No-one has gone to heaven?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,718
7,959
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Judgement does indeed begin with the house of God, it began with its Head our Lord Jesus Christ and has continued to take place amongst his true followers (the saints) all these past 2000 plus years, such are presently on trial for life or death while the rest of mankind will come into judgement (experience their trial) in the next age to see if they are worthy of eternal life.

I’m sorry I misunderstood you the first read. Can see what you speak of “such are presently on trial”. Not sure about the after life or what happens in the next age.

As for the statement, "Some men's sins are open, going beforehand to judgment, and others they follow after.” (1 Tim. 5:24)

This is to say, there are people who do wrong and receive promptly the punishment for their wrong course (their sins open going before unto judgement).

is this not The same as coming to the light that your deeds may be made known...while men hate the light and the reproof of their deeds, but instead love darkness.

Thus they have opportunity of improving upon the past.
Redeeming the time....possibly? Not sure about “they have the opportunity of improving upon the past” Since He said: old things have passed away, behold I make all things new. And even the warning of: do not return to your vomit.

Then there are the others those who seem to do well in this life, seem to prosper in earthly things; their eyes stand out with fatness; they seem to go unheeded in their wrong course, down to the very tomb. (Psa 73:3-12)

Will these escape retribution?

Doesn’t the word say they will be ashamed. (Imo) here: Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
 

Harvest 1874

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2018
1,100
573
113
62
Tampa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is all explained in scripture. You make it complicated when it's not.

Luke 16 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment...
What happened when Lazarus died? Did he fall asleep until the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgment? No, he goes immediately to heaven.
Did the rich man have to wait until the final judgement, to go to Hades?


You make something very complicated that isn't.

Like 16:22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment,.."
There was no waiting or soul sleep for the rich man or Lazareth.
In what theologians call “the intermediate state,” all people await the time that Jesus foretold, “when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned” (John 5:28-29). Until that day comes, Scripture teaches that those who die will go to either the present Heaven or the present Hell, as conscious human beings with memories of their lives and relationships on Earth. Those in Hell will live in misery, hopelessness, and apparent isolation, while those in Heaven will live in comfort, joy, and rich relationship with God and others.

Now you are attempting to use a parable to justify your position. The Lazarus in the parable has nothing to do with the real Lazarus whom the Lord raised from the dead.
 

Enow

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2020
1,210
215
63
60
Hermitage
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Far too many Christians and other faiths believe that the dead go to heaven.
This is regardless of how awful the person was.
Ministers and preachers of all denominations promote and maintain this nonsensical idea even when burying or burning the most evil criminals.
The Bible quite clearly says all the dead go into their graves so what do you think and why do you think you go to heaven when you die?

2 Corinthians 15:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

God is with us always now as saved believers and when we die, our spirit is with Him in Heaven, awaiting our resurrection.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Renniks

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
68
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Enoch111 said:
Paradise is no longer on earth, and will not return to earth.
It is in Heaven -- the "third heaven", where the New Jerusalem is located.[/Quote\]


The context indicates that the “paradise” mentioned at 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is not a physical paradise on earth. However, many passages in the Bible prove that God will restore a literal Paradise to our earth.

The fact is that the first Paradise humans experienced was literal. Adam and Eve lived in a beautiful park, or garden, which is the basic meaning of the Hebrew, Greek and Persian words rendered paradise. They had the prospect of endless life in happiness and good health in that Paradise. Yet they lost that earthly Paradise when they rebelled and sinned, leading God to expel them from the garden of Eden.

Where does that leave us, now and for the future? There certainly is no evidence of our planet’s now being turned into a paradise. Rather, pollution and destruction abound. (Revelation 11:18) Still, it is inconceivable that God’s purpose for the earth to be a global Paradise will fail; what he starts, he finishes. To this end he sent his Son to provide a ransom, thus laying the groundwork for our sins to be forgiven and the imperfection we have inherited from Adam to be overcome. (1 Timothy 2:5, 6;Romans 5:18) When that is accomplished, humans will be able to enjoy what was set before Adam and Eve, endless life. Where?

God’s original purpose for humans was endless life in a Paradise on earth, and God’s purpose cannot fail or be thwarted. (Isaiah 55:11) So can we not look forward to that endless life being enjoyed right here on planet Earth, with the earth then restored to a paradisaic condition? There are numerous proofs in the Bible that this is the proper view, that God’s will yet will “take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.” (Matthew 6:10; Revelation 21:4, 5)

Still, what about the apostle Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4? He pointedly said there that he was dealing with “supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord.” And evidently he was the one who received a special vision or rapturous insight into something that was future from his time. He spoke of being “caught away into paradise.” But since he also mentioned a “third heaven,” it seems he was referring to something spiritual, as distinct from a literal garden paradise. There was precedent for his doing so.

Many prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures foretold that the Jews who were exiled in Babylon would be restored to their homeland. In addition to indications that the land and literal environmental condition would improve, these prophecies indicated that there would be a change in the people, the restored Jews. For instance, Isaiah wrote that Jehovah would ‘invigorate their very bones, and they would become like a well-watered garden’ and be “called big trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, for him to be beautified.” (Isaiah 58:11;61:3; compare Psalm 1:3.) Using similar imagery about an earlier period, Isaiah wrote that when the Israelites were faithful to Jehovah they were like his vineyard or planting; when unfaithful, they were vines producing wild grapes and destined for burning down, with thornbush and weeds growing in their place.—Isaiah 5:1-7.

Hence, there is Biblical reason to understand Paul’s visionary reference in 2 Corinthians 12:4to be about a future restoration of spiritual prosperity among God’s worshipers. He himself foretold that a falling away from true Christianity would occur before the “presence” of the Lord. (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8) However, that would not be the permanent situation. The true Christian congregation, “God’s field under cultivation,” would again flourish and be fruitful. (1 Corinthians 3:9) We understand that this is the paradise that Paul saw in vision. His reference to such a spiritual paradise, though, in no way takes away from the many Biblical promises of an approaching earthly Paradise, a Paradise restored in accord with God’s original purpose for the earth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: r1xlx

Renniks

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2020
4,308
1,392
113
56
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
FYI, LDS Christians ("Mormons") also believe that Jesus is God, specifically God the Son.
Not in the same way Christiandom does.
Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate gods. And that we can also become god's. Not biblical.
 

Renniks

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2020
4,308
1,392
113
56
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Now you are attempting to use a parable to justify your position. The Lazarus in the parable has nothing to do with the real Lazarus whom the Lord raised from the dead.
No, but Jesus didn't make up a false theology of heaven and hell in order to make a point. And it may not be only a parable. In what other parable is a person named?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
68
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

confused, Why then the distaste of “the kingdom of God is within”? How does it not fit with “I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you” and even further: John 14:21-23 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. [22] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? [23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

As I said before and people continue to ignore even though I'm staying in context of these scriptures when Jesus spoke about the kingdom, some Bibles has it translated, "The kingdom of God is within" you want me to believe that Jesus was saying the kingdom of God was in the hearts of these Jews who he had earlier said they were disciples of Satan. Jesus was not saying the kingdom of God was in the the hearts of these jews, he was saying the kingdom of God was in their midst or among them, why? Because the king of that kingdom who's name is Jesus Christ was right there among them or in their midst. Just as Jesus is a real person that kingdom is a real actual government with Jesus as king. It's not something in the hearts of men. Why is the fact that Jesus is a real actual king with a real actual kingdom which is a real actual government such a distaste for people? Maybe it's possible that the human government's on this earth don't want to answer to that king or his government.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,718
7,959
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"The kingdom of God is within" you want me to believe that Jesus was saying the kingdom of God was in the hearts of these Jews who he had earlier said they were disciples of Satan. Jesus was not saying the kingdom of God was in the the hearts of these jews, he was saying the kingdom of God was in their midst or among them,

Going off one passage when many others imply within, and the heart. 1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

As does the good ground of the parables increasing and spring forth with Spiritual fruit, multiplying. Undoubtedly can it be denied the good ground is that which is born of Spirit and fails not to bring forth fruit to perfection? As to His referencing the Jews in the passage and “you want me to believe that Jesus was saying the kingdom of God was in the hearts of these Jews who he had earlier said they were disciples of Satan. Jesus was not saying the kingdom of God was in the the hearts of these jews,” consider
Luke 19:41-42 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, [42] Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The stone the builders rejected and received Him not. then again, one passage and ignoring all the others. John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Do get what you mean also that Christ is the kingdom and the King, and how that could also mean the kingdom was in their midst. Still...Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Christ in you= The King in you= the kingdom is within you.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,718
7,959
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus was not saying the kingdom of God was in the the hearts of these jews, he was saying the kingdom of God was in their midst or among them, why? Because the king of that kingdom who's name is Jesus Christ was right there among them or in their midst

let’s go with Jesus Christ was right there among them or in their midst...His being the King of the kingdom in their midst. Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

there again, the King was rejected and was taken from them, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. John 1:11-12 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. [12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Receive Him where?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
This is all explained in scripture. You make it complicated when it's not.

Luke 16 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment...
What happened when Lazarus died? Did he fall asleep until the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgment? No, he goes immediately to heaven.
Did the rich man have to wait until the final judgement, to go to Hades?


You make something very complicated that isn't.

Like 16:22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment,.."
There was no waiting or soul sleep for the rich man or Lazareth.
In what theologians call “the intermediate state,” all people await the time that Jesus foretold, “when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned” (John 5:28-29). Until that day comes, Scripture teaches that those who die will go to either the present Heaven or the present Hell, as conscious human beings with memories of their lives and relationships on Earth. Those in Hell will live in misery, hopelessness, and apparent isolation, while those in Heaven will live in comfort, joy, and rich relationship with God and others.
fwiw Lazarus is another way to say Eleazer
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

Well-Known Member
Jan 3, 2019
2,585
2,084
113
70
georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus was never GOD and GOD was never Jesus.
The message of the thief is that believing Jesus is the son of GOD washes away all sins and guarantees being resurrected to life on Earth in the Kingdom of Heaven.
And I'll stall any further argument bys saying that continued sinning after seeing the truth leads to damnation so all Catholics repeat sinners who think the preists has pardoned them are in for a shock.
Jesus is always God and unchangable. Anyone who denies this is not a Christian.
 

r1xlx

Active Member
Feb 26, 2020
198
36
28
76
HESSLE
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Jessu will be king of his kingdom - when he returns to Earth to depose Satan and claim Earth as his kingdom.
At this moment Earth is Satan's fiefdom - he rules it with the permission of GOD so is not king.
When Jesus told the
let’s go with Jesus Christ was right there among them or in their midst...His being the King of the kingdom in their midst. Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

there again, the King was rejected and was taken from them, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. John 1:11-12 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. [12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Receive Him where?
Spiritually. You lack spirituality. Ask GOD to be given the gift of wisdom.
 

Windmillcharge

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2017
2,934
1,824
113
69
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Try think this through: Jesus went into his grave for three days. So how could he rendezvous with the thief the same day? And he also said to Mary not to touch him because he had not yet gone to heaven?
You have Bibles and can read yet your eyes are dimmed and ears are blocked to what you read and hear.
The dead flying off to heaven is your friend Satan's Babylonian lie.

A good suggestion to think things through. So how do you explain what your Bible says Jesus said." Today you will be with mein paradise."
Have you thought it through.
 

Windmillcharge

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2017
2,934
1,824
113
69
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Jesus was never GOD and GOD was never Jesus.
The message of the thief is that believing Jesus is the son of GOD washes away all sins and guarantees being resurrected to life on Earth in the Kingdom of Heaven.
And I'll stall any further argument bys saying that continued sinning after seeing the truth leads to damnation so all Catholics repeat sinners who think the preists has pardoned them are in for a shock.

Having accused me of not reading the Bible you now demonstrate that you don't read it or know it.
John reports that the word was God,
 

Windmillcharge

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2017
2,934
1,824
113
69
London
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Well I don't agree with your speculative answer. I agree with the truth and your speculative answer basically is saying Jesus didn't really die because you see God can't die. Besides people can reason all they want, the truth is God can't die. I've always believed God sent his Only Begotten Son to us, not himself.

I think a lot of people interpret that Scripture at Luke 23:43 where some man chose to put a comma in that Scripture according to how he believed. Punctuation didn't exist when this Scripture was first written down, punctuation came much later.

Jesus is simply promising the man that when the resurrection of those who will be resurrected back on earth Jesus will resurrect the man and give him his chance for eternal life.

As I said those answers were speculative. They are guesses.

Where you need to reread the Bible is inJohn 1 where it says that the word was God. As well as all the bits whereJesus acts as God, forgiving sin, accepting worship and identifying as God eg I and the Father are One, before Abraham was I am.
As to his dying, he was fully human, he was not pretending he died. His executioners were professionals who if they let a condemned man escape would face the death penalty themselves. They made sure with a spear thrust to the heart that Jesus was dead.

To imply that Jesus only pretended makes a mockery of Christianity and of the suffering of Christians who are trusting in a saviour who has experience the suffering they suffer.
 

Harvest 1874

Well-Known Member
Apr 1, 2018
1,100
573
113
62
Tampa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, but Jesus didn't make up a false theology of heaven and hell in order to make a point. And it may not be only a parable. In what other parable is a person named?

See the blog post, "The Rich Man and Lazarus" for a better understanding of this parable.

You might likewise like to see our reply to a forum members suggestion that we,

Highlight the parts of Jesus' teaching of his doctrine, "YOU" claim are NOT Factual Truths

This is found under another blog post entitled, "The Rich Man and the Beggar"

Both of these should bring you up to speed.
 
Last edited: