No Righteousness of Obeying The Ten Commandments

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stephen64

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We have what is often termed ‘’the legalistic law’’ and the ‘’moral law’’ given at Sania. The legalistic laws were written in Leviticus.

Then you have what is known as the moral law/ten commandments.

In Jesus day, the Pharisees could faultlessly obey the legalistic law, they cleaned the outside of the cup. Paul himself said of his life as a Pharisee, that he faultlessly obeyed the legalistic law (Phil3:6 NIV 1984 edition) Therefore, when Paul relentlessly insisted you could have no righteousness of obeying the law, it had to be because of the moral law. He wrote:

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness 2Cor3:6-9

Paul is speaking in the above of the law engraved in stone, which was of course the Ten Commandments/the moral law. Paul explains himself in Romans:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,a]">[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6

When Paul speaks of dying to the law, he means dying to righteousness of obeying the law(Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth Rom10:4) Then he makes a statement that when we were in our flesh, sinfull passions were aroused in us by the law. But by dying to what once bound us we are released from the law and serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the written code.

So which law is Paul referring to in the above? Well it cannot be the legalistic law, for he stated he could perfectly obey it, so sinfull passions were not aroused in him by that law. He now continues on, giving an explanation as to why he had to die to righteousness of obeying the law/works of the law. He had a lot of commandments to choose from, however:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived(or sin consciousness sprang to life), and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Verses7-11



So, before Saul the Pharisee made his commitment to God at the age of 13 I believe for a young Jewish lad, he felt alive, for there was no condemnation from the law, he would I am sure have been a normal healthy kid. But then as a young teenager he made that commitment, and knew he must obey the law. He must have been raised strictly for he became an ardent Pharisee. Before him stood the law, and the pinnacle of it was the ten commandments. These commands must be obeyed if he was to attain to Heaven and avoid hell.

So, knowing what those laws demanded he is faced with ‘’thou shalt not covet’’ Thou shalt not desire what is not yours to desire, though shalt not lust, thou shalt not have impure thoughts. Now imagine, what would happen if a young teenager was petrified of breaking the ten commandments as this could send them to hell? They must not lust, they must not have impure thoughts. Probably be afraid of them coming. It won’t be long before they are going to end up consummed by what they are afraid of, that’s human nature where the inside is concerned. I mean, if I said God would send you to hell if you thought of a pink rabbit, what is the first thought that would come into your head if you believed me? Thus, through the commandment thou shalt not covet all manner of concupiscence was aroused in Saul and he started to die/feel condemned. He wasn’t feeling so alive now. The commandment that was ordained to life, if he obeyed it, instead brought death/condemnation for he could not keep it. Hence verse 5 explained. Sinfull passions are aoused in us by the law if we live under it. NOT the legalistic law, for you could live under that and perfectly obey it, but rather the moral law

Of course, that only happened to Saul because he feared condemnation by breaking the law, so what happens if you remove the condemnation?

For sin/.breaking the law shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ Romans 6:14
Hence Paul's core message was:
Die to righteousness of obeying the law and sin shall not be your master. And Paul could testify to the truth of it
 

Windmillcharge

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No we are not bound to obey the Law, the ten commandments, because of fear of the consquences of failure to keep them.

We are charged to show that we Love Jesus by how we keep them.
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
 

stephen64

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No we are not bound to obey the Law, the ten commandments, because of fear of the consquences of failure to keep them.

We are charged to show that we Love Jesus by how we keep them.
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
But we don't receive the Holy Spirit because we have obeyed the law do we:

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? Gal3:2&3

My apologies if you were not stating that
 
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Davy

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7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness 2Cor3:6-9

Paul is speaking in the above of the law engraved in stone, which was of course the Ten Commandments/the moral law. Paul explains himself in Romans:
....

Too much narrow-focus on the idea of law. In that 2 Corinthians 3:9 verse, Paul was NO LONGER pointing to the law, but about Christ's Salvation through His Blood shed on the cross. That is why Paul used terms like, "ministration of the spirit"...

2 Cor 3:6-17
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
KJV


That is why Apostle Paul taught as New Testament doctrine that if we are invited to an unbelieving Gentile house for dinner, to eat what is put before us, asking no questions, and that for the sake of The Gospel, which you want the chance to tell them about. But only don't eat if you know it was sacrificed to idols.

Per the old covenant laws, NO eating of unclean meats was permitted, at any time. Thus the 'liberty' in Christ Paul speaks of supersedes the laws in the old covenant, rituals, etc., what Paul called the "handwriting in ordinances" in Colossians 2 which Jesus nailed to His cross.

But still, the Christian can go too far with their thinking about that 'liberty' also, thinking that somehow Jesus made unclean meats suddenly healthy for our flesh body to eat, when that simply is not so. Paul's simple idea is to 'eat to live', and whatever is sold in the shambles (market), that eat. Why? In order to live. That means IF clean meats are available, we should choose those over unclean meats that are not healthy for our body. Kind of like a survivalist who can only find lizards to eat while trying to find their way back to civilization. Doesn't mean they are going to continue to eat lizards once they've returned to civilization.
 
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Windmillcharge

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But we don't receive the Holy Spirit because we have obeyed the law do we:

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? Gal3:2&3

My apologies if you were not stating that

Only someone in whom the Spirit is dewlling can Love Jesus.

How do you show that you love Jesus? by seeking to keep his commands.
 

stephen64

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And in practicle terms that meansthe ten commandments.
Just don't forget, that Paul, when writing to born again Christians stated the ten commandments were the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. In my experience, many do not understand what obeying those laws demand. But why stop at those laws, what about Christ's commands in the Gospels?
 
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Jim B

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No we are not bound to obey the Law, the ten commandments, because of fear of the consquences of failure to keep them.

We are charged to show that we Love Jesus by how we keep them.
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

Clearly this was written to the Jewish disciples before the Holy Spirit was given.

John 14:15-17, " “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you."

John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come."

The OT law doesn't apply to Christians -- those who have received the Holy Spirit. Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."
 
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GRACE ambassador

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GEN2REV

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No we are not bound to obey the Law, the ten commandments, because of fear of the consquences of failure to keep them.

We are charged to show that we Love Jesus by how we keep them.
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
"The works of His hands are verity and judgment; all His Commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in Truth and uprightness."
Psalms 111:7-8

"My covenant will I not break nor alter (forever) the thing that has gone out of My lips."
Psalms 89:34

"For I am the Lord, I change not; ..."
Malachi 3:6
 

Davy

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The OT law doesn't apply to Christians -- those who have received the Holy Spirit. Romans 7:4, "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God."

That's often how that Romans 7:4 verse is taught, but that is not Apostle Paul's meaning there in Romans 7, simply because in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5, Apostle Paul showed we become 'dead to the law' only IF... we walk by The Spirit. Paul said God's law is good and spiritual, that it was not made for the righteous, but for the sinner and ungodly.

In actuality, what Paul is showing in Romans 7:1-6 is simply that as Christians, we are no longer to walk by our flesh, but now serve in 'newness of spirit', which of course is pointing us to walk by The Spirit.

In Galatians 5, Paul points out that IF we walk by The Spirit we won't be breaking any of God's laws, simply because doing the good things by The Spirit there is no law against. But walk by our flesh instead, which will bring sin, and we place ourselves back... under the law.

Then starting in Romans 7:14 to verse 25, Paul explains the wretched state all born in the flesh are in, even after having believed on Jesus Christ. Our fleshy members follows the law of sin, warring against our spirit, which wants to follow God's laws. And this condition will follow us all our days in the flesh upon this earth. It is why Paul said that all born in the flesh are concluded under sin, so that God's Promise by Faith might be given to those who believe on Jesus Christ.

Thus there is a condition to no longer be under the law, and it means walking by The Spirit, like Paul said:

Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV

Paul at the end of the Romans 7 Chapter appears like he just gives up, and resigns to the operations of the flesh law of sin, but that's not true. Paul was simply showing us the difference between this flesh world and our time here vs. being in that other dimension of Spirit once our flesh is cast off along with this world.

And 1 John 1 guides on what to do IF... we find ourselves falling away to our flesh and walking by our flesh again. We are to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness, and get back on track with serving Him. So little slip ups in sin after we have believed are going to happen, it's just part of this flesh world we are assigned to. Take care of it in Christ, and get back to His work. And once He has forgiven us, we are not to beat ourselves up about it, but forget it, and get back to work in Him.

 
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MatthewG

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When it comes down to the Commandments of the Nation of Israel by Moses -> There were material blessing and curses that went along with them.
 
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GEN2REV

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Thus there is a condition to no longer be under the law, and it means walking by The Spirit, like Paul said:
Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV
And the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ.
Romans 8:9
And the Spirit leads us to obey all the 10 Commandments - just as Jesus obeyed them when the Spirit was with Him in the flesh.
John 15:10

We are also told in Scripture that the Spirit only enters and abides (lives in/stays with) those who are willing to obey, those who have shown obedience.

"... we are His witnesses ... and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey Him."
Acts 5:32
"He that hath My Commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: ... and I will love him, and manifest Myself unto him. ... If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
John 14:21
John 14:23

IF ... one obeys.

IF ... we keep the Commandments.

Conditional.

Agreed.
 

dev553344

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When it comes down to the Commandments of the Nation of Israel by Moses -> There were material blessing and curses that went along with them.
Yes there are. The ten commandments are the bare minimum requirements of barely righteous people. The more righteous laws are told by Jesus in the sheep and goats. Blessings for obeying those laws are probably better than the ten commandments.
 
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stephen64

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That's often how that Romans 7:4 verse is taught, but that is not Apostle Paul's meaning there in Romans 7, simply because in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5, Apostle Paul showed we become 'dead to the law' only IF... we walk by The Spirit. Paul said God's law is good and spiritual, that it was not made for the righteous, but for the sinner and ungodly.

In actuality, what Paul is showing in Romans 7:1-6 is simply that as Christians, we are no longer to walk by our flesh, but now serve in 'newness of spirit', which of course is pointing us to walk by The Spirit.

In Galatians 5, Paul points out that IF we walk by The Spirit we won't be breaking any of God's laws, simply because doing the good things by The Spirit there is no law against. But walk by our flesh instead, which will bring sin, and we place ourselves back... under the law.

Then starting in Romans 7:14 to verse 25, Paul explains the wretched state all born in the flesh are in, even after having believed on Jesus Christ. Our fleshy members follows the law of sin, warring against our spirit, which wants to follow God's laws. And this condition will follow us all our days in the flesh upon this earth. It is why Paul said that all born in the flesh are concluded under sin, so that God's Promise by Faith might be given to those who believe on Jesus Christ.

Thus there is a condition to no longer be under the law, and it means walking by The Spirit, like Paul said:

Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV

Paul at the end of the Romans 7 Chapter appears like he just gives up, and resigns to the operations of the flesh law of sin, but that's not true. Paul was simply showing us the difference between this flesh world and our time here vs. being in that other dimension of Spirit once our flesh is cast off along with this world.

And 1 John 1 guides on what to do IF... we find ourselves falling away to our flesh and walking by our flesh again. We are to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness, and get back on track with serving Him. So little slip ups in sin after we have believed are going to happen, it's just part of this flesh world we are assigned to. Take care of it in Christ, and get back to His work. And once He has forgiven us, we are not to beat ourselves up about it, but forget it, and get back to work in Him.
If believers never broke any of God’s laws by walking in the Spirit they would be perfect in the flesh and sinless. No believer attains to that. The believer is on a journey, of living an ever holier life as they grow in the faith and mature. As long as you stay on that path, steadily looking to Christ you have nothing to fear concerning the law and sin. The problem is when you wilfully look away from that path, and commit what we may term wilfull sin. At that point, you cannot have peace because you are not under law but under grace. You will have no rest and no peace until you come before God and tell him you are sorry for your folly, then you get your peace back and you carry on the path. You have to view sin in two ways, as John did(1John1:8&1John3:9)

Concerning Rom7:1-6, the whole chapter concerns the need to die to righteousness of obeying the law. In verses 4-6 paul explains we must die to the law/die to righteousness of obeying it in order to live for God. Sinfull passions are aroused in us by the law if we live under it, we follow after the Spirit not the written code. Verses 7-11 are Paul giving an example from his own life as a Pharisee as to why he had to die to righteousness of obeying the law. Verse eight explains what he wrote in verse five. Through his knowledge of the commandment thou shalt not covet all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him, and sin through the commandment slew him. If you live under the law, your fear of breaking it produces sinfull passions in you. Example: If I said to you, if you think of a pink rabbilt God will send you to hell, what’s the first thought that would come into your head if you believe me? In the end you will be consumed by thoughts of such a creature, though you desperatley wouldn't want to be. Saul was an ardent Pharisee, the law must be obeyed and the pinnacle of that law was the ten commandments. He had to obey it or end up in hell. He must not covet/lust have impure thoughts. What will be the result? He ends up consumed by all manner of concupiscence
 
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stephen64

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That's often how that Romans 7:4 verse is taught, but that is not Apostle Paul's meaning there in Romans 7, simply because in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 and Galatians 5, Apostle Paul showed we become 'dead to the law' only IF... we walk by The Spirit. Paul said God's law is good and spiritual, that it was not made for the righteous, but for the sinner and ungodly.

In actuality, what Paul is showing in Romans 7:1-6 is simply that as Christians, we are no longer to walk by our flesh, but now serve in 'newness of spirit', which of course is pointing us to walk by The Spirit.

In Galatians 5, Paul points out that IF we walk by The Spirit we won't be breaking any of God's laws, simply because doing the good things by The Spirit there is no law against. But walk by our flesh instead, which will bring sin, and we place ourselves back... under the law.

Then starting in Romans 7:14 to verse 25, Paul explains the wretched state all born in the flesh are in, even after having believed on Jesus Christ. Our fleshy members follows the law of sin, warring against our spirit, which wants to follow God's laws. And this condition will follow us all our days in the flesh upon this earth. It is why Paul said that all born in the flesh are concluded under sin, so that God's Promise by Faith might be given to those who believe on Jesus Christ.

Thus there is a condition to no longer be under the law, and it means walking by The Spirit, like Paul said:

Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV

Paul at the end of the Romans 7 Chapter appears like he just gives up, and resigns to the operations of the flesh law of sin, but that's not true. Paul was simply showing us the difference between this flesh world and our time here vs. being in that other dimension of Spirit once our flesh is cast off along with this world.

And 1 John 1 guides on what to do IF... we find ourselves falling away to our flesh and walking by our flesh again. We are to repent and ask Jesus forgiveness, and get back on track with serving Him. So little slip ups in sin after we have believed are going to happen, it's just part of this flesh world we are assigned to. Take care of it in Christ, and get back to His work. And once He has forgiven us, we are not to beat ourselves up about it, but forget it, and get back to work in Him.
Romans 7:14-24 is Paul reflecting on his life as a Pharisee NOT as a Christian. Though he speaks in the present tense, this was often done then concerning matters of the past for dramatic effect. Paul wrote romans towards the end of his life. Would we really believe for the whole of his Christian life, he could not do the good he wanted to do, but only the evil he did not want to do he did? He had the desire to do what is good but he could not carry it out? Its all about sin and defeat, no victory at all. That’s not Paul’s message of Christianity is it. In verse 14 he states he is sold as a slave to sin, in ch6:16 he writes: Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? If Paul is speaking of his Christian life in 7:14-24 he is condemning himself according to what he wrote. A slave always has a master. In rom 7:14 Paul states he is sold as a slave to sin, so sin is Paul’s master. Yet in 6:14 he wrote: For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace. Now that’s the core of Paul’s message. So either he lived under the law as a Pharisee in ch7:14-24 or he preached a message that couldn’t be reflected in his own life.

Ch 7:14-24 is all about coveting, what goes on, on the inside of man, Paul is going into detail concenring what he wrote in 7-11. For those five verses are all about being condemned by sin, the example given: Thou shalt not covet.
 
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stephen64

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Yes there are. The ten commandments are the bare minimum requirements of barely righteous people. The more righteous laws are told by Jesus in the sheep and goats. Blessings for obeying those laws are probably better than the ten commandments.
If you believe obeying the letter of the ten commandments are the bare minimum requirement, I hope you never have any impure thoughts, I hope you never make a god out of anything other than your father in Heaven. I hope you never build any graven image in your mind. I hope you never get angry with your brother(Jesus ratified the commandment) I hope you never look at a woman with lust in your eye(Jesus ratified the commandment) I hope you never tell any lies about anyone, even small fibs. Paul stated the Ten Commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. I wouldn't want to look to those laws and gauge if I had met the minimum requirement by obedience to them
The christians righteousness is faith in Christ, not according to obeying the law. And strangely enough, when you believe that, you will better obey the law/not sin. That's Paul's message anyway
 

RedFan

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Paul stated the Ten Commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation.

When Paul references "the Law" he is referencing more than just the Ten Commandments. He means to include the full panoply of Jewish offerings, dietary restrictions, purification rituals and other do's (like circumcision) and don't's (like sharing a table with Gentiles) found in the Pentateuch and elsewhere. And whether to abandon compliance with such directives vel non was a burning issue in the early Church (as shown by the Council of Jerusalem described in Acts). But I don't believe that Paul's letters, anywhere, state that the Ten Commandments "are the letter that kills," nor do I see where he has counseled his audience not to comply with any of the Ten. What verse were you thinking of?
 

Episkopos

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There IS righteousness in obeying the law of God. BUT that righteousness must be imputed to the obedient one by God not ourselves. We can never justify ourselves by what we have done OR what we believe. It is God who justifies and no other.

Should we obey the law! YES! No unrighteous person will inherit the kingdom. The law is a gauge of sin. Are we sinners? Then let us be repentant and be broken in the outer man so that we truly take on a contrite and lowly heart.