Who are you talking to? I'm not Mormon. And Jesus is God incarnate.
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Wow, I didn't realize it was a female mouth those uncalled for insults were spewing from.
Paul's words about being absent from the lord was his wishing he could be finished with being persecuted, jailed and beaten and just get his reward in Jesus's forthcoming Kingdom on Earth.
We are spiritual while alive but on death all our thoughts perish - so how will we know anything?
VictoryinJesus
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the Son said to the Father “a body you have prepared Me”. “Because you see God can’t die.” but lowered himself in the likeness of sinful flesh. Isn’t that the point where ever His Spirit is there is Life? The Spirit being that which gives life, even called “life giving” “life quickening”.
“not himself” is this not Him sending Himself by His Spirit. how else shall any of the Sons of God be resurrected into Life if not by the Life quickening—life giving power of the Spirit sent...not to condemn but to save?
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For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
VictoryinJesus
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crucified with Christ: our thoughts perish. Not an evil thing for our thoughts and ways which lead to death to perish. John 8:22-23 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. [23] And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I don't know, I think Paul meant exactly what he wrote.
He preferred to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Are you thinking this was idle fantasy, that Paul knew that he would know nothing after death?
Much love!
VictoryinJesus
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The curses, sin and death are our ways and our thoughts which are destroyed being wicked. Being born of the Father of lies and cursing and poison going about accusing the brethren. but rather be born of God who brings forth blessings and cuts off (destroys) overcomes the curse.
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VictoryinJesus
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bull. To be found and remembered in Him. It is not an ugly thing for God to say to that worker of iniquity in us all, crucified...depart, I never knew you. That being what is “forgotten” and “remembered no more”; not that which is born of God and alive unto Him which He says remains not to be removed. A remembrance come up before God is even the prayers of His Sons.
Scratching my head here. The Bible is where we get our concept of heaven... not from pagans.
Death will not separate us from God if we are saved.
All it does is remove the physical barrier and allow us to experience Him fully.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Then why did Jesus say they do?
- 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven…
- Mat 6:19 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal
- Mat 6:20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
- Luke 6:23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven…
- Luke 15:7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
- Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself.
Harvest 1874
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Judgement does indeed begin with the house of God, it began with its Head our Lord Jesus Christ and has continued to take place amongst his true followers (the saints) all these past 2000 plus years, such are presently on trial for life or death while the rest of mankind will come into judgement (experience their trial) in the next age to see if they are worthy of eternal life.
There is however another judgement of the house of God, taking place at this time, and in fact it already has taken place and the verdict rendered, it is the judgement of the nominally professing house, the church nominal, Babylon the Great. She has already been declared fallen and now only awaits her final destruction in the great time of trouble shortly coming.
As for the statement, "Some men's sins are open, going beforehand to judgment, and others they follow after.” (1 Tim. 5:24)
This is to say, there are people who do wrong and receive promptly the punishment for their wrong course (their sins open going before unto judgement). Thus they have opportunity of improving upon the past. The very elect have all their sins up for judgement beforehand, before the general judgement time of the world. They are on trial in this present time and have all their sins atoned for and expiated.
Then there are the others those who seem to do well in this life, seem to prosper in earthly things; their eyes stand out with fatness; they seem to go unheeded in their wrong course, down to the very tomb. (Psa 73:3-12)
Will these escape retribution?
We answer, "No." In the Day of Judgment they will get their lesson. In that Day of trial they will have much more difficulty than will those who have learned lessons from the tribulations of the present life. A man who has practiced evil will require severe discipline (corrections, stripes) before he will learn that the customs of the past will no longer be allowed. Since in the New Order there will be nothing allowed to hinder it, his course in this life, therefore, will then receive retribution, in the sense that it will be the result of his wrong condition, the condition or character in which he is presently building upon. Some men have spent their lives sowing to corruption while others have worked to better their character.
As for your mention of John 14:2-3 and how that relates to the subject at hand I don’t know, but what it means is this:
“In My Father’s house (kingdom) are many mansions (dwellings, conditions or levels of existence); if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for YOU (a new abode or dwelling place, one which previously did not exist, a dwelling place for the over-comers of this Gospel age, the “little flock”). And if I go (ascend into the heavens) and prepare a place for you, I will come again (return at the appointed time, Acts 3:19-21), and receive you to myself; that where I am (the place I have been preparing for you), there you may be also.”
You ask: Is our Lord still in the grave?
Heavens No! He ascended on high 40 days after his resurrection and has remained there all this time until the appointed time for his return.
Harvest 1874
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Harvest 1874
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None of these verses you quoted imply that immediately upon death you go to heaven, where do you get this idea?
Confusion on this issue is to be laid at the feet of the blind guides of Christendom, ministers who preach of the resurrection on Sunday and then on Tuesday while giving a eulogy for one of the dearly departed adds to the confusion when attempting to comfort the decease loves ones by stating that the departed has gone to a better place that he or she is presently with Jesus looking down from heaven.
Yet just two days ago on Sunday he spoke of the resurrection and that when the Lord comes (future tense) he will call and all that are in their graves will awaken and come forth.
How then is it that there are some who can skip right past the resurrection and go directly to heaven?
The scriptures are quite clear that there is to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust alike, so which category does the departed one fall into if he skirts right by the resurrection?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Enoch111 said:
Paradise is no longer on earth, and will not return to earth. It is in Heaven -- the "third heaven", where the New Jerusalem is located.[/Quote\]
The context indicates that the “paradise” mentioned at 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is not a physical paradise on earth. However, many passages in the Bible prove that God will restore a literal Paradise to our earth.
The fact is that the first Paradise humans experienced was literal. Adam and Eve lived in a beautiful park, or garden, which is the basic meaning of the Hebrew, Greek and Persian words rendered paradise. They had the prospect of endless life in happiness and good health in that Paradise. Yet they lost that earthly Paradise when they rebelled and sinned, leading God to expel them from the garden of Eden.
Where does that leave us, now and for the future? There certainly is no evidence of our planet’s now being turned into a paradise. Rather, pollution and destruction abound. (Revelation 11:18) Still, it is inconceivable that God’s purpose for the earth to be a global Paradise will fail; what he starts, he finishes. To this end he sent his Son to provide a ransom, thus laying the groundwork for our sins to be forgiven and the imperfection we have inherited from Adam to be overcome. (1 Timothy 2:5, 6;Romans 5:18) When that is accomplished, humans will be able to enjoy what was set before Adam and Eve, endless life. Where?
God’s original purpose for humans was endless life in a Paradise on earth, and God’s purpose cannot fail or be thwarted. (Isaiah 55:11) So can we not look forward to that endless life being enjoyed right here on planet Earth, with the earth then restored to a paradisaic condition? There are numerous proofs in the Bible that this is the proper view, that God’s will yet will “take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (Matthew 6:10; Revelation 21:4, 5) For a more extensive discussion of the Biblical support for this, see “Does the Bible Promise an Earthly Paradise?” in The Watchtower of October 15, 1983.
Still, what about the apostle Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4? He pointedly said there that he was dealing with “supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord.” And evidently he was the one who received a special vision or rapturous insight into something that was future from his time. He spoke of being “caught away into paradise.” But since he also mentioned a “third heaven,” it seems he was referring to something spiritual, as distinct from a literal garden paradise. There was precedent for his doing so.
Many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures foretold that the Jews who were exiled in Babylon would be restored to their homeland. In addition to indications that the land and literal environmental condition would improve, these prophecies indicated that there would be a change in the people, the restored Jews. For instance, Isaiah wrote that Jehovah would ‘invigorate their very bones, and they would become like a well-watered garden’ and be “called big trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, for him to be beautified.” (Isaiah 58:11;61:3; compare Psalm 1:3.) Using similar imagery about an earlier period, Isaiah wrote that when the Israelites were faithful to Jehovah they were like his vineyard or planting; when unfaithful, they were vines producing wild grapes and destined for burning down, with thornbush and weeds growing in their place.—Isaiah 5:1-7.
Hence, there is Biblical reason to understand Paul’s visionary reference in 2 Corinthians 12:4to be about a future restoration of spiritual prosperity among God’s worshipers. He himself foretold that a falling away from true Christianity would occur before the “presence” of the Lord. (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8) However, that would not be the permanent situation. The true Christian congregation, “God’s field under cultivation,” would again flourish and be fruitful. (1 Corinthians 3:9) We understand that this is the paradise that Paul saw in vision. His reference to such a spiritual paradise, though, in no way takes away from the many Biblical promises of an approaching earthly Paradise, a Paradise restored in accord with God’s original purpose for the earth.
Paradise is no longer on earth, and will not return to earth. It is in Heaven -- the "third heaven", where the New Jerusalem is located.[/Quote\]
The context indicates that the “paradise” mentioned at 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is not a physical paradise on earth. However, many passages in the Bible prove that God will restore a literal Paradise to our earth.
The fact is that the first Paradise humans experienced was literal. Adam and Eve lived in a beautiful park, or garden, which is the basic meaning of the Hebrew, Greek and Persian words rendered paradise. They had the prospect of endless life in happiness and good health in that Paradise. Yet they lost that earthly Paradise when they rebelled and sinned, leading God to expel them from the garden of Eden.
Where does that leave us, now and for the future? There certainly is no evidence of our planet’s now being turned into a paradise. Rather, pollution and destruction abound. (Revelation 11:18) Still, it is inconceivable that God’s purpose for the earth to be a global Paradise will fail; what he starts, he finishes. To this end he sent his Son to provide a ransom, thus laying the groundwork for our sins to be forgiven and the imperfection we have inherited from Adam to be overcome. (1 Timothy 2:5, 6;Romans 5:18) When that is accomplished, humans will be able to enjoy what was set before Adam and Eve, endless life. Where?
God’s original purpose for humans was endless life in a Paradise on earth, and God’s purpose cannot fail or be thwarted. (Isaiah 55:11) So can we not look forward to that endless life being enjoyed right here on planet Earth, with the earth then restored to a paradisaic condition? There are numerous proofs in the Bible that this is the proper view, that God’s will yet will “take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (Matthew 6:10; Revelation 21:4, 5) For a more extensive discussion of the Biblical support for this, see “Does the Bible Promise an Earthly Paradise?” in The Watchtower of October 15, 1983.
Still, what about the apostle Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4? He pointedly said there that he was dealing with “supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord.” And evidently he was the one who received a special vision or rapturous insight into something that was future from his time. He spoke of being “caught away into paradise.” But since he also mentioned a “third heaven,” it seems he was referring to something spiritual, as distinct from a literal garden paradise. There was precedent for his doing so.
Many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures foretold that the Jews who were exiled in Babylon would be restored to their homeland. In addition to indications that the land and literal environmental condition would improve, these prophecies indicated that there would be a change in the people, the restored Jews. For instance, Isaiah wrote that Jehovah would ‘invigorate their very bones, and they would become like a well-watered garden’ and be “called big trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, for him to be beautified.” (Isaiah 58:11;61:3; compare Psalm 1:3.) Using similar imagery about an earlier period, Isaiah wrote that when the Israelites were faithful to Jehovah they were like his vineyard or planting; when unfaithful, they were vines producing wild grapes and destined for burning down, with thornbush and weeds growing in their place.—Isaiah 5:1-7.
Hence, there is Biblical reason to understand Paul’s visionary reference in 2 Corinthians 12:4to be about a future restoration of spiritual prosperity among God’s worshipers. He himself foretold that a falling away from true Christianity would occur before the “presence” of the Lord. (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8) However, that would not be the permanent situation. The true Christian congregation, “God’s field under cultivation,” would again flourish and be fruitful. (1 Corinthians 3:9) We understand that this is the paradise that Paul saw in vision. His reference to such a spiritual paradise, though, in no way takes away from the many Biblical promises of an approaching earthly Paradise, a Paradise restored in accord with God’s original purpose for the earth.
This is all explained in scripture. You make it complicated when it's not.
Luke 16 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment...
What happened when Lazarus died? Did he fall asleep until the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgment? No, he goes immediately to heaven.
Did the rich man have to wait until the final judgement, to go to Hades?
You make something very complicated that isn't.
Like 16:22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment,.."
There was no waiting or soul sleep for the rich man or Lazareth.
In what theologians call “the intermediate state,” all people await the time that Jesus foretold, “when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned” (John 5:28-29). Until that day comes, Scripture teaches that those who die will go to either the present Heaven or the present Hell, as conscious human beings with memories of their lives and relationships on Earth. Those in Hell will live in misery, hopelessness, and apparent isolation, while those in Heaven will live in comfort, joy, and rich relationship with God and others.
FYI, LDS Christians ("Mormons") also believe that Jesus is God, specifically God the Son.
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