Olivet Discourse revisited

[WPM]

Your claim the bad guy seen is a general (Spirit) of Antichrist that has been alive for thousands of years is "False"

You have been clearly shown that he will be cast "Living" into the lake fire, Revelation 19:20, his "His Body" is destroyed and given to the burning flame Daniel 7:11

"His Body" read it again and again, and "His Body" isn't 2,000 years old

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

"Cast Alive" Living, read it again and again

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

More avoidance. This is exactly what Scofieldites do. You cannot answer simple questions because it exposes your thesis. Your theology is crumbling around your feet.

 

[Truth7t7]

More avoidance. This is exactly what Scofieldites do. You cannot answer simple questions because it exposes your thesis. Your theology is crumbling around your feet.

You have been clearly answered several times, it's you who avoids the scripture referenced, (The Beast) isn't a (Spirit) as reformed preterist eschatology falsely claims, he has a "LIVING BODY"

Daniel 7:11 "His Body Destroyed"

Revelation 19:20 "Cast Alive"

 

[WPM]

You have been clearly answered several times, it's you who avoids the scripture referenced, (The Beast) isn't a (Spirit) as reformed preterist eschatology falsely claims, he has a "LIVING BODY"

Daniel 7:11 "His Body Destroyed"

Revelation 19:20 "Cast Alive"

I am showing you direct and explicit evidence to prove my position and you avoid it.

You saying "The Beast isn't a Spirit" means nothing. That is your opinion. Address the repeated evidence on the table that PROVES this entity has been on the go since before NT times. Address this. Acknowledge this. Embrace this. It is the Bible! Maybe if you would stop avoiding every argument, someone here might take your posts serious.

I will resubmit, although I have little confidence that you have the ability to address counter-arguments. You have been avoiding biblical evidence for so long it has become who you are.

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

This passage supports the idea that antichrist has existed throughout the intra-Advent period. John describes that time as the last days.

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.”

Here is more proof that antichrist existed back in Bible times. This fits with what Revelation says of the beast. John testifies: “even now already is it in the world.” Antichrist cannot obviously be some wicked leader that is raised up to reign in the last 7 years, last 3 ½ years or last few years before the Lord's return. He must be an influence or agency that has been working in the hearts of evil men for many centuries. Evidently, no wicked human has survived since John's day!

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

Antichrist is clearly not limited to one man at the end as Futurists argue. Antichrist covers the full gamut of those belonging to the devil.

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity [Gr. lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

The first thing we here is that “the mystery of iniquity” was alive and kicking 2000 years ago. Paul confirms what Revelation 17:8 and Revelation 17:11-13 is expressing that this entity was functioning in his day. This baleful influence is not some has evidently been around for a long time. Saying all this, he is depicted as being restrained in this New Testament age up until the end when the restraint will be taken off him. This is clearly talking about his ongoing existence throughout the new covenant era albeit in a curtailed manner. This must confirm the restrained consequences that enveloped the whole kingdom of darkness as a result of the earthly ministry of Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

I am showing you direct and explicit evidence to prove my position and you avoid it.

You saying "The Beast isn't a Spirit" means nothing. That is your opinion. Address the repeated evidence on the table that PROVES this entity has been on the go since before NT times. Address this. Acknowledge this. Embrace this. It is the Bible! Maybe if you would stop avoiding every argument, someone here might take your posts serious.

I will resubmit, although I have little confidence that you have the ability to address counter-arguments. You have been avoiding biblical evidence for so long it has become who you are.

That spirit of antichrist

1 John 2:18-23: “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

This passage supports the idea that antichrist has existed throughout the intra-Advent period. John describes that time as the last days.

1 John 4:1-3, 5-6: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world … They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.”

Here is more proof that antichrist existed back in Bible times. This fits with what Revelation says of the beast. John testifies: “even now already is it in the world.” Antichrist cannot obviously be some wicked leader that is raised up to reign in the last 7 years, last 3 ½ years or last few years before the Lord's return. He must be an influence or agency that has been working in the hearts of evil men for many centuries. Evidently, no wicked human has survived since John's day!

2 John 1:7: “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

Antichrist is clearly not limited to one man at the end as Futurists argue. Antichrist covers the full gamut of those belonging to the devil.

The mystery of iniquity (or lawlessness)

Paul explains in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 of his day, “For the mystery of iniquity [Gr. lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

The first thing we here is that “the mystery of iniquity” was alive and kicking 2000 years ago. Paul confirms what Revelation 17:8 and Revelation 17:11-13 is expressing that this entity was functioning in his day. This baleful influence is not some has evidently been around for a long time. Saying all this, he is depicted as being restrained in this New Testament age up until the end when the restraint will be taken off him. This is clearly talking about his ongoing existence throughout the new covenant era albeit in a curtailed manner. This must confirm the restrained consequences that enveloped the whole kingdom of darkness as a result of the earthly ministry of Christ.

You have proved nothing, you have been clearly answered several times, it's you who avoids the scripture referenced, (The Beast) isn't a (Spirit) as reformed preterist eschatology falsely claims, he has a "LIVING BODY"

Daniel 7:11 "His Body Destroyed"

Your claim the bad guy seen is a general (Spirit) of Antichrist that has been alive for thousands of years is "False"

You have been clearly shown that he will be cast "Living" into the lake fire, Revelation 19:20, his "His Body" is destroyed and given to the burning flame Daniel 7:11

"His Body" read it again and again, and "His Body" isn't 2,000 years old

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

"Cast Alive" Living, read it again and again

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[WPM]

You have been clearly answered several times, it's you who avoids the scripture referenced, (The Beast) isn't a (Spirit) as reformed preterist eschatology falsely claims, he has a "LIVING BODY"

Daniel 7:11 "His Body Destroyed"

Your claim the bad guy seen is a general (Spirit) of Antichrist that has been alive for thousands of years is "False"

You have been clearly shown that he will be cast "Living" into the lake fire, Revelation 19:20, his "His Body" is destroyed and given to the burning flame Daniel 7:11

"His Body" read it again and again, and "His Body" isn't 2,000 years old

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

"Cast Alive" Living, read it again and again

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So what! It is figurative language. The whore is a false religious spirit not a literal woman. Is she a literal physical woman with a literal physical body? Of course not! This fat woman actually sits on 7 mountains at the one time. What are these 7 mountains. They collectively represent the beast. Hello! Open up your eyes! Look at the Book. How can a human being be 7 literal mountains? He cannot! It is figurative language.

You do not seem to understand symbolism or you are extremely selective in acknowledging it when it exposes your teaching.

Your reasoning is absurd and totally contradictory. It has no credibility. I suspect you know that. That is why you keep avoiding the issues, questions and posts above. The reader can see this as they peruse the thread.

 

[WPM]

You have proved nothing, you have been clearly answered several times, it's you who avoids the scripture referenced, (The Beast) isn't a (Spirit) as reformed preterist eschatology falsely claims, he has a "LIVING BODY"

Daniel 7:11 "His Body Destroyed"

Your claim the bad guy seen is a general (Spirit) of Antichrist that has been alive for thousands of years is "False"

You have been clearly shown that he will be cast "Living" into the lake fire, Revelation 19:20, his "His Body" is destroyed and given to the burning flame Daniel 7:11

"His Body" read it again and again, and "His Body" isn't 2,000 years old

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

How can the little horn be "the beast" of Revelation? The beast has 7 heads and 10 horns. The 7 heads are 7 kingdom and the 7 horns are 7 kings. You do not seem to grasp the symbolism being presented.

 

[WPM]

No. You prove it. Show us where the saints meet the Lord in the air within the Olivet Discourse.

So what are you alleging? Are you saying that there are no references in there to Christ's next return?

 

[WPM]

No. You prove it. Show us where the saints meet the Lord in the air within the Olivet Discourse.

We hear a lot of talk today about a “rapture” of the Church before a seven-year tribulation. This popular end-time view in America was invented in the 1800s and is known as the Pretrib rapture. That doctrine teaches that there are two future comings of the Lord. The first Jesus comes secretly to the sky for His saints, the second, 7 years later, when Jesus comes visibly with His saints to the earth.

The only problem is, it is nowhere in Scripture.

The word “rapture” is not even found in our English Bibles or is it in the original Greek. It is taken from the Latin Vulgate New Testament Bible. The word “rapture” is derived from the Latin word “rapiemur” meaning to snatch, grab, carry off, abduct.

So, it is a translation of a translation. I would suggest to you, it is better to use the original text.

It is better to study and use the biblical words/phrases from where we get our English interpretations “caught up” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), “taken” (Matthew 24:35-42, Luke 17:34–37 and John 14:3), “gather together” (Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), “gather together in one” (Ephesians 1:10), “gathering together” (2 Thessalonians 2:1), “gather” (Matthew 3:12; 13:30, 47, 25:32, and Luke 3:17), “gathered” (Matthew 13:40, and 48), “deliver” (Galatians 1:4) or “delivered up” (1 Corinthians 15:24).

The phrases “caught up” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), is taken from the lone Greek word harpazō meaning to seize, catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). It’s carries the sense: to rescue from the danger of destruction.

The word “taken” or “receive” (Matthew 24:35-42, Luke 17:34–37 and John 14:3) is derived from the Greek word paralambano meaning “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation,”

The similar phrases “gather together” (Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27) and “gathering together" (2 Thessalonians 2:1) are taken from the similar Greek words episunagō and episunagoge meaning to gather together besides, to bring together to others already assembled, to gather together against, and to gather together in one place.

There are three other similar Greek words that are used to indicate “gather together in one” (anakephalaioō), see Ephesians 1:10, “gather” (sunagō) see Matthew 3:12; 13:30, 47, 25:32, and Luke 3:17, and “gathered” (sullegō), see Matthew 13:40, and 48. All express the same thought relating to the final ingathering of God’s elect at the end. Another Greek word is used for “gathered” in Revelation 14:19 (trugaō). All these carry the same or similar connotation.

The Greek word sunagō means to gather up or to collect in order to carry off. The word sullegō means to gather together, to draw together, to assemble together. The word anakephalaioō basically means to gather.

The phrase “delivered up” (1 Corinthians 15:24) is also used in the context of the gathering of God’s people at the end. The phrase “delivered up” is taken from the Greek word paradidōmi meaning to give into the hands (of another), to give over into (one’s) power or use, or to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage.

A similar word translated “deliver” is used to express the same idea in Galatians 1:4., Only the Greek word used here is exaireō, meaning pluck out or rescue.

 

[Truth7t7]

So what! It is figurative language.

Nothing "Figurative" whatsoever, it's as "Literal" as it gets

The only way to get your reformed preterist teaching to fit, remove the literal (His Body Destroyed) (Cast Alive) through symbolic allegory, Big Smiles!

It's you who avoids the scripture referenced, (The Beast) isn't a (Spirit) as reformed preterist eschatology falsely claims, he has a "LIVING BODY"

Your Reformed Preterist Eschatology "Fails"!

Daniel 7:11 "His Body Destroyed"

Your claim the bad guy seen is a general (Spirit) of Antichrist that has been alive for thousands of years is "False"

You have been clearly shown that he will be cast "Living" into the lake fire, Revelation 19:20, his "His Body" is destroyed and given to the burning flame Daniel 7:11

"His Body" read it again and again, and "His Body" isn't 2,000 years old

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Paul's (Man Of Sin) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John's (The Beast) Present On Earth At The Second Coming

"Cast Alive" Living, read it again and again

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Truth7t7]

How can the little horn be "the beast" of Revelation? The beast has 7 heads and 10 horns. The 7 heads are 7 kingdom and the 7 horns are 7 kings. You do not seem to grasp the symbolism being presented.

Your claim is "False" as you continue to bend and twist scripture "SAD"!

The scripture before your eyes clearly states The Seven Heads Are Seven "Mountains"

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

 

[WPM]

Your claim is "False" as you continue to bend and twist scripture "SAD"!

The scripture before your eyes clearly states The Seven Heads Are Seven "Mountains"

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

Hello! The seven mountains are the 7 heads of the beast. Stop being so belligerent and evasive.

Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

Revelation 17:3 says, “So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Revelation 17:7 says, “And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.”

What are these seven heads of the beast? We do not have to guess.

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

There are layers to the symbolism of Revelation. The seven heads represent seven mountains, but the next level of interpretation seems to render the seven mountains seven kingdoms which seven kings reign over. After describing the seven mountains, we learn: “And there are seven kings.” Kings reign over kingdoms, not over physical mountains. The fact is: throughout Scripture, mountains represent kingdoms that kings reign over.

The symbolism is very deliberate. Jerusalem is built on seven mountains, so is Rome. The writer takes these and broadens them out to describe global realties. He may well have lent the idea of the Roman empire to impress the wider influence of godless power through the generations by using the symbolism of seven mountains to depict the completeness of the wickedness of this world.

Mountains in Scripture are often identified with kingdoms. The mountain of the house of God is clearly the kingdom of God. Mountains are identified with carnal kingdoms while hills are associated with smaller worldly nations. The seven heads, which are mountains, represent seven carnal kingdoms that have been arrayed against God’s people in Scripture. Of these seven kingdoms, five are prior to John’s prophecy, one present to him and one is yet future. Moreover, the seventh kingdom is predicted to manifest for “a short space.” Interestingly, there is an eighth kingdom. This is the beast himself, obviously rising up in his own right rather than in a delegated sense (through other evil earthly empires) like before.

The woman sitting upon the beast represents the religious harlot sitting upon “seven” secular “mountains” (or kingdoms) ruled by “seven kings.” The seven heads expressly symbolize seven kingdoms before, during and after John’s day. Each has a distinct individual ruler.

The beast is said to be integral to the other seven previous kingdoms; this beast “was” before John – obviously manifesting through the five tributary kingdoms before John, he “is” to John in the form of the one kingdom in existence at the time of John, and one is still future to John as it has “not yet come.” Additional to this we learn, “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” The seven kingdoms are seven heads on the beast – thus the beast is described as being “of the seven.” The seven heads are part of this being. The number seven is significant as it normally represents completeness in Scripture. This book places the beast within the complete scheme of this dark antichrist reign.

This beast obviously represents the overall influence of Satan from which all the other individual kingdoms emanate throughout time. The beast system is that demonic spirit/influence/empire overseeing every wicked kingdom upon earth from the beginning. This worldly beast embodies the wickedness that controls the kingdoms of this world. It seems to influence the overall system that is energized by the spirit of this world.

At the cross the beast went “into perdition” being curtailed in his wholesale deluding of the Gentile people. Notwithstanding, the beast is associated with the reign of evil on this earth throughout this intra-Advent period, although restrained from what the beast would have desired through the Gospel influence. Prior to the end this beast is released from his spiritual restraints and moves to the fore. This is his time to finally flex his muscles. This is his final throw.

As he starts to perpetrate his antichrist agenda, the beast establishes “ten kings” to do his dirty work. These operate from within the beast kingdom. They are described as the beast’s “ten horns.” This reign of havoc only seems to be short: they are said to “receive power as kings one hour with the beast.” There is unity amongst these kings, “These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.” These emissaries of the devil's kingdom promote and enforce the devil's antichrist system.

 

[WPM]

Your claim is "False" as you continue to bend and twist scripture "SAD"!

The scripture before your eyes clearly states The Seven Heads Are Seven "Mountains"

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

This passage strongly shows that the beast existed prior to the day of John, stating, “the beast that was.” Notwithstanding, the terminology that follows appears slightly contradictory – “is not, and yet is.” One could be tempted to reason: it either is or else it isn’t, notwithstanding, this reading plainly says that it both “is” and “is not.” The import of the reading appears to demonstrate that the beast did exist in John’s day, and in fact, before John’s day, but that it had not fully developed into what it would eventually become. There is a saying in Northern Ireland that appears to explain this reading – ‘He is a big fellow, but a wee jacket fits him’ i.e. ‘he is not as big as he thinks he is’. This appears to be the meaning.

Revelation 17:11-13 further enlarges, “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

A plain reading of these passages proves that, whatever the beast truly represents, he/it was expressly in existence before the time that John received this symbolic revelation. The beast cannot therefore merely be a last few years end-time phenomenon, as some would have us believe. After all, he existed before John wrote Revelation. We learn through the apostle’s first century testimony that the beast expressly “was” (past tense). In fact, the passage mentions this fact three times (twice in verse 8, and once in verse 11). Therefore, he existed before John. He also existed at the time of John – who said of his day, the beast “is” (present tense). John then explained that the beast would continue after his day, saying it “shall” be (future tense). In fact, Scripture tells us that the beast, and the false prophet, will only finally be destroyed at the all-consummating second coming of the Lord, where they will be “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20). Why would this world system be destroyed at Christ’s coming and then re-emerge in a future millennium as the sand of the sea?

Having said all this, the terminology that follows is strange and appears contradictory, saying, “is not, and yet is.” One could naturally be tempted to reason: the beast either is or else it isn’t, although, this reading plainly says that the beast both “is” and “is not” at the same time. Whilst the import of the reading indicates that the beast existed in John’s day, it would seem to suggest that it did so in a restrained or restricted manner. How else can we marry the two facts that the beast “is” and “is not” at the same time. The system represented by the beast must have been around in John’s day, albeit in a curtailed manner – a bit like a prisoner that has full movement within a prison, although, he is restricted to particular areas at given times and must continually abide by the careful rules and guidelines that govern his movements within the penitentiary. He has freedom – to a degree, but in another hand he is not free to do as he wishes. The bottom line is: the prisoner would be viewed by every sane observer as bound.

The beast “was” because Satan and his kingdom operated long before Christ ever invaded his territory at the first Advent. He is deemed “is not” because, through Christ's successful completion of His Father’s assignment on earth He roundly defeated Satan in his own backyard and spiritually spoiled his goods and influence. Christ instigated the great triumphant global advance upon the kingdom of darkness. This has inflicted great injury and damage upon the antichrist spirit for near 2,000 years. Christ went forth conquering and to conquer through the successful spread of the Gospel to the nations. The fact is the gates of hell can never prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ.

The beast “is not” because Satan and the beast no longer exercises complete unchallenged control over the nations as he once did before the cross. Revelation 13:1-4 shows that at some stage in history one of the beast’s heads were “wounded” thus incapacitating this evil ogre. This can only refer to the cross and Christ’s great victory over the kingdom of darkness. This transaction placed chains upon the rebellious principalities and powers which remain until Satan’s little season.

The beast “is” (at the time of John's writing) because even though Christ spiritual bound him at the cross, he was allowed to continue to operate for a prescribed period, albeit under very definite limits which God has divinely set. These cannot be penetrated.

 

[Truth7t7]

How can the little horn be "the beast" of Revelation? The beast has 7 heads and 10 horns. The 7 heads are 7 kingdom and the 7 horns are 7 kings. You do not seem to grasp the symbolism being presented.

Once Again, Your Claim In "Bold Red" above Is "False" as you continue to bend and twist scripture "SAD"!

The scripture before your eyes clearly states The Seven Heads Are Seven "Mountains"

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

 

[WPM]

Once Again, Your Claim In "Bold Red" above Is "False" as you continue to bend and twist scripture "SAD"!

The scripture before your eyes clearly states The Seven Heads Are Seven "Mountains"

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

LOL. This is a joke. I never heard anything more ridiculous. The beast is supposed to be a literal person who has 7 figurative heads that actually represent 7 literal mountains in Rome and 10 literal kings? Your theology is getting more absurd by the second and your avoidance more pronounced.

You are obviously making it as you go, without considering all the multiple contradictions of your position!

 

[Truth7t7]

The beast “is” (at the time of John's writing) because even though Christ spiritual bound him at the cross, he was allowed to continue to operate for a prescribed period, albeit under very definite limits which God has divinely set. These cannot be penetrated.

Your claim is false, (The Beast) will be a "Future" literal human man, that will be present on this earth in a living body at the second coming final judgement as you have been shown several times

 

[WPM]

Your claim is false, (The Beast) will be a "Future" literal human man, that will be present on this earth in a living body at the second coming final judgement as you have been shown several times

LOL.

This is total nonsense, and you know it! How about actually explaining how the beast was before John and explain how a literal human can actually have 7 heads that represent 7 hills in Jerusalem. Your whole thesis is ridiculous. Contrary to what you have been taught, he is obviously not literal.

 

[Truth7t7]

LOL. This is a joke. I never heard anything more ridiculous. The beast is supposed to be a literal person who has 7 figurative heads that actually represent 7 literal mountains in Rome and 10 literal kings? Your theology is getting more absurd by the second and your avoidance more pronounced.

Your false claims concerning my response, and are a complete distraction, no claim of literal mountains in Rome were made as you falsely claim, the literal mountains are in Jerusalem

Revelation 17:3 is the symbolic spiritual, John was in the spirit, nothing is literal in verse 3 below as you "Falsely Claim", as the literal interpretation is given in the following verse and you know it, as you bend, twist, tear at God's words

Revelation 17:3KJV
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

 

[WPM]

Your false claims concerning my response, and are a complete distraction, no claim of literal mountains in Rome exist as you falsely claim

Revelation 17:3 is the symbolic spiritual, John was in the spirit, nothing is literal in verse 3 below as you "Falsely Claim", as the literal interpretation is given in the following verse and you know it, as you bend, twist, tear at God's words

Revelation 17:3KJV
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

It matters little if the 7 mountains are Jerusalem, Rome or 7 other mountains. Your thesis is ridiculous. You are now avoiding every single argument that demolishes what you have been taught by Scofield.

Tell us: is the woman sitting on these 7 mountains a literal woman - yes or no.

 

[WPM]

Your false claims concerning my response, and are a complete distraction, no claim of literal mountains in Rome were made as you falsely claim, the literal mountains are in Jerusalem

Revelation 17:3 is the symbolic spiritual, John was in the spirit, nothing is literal in verse 3 below as you "Falsely Claim", as the literal interpretation is given in the following verse and you know it, as you bend, twist, tear at God's words

Revelation 17:3KJV
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

Do the 7 heads belong to the beast?

 

[Truth7t7]

Do the 7 heads belong to the beast?

Once again and again, the scarlet color beast is a symbolic metaphor seen in the spiritual, that is fully explained in the literal interpretation given

The 7 heads are explained to be literal mountains, the 10 horns are explained to be literal kings

It's my belief the 7 literal mountains is where Jerusalem sits as shown

It's my belief the 10 kings will be a future recognized 10 lost tribes of Israel that each have a king/leader, and they will be given power quickly and support (The Beast) in going against a liberal Jerusalem