Olivet Discourse revisited

[Randy Kluth]

No, it was something said at the temple. The OD started when Christ sat on the mount and was about future events unrelated to what he stated at the temple.

I've heard this argument, and think it is patently absurd or a complete rationalization to get the result you want--not what the Scriptures are saying. There is a single conversation from Jerusalem to the Mt. of Olives, and it all had to do with the same thing--the destruction of the temple. I can never hope to force this belief on you, but since you're making declarations here is mine.

This may have been when Jesus was still in Jerusalem, or just leaving Jerusalem, and specifically the temple area...

Mark 13.1 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Luke 21.5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

But notice how Matthew places the questions that were asked Jesus right after Jesus had left the temple area and had mentioned that it would be destroyed. He is asked "When will this happen?"

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

I'm not sure that Luke even distinguishes the temple court and the Mt. of Olives with respect to this Discourse. They are all taking place as a single conversation from temple court to Mt. of Olives.

If the questions are asked with respect to the destruction of the temple, specifically when this will take place, then Jesus' answer to this question must refer to the temple!

And indeed Jesus answered the question. He said there would be preliminary "birth pains" presaging this event, but that it would take place within a single generation. Did the Romans destroy Jerusalem and the temple within 40 years? Yes!

Not seeing this is utter blindness to me. Believe as you will.... [sigh]

 

[covenantee]

No, it was something said at the temple. The OD started when Christ sat on the mount and was about future events unrelated to what he stated at the temple.

Jesus didn't tell His disciples to go for coffee while He delivered His Discourse.

When He said "you" in Matthew 24:2 and beyond, He was addressing them.

 

[jeffweeder]

No, it was something said at the temple. The OD started when Christ sat on the mount and was about future events unrelated to what he stated at the temple.

Nonsense EWQ.

What were the disciples referring to when they asked the question on the mount??
It is clearly the temple.....,


1 Jesus left the temple area and was going on His way when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to the [magnificent and massive] buildings of the temple.

2 And He said to them, “Do you see all these things? I assure you and most solemnly say to you, not one stone here will be left on another, which will not be torn down.”

3 While Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, and said, “Tell us, when will this [destruction of the temple] take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end (completion, consummation) of the age?”

4 Jesus answered, “Be careful that no one misleads you [deceiving you and leading you into error].

 

[ewq1938]

There is a single conversation from Jerusalem to the Mt. of Olives, and it all had to do with the same thing--the destruction of the temple.

It was not a single conversation nor was any part of the OD about the temple. The temple is not mentioned a single time in any of the gospels that recorded the OD.

 

[ewq1938]

Nonsense EWQ.

What were the disciples referring to when they asked the question on the mount??
It is clearly the temple.....,

Clearly? They didn't even mention the temple in their questions nor did Christ mention the temple one time.

The Preterist mindset is affecting how some read the passage...a doctrinal bias.

 

[covenantee]

Clearly? They didn't even mention the temple in their questions nor did Christ mention the temple one time.

The Preterist mindset is affecting how some read the passage...a doctrinal bias.

So the word "temple" in Matthew 24:1 is not the word "temple"?

The Scofield futurist mindset spawns strange hallucinations.

 

[jeffweeder]

Clearly? They didn't even mention the temple in their questions nor did Christ mention the temple one time.

The Preterist mindset is affecting how some read the passage...a doctrinal bias.

What were the disciples referring to when they asked Jesus that question on the mount??

What do you think? What question was Jesus answering?

 

[Truth7t7]

1. The beast has been around for over 2000 years (Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:11-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 1:7, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-13). No man has lived that long on earth. Only a wicked spirit or an evil empire could possibly fulfil that portrayal.

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Truth7t7]

2. How can a literal human being be literally “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? This would suggest him being in every single unsaved person. Only a spirit can do that.

Your claim is false and twisting the words of scripture

It doesn't state the Man Of Sin is "In Them" as you claim, "In Them" refers to those that perish, as you bend, twist, tear at God's words of truth "Sad"!

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[Truth7t7]

3. The beast carries the allegiance of all the non-elect. No single human being has or ever or will possess that wholesale allegiance. Only a broader worldly spirit enjoys all the loyalty of the wicked.

Scripture clearly teaches that all the unsaved world will worship this future evil man

Revelation 13:8KJV
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The number of a "MAN"!

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Enoch111]

This is either partial preterism, or your own version of it. Either way, the OD events have not happened yet as they pertain to the end times, the events that precede the second coming.

You are welcome to your opinion. Obviously you failed to compare what needed to be compared. There is no "your own version". Do your own due diligence and see it for yourself. If not have a nice day.

 

[Truth7t7]

5. What man possesses 7 heads? These describe 7 wicked kingdoms in history with 7 kings ruling over them. No man can possibly satisfy that.

Scripture interprets the (7 Heads) as being mountains where the woman/whore sits, Jerusalem is this city that sits on 7 mountains as you have been shown several times, more bending, twisting, and tearing God's words of truth

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

[Truth7t7]

7. Finally, what human being in history lives in, and rises up out of, the sea at the end? Such an idea is nonsensical.

"Sea" represents "Multitudes of People" and not oceans of waters as you falsely claim

You continue to bend, twist, and tear God's words of truth, as you have been shown your error "several times", will you continue?

Revelation 13:1KJV
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:15KJV
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

 

[Truth7t7]

There is no need to focus on whether Hal Lindsey is (was) an adulterer or not.

The issue is what he wrote and taught. If indeed he set a date -- and documentary evidence should be provided quoting his own words for date-setting -- then he should never have done such a thing. That does not necessarily make everything else incorrect.

Getting back to the Olivet Discourse IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RAPTURE AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.

Hal Lindsey is an "Adulterer" being married to a 4th woman while his wife lives

Hal Lindsey is a "Corrupt Tree" and can't bring forth good fruit, not my words but those of Jesus Christ my Lord seen below

Matthew 7:16-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[WPM]

.Daniel's (Little Horn), Paul's (Man Of Sin), And John's (The Beast) A Literal Human Man,, That Will Be Present On This Earth At The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

The figure mentioned above will be a "Future" literal human man, and he will be present on earth in a living human body to witness the "Future" second coming and final judgment as scripture clearly teaches below

Daniel's (Little Horn) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

It would help if you actually read other people's posts before responding. I agree that that “the beast,” “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity” will be on the go right up until the second coming, but what I am saying, and where you are disagreeing is that they have been on the go since before John's day and will be on the go till the second coming. Why do you not address the fact that they have been alive for thousands of years? I think you realize that it would destroy your narrative.

I will try and get you to acknowledge and address the clear evidence, although I am not confident. This alone negates your claims.

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

This passage supports the idea that antichrist has existed throughout the intra-Advent period. John describes that time as the last days.

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.”

Here is more proof that antichrist existed back in Bible times. This fits with what Revelation says of the beast. John testifies: “even now already is it in the world.” Antichrist cannot obviously be some wicked leader that is raised up to reign in the last 7 years, last 3 ½ years or last few years before the Lord's return. He must be an influence or agency that has been working in the hearts of evil men for many centuries. Evidently, no wicked human has survived since John's day!

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

Antichrist is clearly not limited to one man at the end as Futurists argue. Antichrist covers the full gamut of those belonging to the devil.

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity [Gr. lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

The first thing we here is that “the mystery of iniquity” was alive and kicking 2000 years ago. Paul confirms what Revelation 17:8 and Revelation 17:11-13 is expressing that this entity was functioning in his day. This baleful influence is not some has evidently been around for a long time. Saying all this, he is depicted as being restrained in this New Testament age up until the end when the restraint will be taken off him. This is clearly talking about his ongoing existence throughout the new covenant era albeit in a curtailed manner. This must confirm the restrained consequences that enveloped the whole kingdom of darkness as a result of the earthly ministry of Christ.

 

[WPM]

Your claim is false and twisting the words of scripture

It doesn't state the Man Of Sin is "In Them" as you claim, "In Them" refers to those that perish, as you bend, twist, tear at God's words of truth "Sad"!

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Who then is “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)?

 

[WPM]

Scripture clearly teaches that all the unsaved world will worship this future evil man

Revelation 13:8KJV
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The number of a "MAN"!

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

You are not answering my Point again.

But what human is possibly going to get the allegiance of all false religious, all carnal political parties, every single tribe, ethnic group, culture and nation?

Revelation 13:18 declares: “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.”

Futurists use this verse as evidence that the beast is actually a human being. But what they overlook is that in contrast to what many people teach, 666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.” There is no “a” in the original Greek. It was added by the translators, most of whom believed the Pope was thee antichrist. The Greek simply reads: gár (for) esti (it is) arithmós (number) anthrōpos (man) kai (and) hautou (his) arithmós (number) chi xi sigma (666).

The word for man here (“anthropos”) is the generic word for mankind, which includes men and women. Six is actually the number of man; it is the number of the flesh. 666 is therefore the number of mankind, not a individual man. 666 in some way illustrates the absolute hopelessness of those that have crossed over the line of reprobation. All those that have been reprobated have finally been given up to their own lusts, whereas those that are “in Christ Jesus … walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1). It is they that refuse the mark of the beast and have their names “written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” (Revelation 17:8).

 

[WPM]

Scripture interprets the (7 Heads) as being mountains where the woman/whore sits, Jerusalem is this city that sits on 7 mountains as you have been shown several times, more bending, twisting, and tearing God's words of truth

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Why do you avoid Points 4?

I will repeat it:

There is nowhere in Scripture that shows human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3). Any time it is mentioned, it is shown to be the exclusive abode of Satan and his demons.

Scripture interprets the (7 Heads) as being mountains where the woman/whore sits, Jerusalem is this city that sits on 7 mountains as you have been shown several times, more bending, twisting, and tearing God's words of truth

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

LOL. Exactly! The beast is symbolic of wicked kingdoms over the years. Hello! This cannot be an actual human. This alone demolishes your speculations.

 

[WPM]

"Sea" represents "Multitudes of People" and not oceans of waters as you falsely claim

You continue to bend, twist, and tear God's words of truth, as you have been shown your error "several times", will you continue?

Revelation 13:1KJV
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:15KJV
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Oh, so you want to spiritualize the sea when it suits your argument but literalize the beast when it suits your opinions. This does not add up. So, it is definitely not a man coming out of the sea.

I actually agree that sea represents people, but you cannot even acknowledge this beast has been on the go for centuries. Every direction you look, your beliefs crumble apart under scrutiny.

 

[WPM]

Getting back to the Olivet Discourse IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RAPTURE AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.

Says who? You? Prove it! You know you cannot.