Jim B
Well-Known Member
It is impossible to perfectly keep the law. Only Jesus did that, so you must be in Him to satisfy the law's requirements.
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No Righteousness of Obeying The Ten Commandments
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It is impossible to perfectly keep the law. Only Jesus did that, so you must be in Him to satisfy the law's requirements.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Out-of-context!
Acts 21:21-26, "They have been informed about you—that you teach all the Jews now living among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What then should we do? They will no doubt hear that you have come. So do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow; take them and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself live in conformity with the law. But regarding the Gentiles who have believed, we have written a letter, having decided that they should avoid meat that has been sacrificed to idols and blood and what has been strangled and sexual immorality.” Then Paul took the men the next day, and after he had purified himself along with them, he went to the temple and gave notice of the completion of the days of purification, when the sacrifice would be offered for each of them."
Context matters! Why, if, as you claim, Paul kept the law, would sacrifices be necessary? This whole scenario was created to demonstrate the Paul kept the Jewish practices. It says nothing about his keeping the ten commandments.
This is a prime example of eisegesis.
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
So that we are all clear, Jim B. is preaching that Christians are 100% innocent in God's eyes if they commit any of the following:
-Murder
-Theft
-Adultery
-Dishonor of parents
-Demon Worship
-Profaning of God's Holy Name
-Lying
-Coveting
Think for yourself, dear Christian.
-Murder
-Theft
-Adultery
-Dishonor of parents
-Demon Worship
-Profaning of God's Holy Name
-Lying
-Coveting
Think for yourself, dear Christian.
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
GEN2REV said:
The definition of SIN is the breaking of the 10 Commandments.
1 John 3:4
Not out of context.
You think sacrifices are still necessary after Christ's Crucifixion? Really?
Jim B
Well-Known Member
Are you really that deceived and unable to write the truth? Where did I say that Christians are 100% innocent in God's eyes if they commit any of the following:
-Murder
-Theft
-Adultery
-Dishonor of parents
-Demon Worship
-Profaning of God's Holy Name
-Lying
-Coveting
You are a child of Satan, the father of lies!
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
You are clearly arguing from a place of pure ignorance and a stubborn attitude, particularly because Paul retained his identity as a Pharisee after his conversion:
One of the biggest hurdles Paul faced in trying to preach the true gospel to the Orthodox Jews is the fact that in an attempt to destroy Paul's credibility, they made the same false accusations against Paul that they did with Christ and Stephen by accusing him of teaching against Moses' writings. Acts 21:27-28 records one such incident. Considering Paul himself stated that he still believed in the authority of the OT writings after his conversion(Acts 24:14), it makes 0 sense for any professing Christian to portray the Paul in the Bible as someone who taught against law-keeping.
It is because of Paul's words in Acts 24:14 that any objective reader can read his epistles with the crystal clear understanding that he isn't telling people to disregard the OT's authority. It is completely illogical and foolish for anyone to believe that God would inspire someone to contradict what He stated in Deuteronomy about His laws being given for humanity's benefit.
That statement was not written to the disciples before the Holy Spirit was given, because John was an old man when he wrote his gospel account, the epistles bearing his name, and Revelation. That was approximately in the 80's or 90's A.D., which was several decades after the disciples received the Holy Spirit.
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Can you then continue to wilfully sin (break the Commandments) and remain "right" in God's eyes?Jim B said:
I think it may be you who is arguing from ignorance:
Do we then nullify the law by this faith(righteousness of faith in Christ, not by obeying the law) Not at all! Rather we uphold the law! Rom3:31
For sin/breaking the law shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Rom6:14
Rom ch 7 is all about the need to die to righteousness of obeying the law, who said anything about not seeing the law reflected in your life?
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
Rom. 3:31 ironically destroys the argument you're trying to make with it. In that passage, Paul clearly says that all of the apostles were upholding the authority of the Decalogue, which would naturally include himself.
More proof of your dishonesty and ignorance is highlighted by the fact that you conveniently neglected to mention verse 22 where Paul says he delighted in living by God's commandments. So if Paul delighted in living by God's commandments, that automatically means the obligation exists for all Christians to live by them.
Despite what you think(and it's obvious that you don't), Paul's theology in Rom. 7 amounts to him saying that the Decalogue showed him what he was supposed to do and gave him the knowledge of sin, but his carnal nature led him in the opposite direction of doing what the Decalogue required of him. Paul made no attempts to cast the Decalogue or living by it as the source of his problems. He openly acknowledged that the problem lied with his carnal nature(verses 17-21), which as Rom. 8:7 says, is hostile towards God's authority.
It is because of that conflict that he asks who will save him from his carnal nature(verse 24) and thanks God for providing the strength he needed to continue obeying His commandments(verse 25).
Despite antinomian attempts at using Rom. 7 as "proof" of their theology, Rom. 7 actually contradicts it because Paul spends this chapter talking about his struggle with sin and thanking God for providing the strength he needed to overcome his carnal nature's tendency to lead him into disobeying God's commandments.
You're speaking on things that you aren't the least bit educated or honest about because your premise was built on a false foundation right out of the gate. Your claim that Jesus' problem with the Orthodox Jews was that they did what the Law required contradicts the Bible showing the opposite was true(Matt. 5:17-20, Matt. 23:23, Mar. 7:7-9, Jhn 5:45-46, Jhn 7:19). Jesus' own words are an indictment against your theology because in every last one of those passages, He rebuked them for not doing what the Law required of them.
Firstly, Jesus problem with the pharisees was, they did not practice what they preached. (Matt23:2&3) Hence, the yeast of the pharisees was hypocrisy(Luke12:1) They also neglected the love of God(Luke11:42) and obviously didn't love their neighbours either.
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more. Heb10:15-17
I hope you understand, the law is now in every believers heart and mind. So no believer can or would seek to ignore what has been placed in their most inward parts, it would be impossible to do. If the law is in your mind, you must know in your mind what has been placed there. If the law is in your heart, you in your heart want to follow what has been placed there.
As I keep telling you, my posts on this subject are not concerning ignoring living according to the law God desires you to follow, but rather, the christian is not under righteousness of obeying the law as Paul continually stressed. As you are taking so much offence at what I write, I can only assume you are offended at the idea of the believer having no righteousness of obeying the law. Better for you to embrace it!
Jim B
Well-Known Member
This is hypothetical nonsense. Why would any Christian continue to willfully sin? Perhaps that's what you want to (secretly) do but I don't. I have the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth. You, on the other hand, seem to be guided by the law and continually struggle with sin.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
I didn't bother to read beyond your first two paragraphs, as I don't suffer fools who can't understand the Bible.
Romans 3:21-24, " But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (although it is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed— namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:27-31, " Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded! By what principle? Of works? No, but by the principle of faith! For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the Gentiles too? Yes, of the Gentiles too! Since God is one, he will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then nullify the law through faith? Absolutely not! Instead we uphold the law." [through faith!]
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
James clearly wrote in his epistle that whoever doesn't DO what the word requires is only deceiving themselves because the Decalogue will be the standard that everybody will be judged by. And since you will be judged by it, the obligation clearly exists for you to live by it. God imprinting the law on someone's heart means they have the desire to make every effort to live in accordance with God's commandments and do the opposite of what most of ancient Israel refused to do(Deut. 5:29).
Spare me the lies about this isn't supposedly about living according the law of God, because you started this thread by distorting Paul's words as him saying that his problems were caused by trying to keep God's commandments. You even went so far as to argue that Paul only talked about his past as an unconverted Pharisee when he stated that he delighted in keeping God's commandments.
The problem isn't that i don't understand what you're trying to say. The problem i have is that you are trying to camouflage a lawless gospel with righteous-sounding language and a blatant misuse of Paul's words.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Nope! That's a leaven idea of men. Paul was speaking AS A CHRISTIAN in Romans 7.
And some Christians obviously have a problem understanding Paul in that Romans 7 Chapter about pointing to our fleshy members being "the body of sin". Yeah... let's see if we can change... what Paul meant there by adding men's leaven fragments to it, and cloud up God's Word! That's the enemies of Christ wanting to do that.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Apostle Paul made the matter of sin very clear because of our flesh and God's laws.
IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we are not under the law. That is, IF... we walk by The Spirit. In software programming, they call that a Boolean operator. It means something is only true IF... the proposed condition is true.
Don't walk by The Spirit, and it means what?
It means back under the law, because as Paul showed in Galatians 5, not walking by The Spirit means walking by our FLESH. And he listed some of the sins of the flesh that God's law is against. AND THIS IS A CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE BY THE WAY!
Gal 5:18-21
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV
WOW! We got some committing some of those FLESH SINS right here on this Forum, with their heresies against God's Word!
IF... we walk by The Spirit, then we are not under the law. That is, IF... we walk by The Spirit. In software programming, they call that a Boolean operator. It means something is only true IF... the proposed condition is true.
Don't walk by The Spirit, and it means what?
It means back under the law, because as Paul showed in Galatians 5, not walking by The Spirit means walking by our FLESH. And he listed some of the sins of the flesh that God's law is against. AND THIS IS A CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE BY THE WAY!
Gal 5:18-21
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV
WOW! We got some committing some of those FLESH SINS right here on this Forum, with their heresies against God's Word!
Jim B
Well-Known Member
The problem I have is that you are trying to camouflage a false gospel of OT law with righteous-sounding language and a blatant misuse of Paul's words.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
What Paul wrote in Romans 7 (after He had been born of the Spirit) was this: "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."
That seems pretty clear to me.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
You made a good argument until this: "WOW! We got some committing some of those FLESH SINS right here on this Forum, with their heresies against God's Word!"
Apparently your Bible doesn't contain this: "“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own?" Matthew 7:1-3
Or if it does, why don't you accept it?
Davy
Well-Known Member
You mean you have not done enough Bible study to learn how Lord Jesus meant that 'do not judge' idea? Man, I'll bet you think a lot of ideas you have where those studied rebutt you makes you think you are still correct!
I don't 'judge', because Jesus' idea there is about not judging one to CONDEMNATION.
Do you know what condemnation means? It's about saying someone is going to burn in the future lake of fire! Only Jesus has that Authority of who goes in that future fire.
Therefore, the word 'judge' can be have different contexts in God's Word, like DISCERNMENT. And He definitely commanded us to 'discern' the fruit, didn't He? Yeah!
That is what I did with YOUR words when you spoke AGAINST Bible Scripture. I 'discerned' your fruit, and it was rotten.
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