Holy Spirit, aka being "born again". Hence the reasoning of the Holy Spirit through Paul: Romans 8:9 "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We see this situation of people believing in Jesus, but as yet HAD NOT received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, which SEALS a believer unto the Day of redemption. Acts 19:1-6 Ephesians 4:30
[1] And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
[2] He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[3] And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
[4] Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
[5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[Renniks]

Mere "believers" are counted as brethren, because of the simple faith that they profess.
However, until they confess openly/publicly that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, and are baptized by water and of the Holy Spirit, their faith is only that of a mere belief that God is, which is not evidence of their salvation through the Lord Jesus.

This is obviously not what the Word means by believers. You are in the faith or you aren't, there's no halfway.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I already know of what I believe, and I truthfully reported it as such when I quoted 1 John 5:12-13.
Now, if you can comprehend that, then you will know also that His Gift of Eternal Life is freely given before there is any trial of one's faith.

Sorry my friend but there's no scriptural support for the belief that God gives eternal life to anyone prior to them having been tried, proven and found faithful. If our Lord had to be tried and proven before he received eternal life what makes you think you don't?

The word of the Lord is, "Be thou faithful until death (and then) I will give you the crown of life." (Rev 2:20)

This faithfulness must be tried, tested, proven, clear down to the end of life's journey.

 

[Earburner]

This is obviously not what the Word means by believers. You are in the faith or you aren't, there's no halfway.

You are absolutely correct!! Either a believer in Jesus has the Holy Spirit or he does not!
Romans 8:9

That is what the parable of the Wheat and Tares is adressing! The "servants" (churches) are not able to discern who is who, and therefore are told to do no "weeding". All of that will be taken care of in the end, when the "Tares" will "gathered in bundles" (through the MoB) to be burned, with graves of them being included (LoF).

 

[Earburner]

Sorry my friend but there's no scriptural support for the belief that God gives eternal life to anyone prior to them having been tried, proven and found faithful. If our Lord had to be tried and proven before he received eternal life what makes you think you don't?

ETERNAL LIFE IS FREELY GIVEN TO ALL who are born again of His Holy Spirit! God GAVE because He loves us!! John 3:16.
Are you in the habit of earning a gift from those that love you? Do you go over and clean up their yard on a very hot day, in hope that they will bring a gift to you? And if not, do you then clean and wax their car, hoping that will do it?
No one is deserving of Eternal Life by what they say, do or prove!

 

[Renniks]

You are absolutely correct!! Either a believer in Jesus has the Holy Spirit or he does not!
Romans 8:9

That is what the parable of the Wheat and Tares is adressing! The "servants" (churches) are not able to discern who is who, and therefore are told to do no "weeding". All of that will be taken care of in the end, when the "Tares" will "gathered in bundles" (through the MoB) to be burned, with graves of them being included (LoF).

As I said before, there are verses talking about fake Christians, but the verses about falling away aren't about false Christians, they are about people who once were truly converted and fell into false teachings or outright unbelief.

 

[Earburner]

As I said before, there are verses talking about fake Christians, but the verses about falling away aren't about false Christians, they are about people who once were truly converted and fell into false teachings or outright unbelief.

Sorry, I don't agree with that for one minute!
The falling away will be about false christians. The MoB will be the tool that shall "gather them in bundles". This will not be about apostasy at a local church, a particular denomination. Its going to be apostasy on a global scale.
Those that shall fall away from faith, will be because they were never "sealed" (saved/preserved) by the Holy Spirit.
There is no INTERNAL indwelling of God to keep them from the hour of them being tried. They will succumb to the temptation!

So then, what is it that shall securely keep the born again christian from falling away in that hour?
Ans. The indwelling of His Holy Spirit!

Rev. 3[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Eph. 4[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[Renniks]

Eph. 4[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If you can grieve the Spirit, you can become unsealed by rejecting him.
" how much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ..."

This is talking about people that were sanctified, and then profane the one who saved them.

 

[Earburner]

If you can grieve the Spirit, you can become unsealed by rejecting him.
" how much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ..."

This is talking about people that were sanctified, and then profane the one who saved them.

I am talking about people who profess to be Christians, who have a form of godliness (Tares), but deny the power thereof . 2 Timothy 3:1-5.
They appear to be Christians among US who ARE born again!

But now, you are speaking of those who blaspheme (speak evil) against the Holy Spirit, of which there is never forgiveness. Mark 3:28. That situation is not new. It has been going on since after Pentecost.

Without a doubt, Born again Christians will be tempted to take the mark of the Beast. All of such, that do take the MoB, will have the same judgment of "never forgiveness", as those in the past who have literally blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
Yes! A person who is "sealed"/saved, who doesn't want to remain as sealed/saved, and therefore chooses to not dwell in Him through faith, will depart from the Living God, when subjected to that temptation, that shall come upon ALL the world to try them.

 

[Renniks]

I am talking about people who profess to be Christians, who have a form of godliness (Tares), but deny the power thereof . 2 Timothy 3:1-5.
They appear to be Christians among US who ARE born again!

But now, you are speaking of those who blaspheme (speak evil) against the Holy Spirit, of which there is never forgiveness. Mark 3:28. That situation is not new. It has been going on since after Pentecost.

Without a doubt, Born again Christians will be tempted to take the mark of the Beast. All of such, that do take the MoB, will have the same judgment of "never forgiveness", as those in the past who have literally blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
Yes! A person who is "sealed"/saved, who doesn't want to remain as sealed/saved, and therefore chooses to not dwell in Him through faith, will depart from the Living God, when subjected to that temptation, that shall come upon ALL the world to try them.

So, now the falling away isn't only false Christians? Which is what I was trying to explain all along...

 

[Earburner]

So, now the falling away isn't only false Christians? Which is what I was trying to explain all along...

Not so fast! I am still convinced that born again christians, who do walk in faith, cannot be decieved, according to Jesus' promise in Matthew 24[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[Renniks]

Not so fast! I am still convinced that born again christians, who do walk in faith, cannot be decieved, according to Jesus' promise in Matthew 24[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

"Without a doubt, Born again Christians will be tempted to take the mark of the Beast. All of such, that do take the MoB, will have the same judgment of "never forgiveness", as those in the past who have literally blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
Yes! A person who is "sealed"/saved, who doesn't want to remain as sealed/saved, and therefore chooses to not dwell in Him through faith, will depart from the Living God, when subjected to that temptation, that shall come upon ALL the world to try them."

You are now directly contradicting your own posts.

 

[Earburner]

"Without a doubt, Born again Christians will be tempted to take the mark of the Beast. All of such, that do take the MoB, will have the same judgment of "never forgiveness", as those in the past who have literally blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
Yes! A person who is "sealed"/saved, who doesn't want to remain as sealed/saved, and therefore chooses to not dwell in Him through faith, will depart from the Living God, when subjected to that temptation, that shall come upon ALL the world to try them."

You are now directly contradicting your own posts.

You think that to be so, because you believe that a person must be tried/tested first, in order to be saved! Thats why you think I am contradicting myself. I posted before that no one deserves His free Gift of eternal life, no matter what they say, do or try to prove. Its all by his Grace!

 

[Renniks]

You think that to be so, because you believe that a person must be tried/tested first, in order to be saved! Thats why you think I am contradicting myself. I posted before that no one deserves His free Gift of eternal life, no matter what they say, do or try to prove. Its all by his Grace!

Where did I say a person has to be tried and tested first, in order to be saved? Of course, it's all by grace, but we can certainly reject his grace, both before and after salvation. Otherwise, all warning to believers about falling into false teachings or falling away are pointless.

 

[Earburner]

1. Where did I say a person has to be tried and tested first, in order to be saved?

2. Of course, it's all by grace, but we can certainly reject his grace, both before and after salvation. Otherwise, all warning to believers about falling into false teachings or falling away are pointless.

1. You said: "all men have been saved from the Adamic curse which resides upon them all, this however does not guarantee eternal salvation to any, that will be dependent upon the individual themselves when tried."
> No one is saved from the Adamic curse (AC), until they believe in Jesus unto salvation. Only then are they saved/sealed
According to John 3:18, A sealed believer is no longer under condemnation (AC). However the unbeliever is condemned already and remains under the AC, because they do not believe in Him unto salvation. Therefore, salvation from the AC is only reckoned to a sealed believer, before they are tried in their faith.
However, should a sealed believer then fall away, that would be blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, as shown in Hebrews 10:29.
As for those who only profess a belief in Jesus, and have not been "made partakers of the divine nature" (sealed), their falling away is not unto the second death, because they still remain as condemned already.
"Many are called, but few chosen", iows-
There are many that do profess Jesus, in comparison to the few who are sealed in Jesus, which is revealed in Romans 8:9.

So, There are many among us who do not have the Holy Spirit of God. Though they profess the name of Jesus. They "are none of His".
These are they that shall "fall away", as shown in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 and Luke 18:8.

2. Remember, due to outside persuasion by the deception of false prophets etc. Jesus said that it is not possible for them **who are sealed, that they should be deceived.
However, should such a sealed believer choose by their own volition, to no longer walk in Christ, it is then that they will have fallen away.

**Note: "the very elect"