OFFENSIVE CHRISTMAS FARE EXPLODES

[Helen]

The way I see it, if they want to relegate the importance of Jesus Christ to a day, then I can't on good conscience call them real Christians. These are the kinds of Christians one would describe as 'straddling the fence', or someone with one foot in the church and other in the world. These are the kind of people who will pretend to be holy and of God while in the church, but when they set foot outside of it, the mask comes off revealing who they really are. This is why I have no respect for Christmas even if its being used as a day of worship. To associate God in any way with Christmas of all things makes a joke out of the faith of the world. Its one of many reasons why they don't take Christianity seriously.

I can't totally agree with you there.
I remember as a child being challenged "in church" at both christmas time and Easter. I was not a practicing Christian ...I didn't know that there was such a thing. But those early years of hearing about Jesus set my heart believing in God and in Jesus...Even at 10 I would have called myself a Christian if asked.
Not until my 20's did I start in earnest to find how to have a relationship with Father ...so I cannot rule out all those little seeds that get scattered into hearts at Christmas and Easter.

 

[liafailrock]

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ, and has been since the 2nd century. It is also a secular holiday and that does not mean it is pagan. The exact day of Christ's birth is unknown thus irrelevant to the day chosen. The only "facts" you have are 18th century inventions. You offer no evidence of a Christianized pagan holiday.

Zechariah was acting as high priest when the birth of St. John the baptizer was announced to him in the Holy of Holies in the Temple. That would have been on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement which falls in late September. St. John was conceived shortly thereafter during Sukkot, the Festival of Booths.

At the Annunciation, the BVM was told that Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant. That would have been in late March. (BTW the feast of the Annunciation is celebrated on March 25th in the Roman Calendar. Oh, those rascally Catlicks!)

Nine months later Jesus was born sometime in late December.

Now there is an interesting coincidence with all this. St. John would have been born near the Summer Solstice (the longest day of the year) everyday after that would get shorter until the Winter Solstice six months later, which is the shortest day of the year. Every day after that would get longer. In the First Century the Winter Solstice fell on December 25th.

It would be fitting that Jesus would have been born on the shortest day of the year because he is the "Light of the World":

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. (John 8:12)

Everyday after his birth there was more light.

Also St. John the Baptizer said of himself:

He must increase, but I must decrease.” (John 3:30)

Which is exactly what happened to the daylight after their respective births. (This was the point St. Augustine made in his championing the celebration of Jesus' birth on the Winter Solstice).

So despite the objections of some pundits, December 25th is a very reasonable date to celebrate Jesus' birth and not a concession to paganism.

The Winter Solstice was NOT a Roman Civil holiday until 273 AD. The Emperor Aurelian made December 25th a civil holiday because the Christians were already using it to celebrate the Birth of Jesus and he was trying to detract from the Christian celebration!

None of the Sun Cults used December 25th before then. The Winter Solstice was originally a CHRISTIAN feast that the pagans tried to paganize, not the other way around.

No I don't agree with your historical analysis at all, but at least your heart is in the right place. Shepherds would not be out in Judea watching over their sheep in a cold December night. Like the next sister's post declared, he was born in September. She believes the feast of Tabernacles. I think it was the feast of Trumpets, but I won't mince over a few days as they are practically the same time. I base my opinion of Revelation 12:1 which is descriptive of an astronomical position AS WELL AS symbolism. One thing for certain, whatever Christ did, it was based on feast days in Leviticus 23. Those feasts are the outline of the redemption of mankind, and as such are central to the bible. So with that.... I stand with the #2 group of people. However, I just said I should not revere the day. I won't tell others what to do. While I personally believe they are misguided, that does not mean God can't use them or save them. So I won't judge. I just don't like the holiday itself.

 

[amadeus]

Of course the point of the OP was not that the celebration Christmas is, or is not, a good thing, nor was it to present an argument as to when or if any such celebration should be held. It was rather as some have already observed to emphasize the growth of an anti-Christ spirit all about us.

Anyone who has been around more than a couple of years in our society [not necessarily church], can see changes in what people are able to say and are saying openly against anything that is thought by anyone to be Christian. Even the pagans in the past had more respect and held their tongues out of respect. Where is any respect today? Little respect exists among believers is what I see. Am I wrong?

Rather than simply agree that there is an anti-Christ spirit at work and that we should all pray for God to help us to keep ourselves and others clean from it, some would use this as another opportunity to go after those who disagree with them for good or bad reasons.

Does everything here always have to be about convincing others that is "my way or the highway?

What is clear, and what hopefully everyone who in some measure really believes in God and the redemptive work of His Son understands, is that there is really an anti-Christian spirit at work all around us. Let us all pray that God will have His Way in this and that all of us will work to accomplish God's will rather than our own. Let all of work on "me" rather than tearing down others with slightly or greatly different Christian beliefs...

Help us all dear Lord!

 

[liafailrock]

Exactly, the legalist's on here would tell you otherwise. They would rather tie the rope of the old mosaic law observances around our necks and claim that we are not to worship on Sunday for instance. I would truly like to see how they view Christmas, just to see how double minded they really are. I'm sure many of these hypocrites the world over are perfectly fine with Christmas.

Legalists? But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

Me thinks the traditionalists are the "legalists". God's Holy Days are in Scripture. I don't need to celebrate something that is worldly. Just look around and open your eyes. The WHOLE WORLD celebrates Christmas. Don't you know that friends with the world is enmity with God?

 

[Dcopymope]

Legalists? But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

Me thinks the traditionalists are the "legalists". God's Holy Days are in Scripture. I don't need to celebrate something that is worldly. Just look around and open your eyes. The WHOLE WORLD celebrates Christmas. Don't you know that friends with the world is enmity with God?

Do I know that being friends with the world makes me God's enemy? Well do I ever!!!!

 

[Dcopymope]

I can't totally agree with you there.
I remember as a child being challenged "in church" at both christmas time and Easter. I was not a practicing Christian ...I didn't know that there was such a thing. But those early years of hearing about Jesus set my heart believing in God and in Jesus...Even at 10 I would have called myself a Christian if asked.
Not until my 20's did I start in earnest to find how to have a relationship with Father ...so I cannot rule out all those little seeds that get scattered into hearts at Christmas and Easter.

Well, there is a saying that what is meant for evil and foolishness can be turned on its head for good by God. However, was it really just the church doing its job that planted that seed, or the holiday? I would think hard on that one.

 

[epostle1]

Legalists? But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

Me thinks the traditionalists are the "legalists". God's Holy Days are in Scripture. I don't need to celebrate something that is worldly. Just look around and open your eyes. The WHOLE WORLD celebrates Christmas. Don't you know that friends with the world is enmity with God?

Well, if celebrating the birth of Christ is worldly, does that mean celebrating the Resurrection is worldly?

 

[mjrhealth]

is that there is really an anti-Christian spirit at work all around us.

Thats being happening since Jesus died on the cross, what was it He said,

Mat_6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

thats teh bit we are to be concerned with, and pray, for that is our duty which even im not very good at.

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh but wait, doesn't scripture state that the governments responsible for this are ordained by God to be his ministers? Or is that a joke?

no, imo it is just one-dimensional, and government cannot be described in only that way. That some ppl in Gov will abuse the law does not mean that the law is evil, i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't understand why Christians pretend like it has anything at all to do with the Bible. What in the blue hell does Christmas have to do with Jesus Christ? What did Jesus Christ do on December 25th that gives the date any relevance at all?

well, as has already just recently come out in another thread, Tradition can be worshipped and considered "holy," just like Scripture can; two false idols, iow. Not saying that Scripture is false of course, but worship of It or calling It "Holy" is. At least i have never seen "Holy" in connection with "Bible" anywhere but the cover; anyone?

 

[bbyrd009]

But as you said, If it is a time when men think of Jesus, even if for but a moment what does it matter.

one decent arg off the top of my head is bc Christ is given a back seat to Santa, etc

 

[bbyrd009]

These are the kinds of Christians one would describe as 'straddling the fence', or someone with one foot in the church and other in the world.

ya...if only that did not describe me, too, lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, if celebrating the birth of Christ is worldly, does that mean celebrating the Resurrection is worldly?

no, but it does occlude Passover, which we can witness is even further occluded by Easter.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, if celebrating the birth of Christ is worldly, does that mean celebrating the Resurrection is worldly?

so iow "yes, when church gets done with it."

 

[Helen]

one decent arg off the top of my head is bc Christ is given a back seat to Santa, etc

If none of it is real...does it matter? Christ is not "in " Christmas.

But I think this thread has wandered far off from subject from the OP.
.....and as Amadeus mentioned, the discussion was about all the open attacks on Christianity.
We've even seen by the natural things..a little child will 'start' as a bully, then he will progress to torturing cats , dogs and smaller children...then as a man? We have all read the stories...
At the moment in west it is still verbal......but that is just "at the moment".
They degrade Christmas because they believe that it is Christian.
The thread is not about whether or what Christians believe about Christmas.
When the chip are down, they wont give a rip if we all believe in Christmas or not, they won't give a rip if we are JW's, Mormons, Catholic or Protestants...the agenda is against all who believe in the living God.

"Coming to a Theatre near you.."

 

[Helen]

@bbyrd009 And, what about you? You do not "throw your lot" in and call yourself " Christian".... Where will you stand in the Day?
Will you stand as a Christian or be a Peter and turn your back saying...I am not one of them?

( I think you are more 'one of us' than you think you are )

 

[bbyrd009]

They degrade Christmas because they believe that it is Christian.

so you say, but many would claim the same perspective illuminated here--that they attack Christmas because "Christian" is so rife with hypocrisy. So what ends up happening, see, is that a "they" is created here, and a motive is ascribed to "them," when "they" might have a perfectly acceptable motive that would make them back into one of "us," if they could but be heard above the noise of Black Friday or whatever lol.

i really don't condemn anyone who decorates trees ok, i will prolly get sucked into it myself, mom is 76 now so ill prolly end up doing it all even, bc i am a hypocrite, too, see. The point i hoped to make was be careful of condemning other ppls pov without hearing them out, and creating a "them" in your mind.

While obviously i detest warped manger scenes myself too ok, i don't mean to condone that, but neither will i judge o matter how tempting that might be. That is likely the whole point, see, is to peer in on a sin, in order to judge others, rather than just ignore them. This is what the MSM is for imo

 

[epostle1]

Legalists? But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

Me thinks the traditionalists are the "legalists". God's Holy Days are in Scripture. I don't need to celebrate something that is worldly. Just look around and open your eyes. The WHOLE WORLD celebrates Christmas. Don't you know that friends with the world is enmity with God?

You have an "us vs them" mentality that is not biblical.
I said it at least twice, Christmas is a secular holiday and a Christian celebration. If you want to call secular "worldly", its not worth discussing. Here you accuse me of being in bondage for observing certain holy days. Show me a verse that says all practices, devotions and even doctrines must be found explicitly in scripture to be valid. You can't. No such verse exists. It's a man made legalistic tradition. You appear to be bound to the letter.

 

[bbyrd009]

the agenda is against all who believe in the living God.

so you say, and maybe it is true in a sense, but a big Q here is will you judge them for this, or not, imo. Bc the bigger agenda might be against hypocrisy, which the church manifests. No one turns away from "Good News," imo, at least until it gets warped out of its frame

 

[bbyrd009]

@bbyrd009 And, what about you? You do not "throw your lot" in and call yourself " Christian".... Where will you stand in the Day?
Will you stand as a Christian or be a Peter and turn your back saying...I am not one of them?

imo that is fair enough from your perspective, however if one is able to see that Christianity is also now represented by the Sanhedrin in that passage, at least Political Christianity is, then another pov emerges, right. Bc of course there are rules (laws) that you could even describe to me for becoming a "Christian," right, not saying that they are a lie or anything, but that we accept one of the many disputed interpretations of these laws, and then do them as we are counselled to, in order to include ourselves in some camp, when the Good Samaritan surely has a better definition of "following Christ."

( I think you are more 'one of us' than you think you are )

yes, sure. And no, depending upon one's definitions. If "Christian" is defined as "someone who believes that Jesus died for their sins, and all they have to do is believe that in order to be qualified to attend a Big Party in the Sky after all of the Bad People get dumped into Eternal Fire, which starts with Rapture, any minute now," then no, even if that is the def i started with myself