Once Saved Always Saved (Eternal Security)

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101G

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Understand GG, you cannot go back into the womb, when you're born again you're his. nothing can change that. this is the relationship i spoke of this morning. example for you. if a woman have a child, that child is yours, you LOVE that child. nothing can change that. even if the child go anti social and kills, that's still your child, and you're still that child mother. that don't change. no, you might not like what your child did killed, (here us, sin), but that's still your child. see GG, one need to study relationship, and fellowship. see the fellowship or the enjoyment of that relationship was separated by the killing, hence with God our sins. but the relationship cannot be broken. understand now?
 
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Stranger

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I agree on everything including imputation.
We are not righteous of ourselves, we are imputed the righteousness of Christ.

If the conditions you state above are kept, one can be sure of his salvation.
If one abandons Jesus, he can no longer be saved.
We must abide in Jesus to be saved. HE is the vine that saves us.
John 15:5-6

If we abandon Him and return to a LIFE OF SIN, how could we possibly still be saved?
2 Peter 2:20-22

The walk will be up and down, yes. Sinning has nothing to do with this unless, as I said above, it becomes a life of sin and thus Jesus is abandoned.

As far as my choice. Here's why:

A Calvinist says that God chooses us.
If one falls away, they'll say that the person was never saved to begin with.
The choice is never of the person. He doesn't choose to be saved, and he doesn't choose to become lost again.

Arminianism believes in Free Will.
I choose to accept Jesus as my Savior.
I choose to stay with Him.
I choose to leave Him. (if I want to, although I can't imagine why)

If I end up with the enemy, it will be because of MY decision,
Not because GOD put me there.

That is my reasoning.

I don't believe I gave any conditions to keep. I did say that we by faith are born-again and receive the righteousness of Christ. Faith cannot really be considered a condition for us to keep, as it too is of God and not us. (Eph. 2:8) If we could not get this faith other than being given it by God, how are we to lose it? See also (Matt. 16:15-17) I know of no Scripture that says He takes that faith away.

Concerning (John 15:5-6), abiding is important in our walk with the Lord and producing the fruit of the Spirit. But that is not speaking to ones initial salvation. That is our walk of salvation, or sanctification.

Concerning (2 Peter 2:20-22), this is addressing false teachers and prophets. See (2 Peter 2:1). Because they are false teachers and prophets they do have the truth, but they are not believers. They are false.

I agree with some things in the Calvinist doctrine, but not all. Though I recognize God's work in our salvation, we still come to a decision to be made to be saved. God has not only chosen us, but has chosen the way by which we are saved, (2 Thess. 2:13). Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. John gives a good example of God's will and man's will both being played out. (John 6:44) and (John 6:37)

Something to consider, you had no choice in being lost. It was through the choice of another. We do have a choice to be saved, but then we can see God is behind that also.

As believers, we certainly make decisions that impact our walk with the Lord. And you can end up in a pretty bad way with the enemy, for sure. But, (Ps. 139:8) "...if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there"

Stranger
 
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GodsGrace

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WHAT!, you say that you're a christian, and on the other hand can, or might deny him. that don't wash. did you not hear, "he will never FORSAKE, OR leave US". IF HE DENY US, HE DENY HIMSELF. and that want fly. scripture to back this up, 2 Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself". read GG.
101
I'm not here to teach you anything.
2 Timothy 2:13 does not mean what you believe it does.

Does the bible contradict itself? NO.
Does the Word of God contradict itself. NO:

So then how could 2 Tim 2:12 says that if we deny Him, He will deny us,
and then 2 Tim 2:13 says that if we are faithless, He remains faithful??

God does not remain faithful to YOU if you lose faith,
verse 13 means that God remains faithful to HIMSELF.

He will Always be the Savior. He will save those who will be saved.
Please inform yourself.

And please don't question my Christianity.
I have NOT questioned yours.
 

GodsGrace

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Understand GG, you cannot go back into the womb, when you're born again you're his. nothing can change that. this is the relationship i spoke of this morning. example for you. if a woman have a child, that child is yours, you LOVE that child. nothing can change that. even if the child go anti social and kills, that's still your child, and you're still that child mother. that don't change. no, you might not like what your child did killed, (here us, sin), but that's still your child. see GG, one need to study relationship, and fellowship. see the fellowship or the enjoyment of that relationship was separated by the killing, hence with God our sins. but the relationship cannot be broken. understand now?
Please read The Prodigal Son.
Luke 15:24
The son became DEAD after he left his father.
The father had given him his inheritance and he was to receive no more.

The father says that the son WAD DEAD and had come to life AGAIN.

This means the son was
alive
dead
alive again

When one LEAVES the Father and Jesus who is the vine that gives us life,
he becomes DEAD.
 
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GodsGrace

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I don't believe I gave any conditions to keep. I did say that we by faith are born-again and receive the righteousness of Christ. Faith cannot really be considered a condition for us to keep, as it too is of God and not us. (Eph. 2:8) If we could not get this faith other than being given it by God, how are we to lose it? See also (Matt. 16:15-17) I know of no Scripture that says He takes that faith away.

You did give a condition. Here it is:

But once one is born-again, I believe heaven is his eternal destiny and that will not change. His walk will be up and down, of course, but his eternity is secured.

When one is born again his destiny is eternal and it will not change as long as he remains born again, or born from above. IOW, he must have the Holy Spirit indwelling in him.

If you believe God gives us faith and we have nothing to say about it, you'll have to tell me where our Free Will went. Do you believe we have free will?

Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.
We must have faith to be saved.
If we lose our faith, for whatever reason, we can no longer be saved.
The condition for salvation had been eliminated.

(I don't believe it's easy to lose faith, but we cannot say it's impossible)


Concerning (John 15:5-6), abiding is important in our walk with the Lord and producing the fruit of the Spirit. But that is not speaking to ones initial salvation. That is our walk of salvation, or sanctification.
When we walk with Jesus we produce good fruit. He speaks to this. A good tree produces good fruit.
Mathew 7:17

But in John 15:5-6 Jesus is not speaking of a walk or fruit.
He's speaking of losing salvation:
John 15:5-6

5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Jesus is saying that IF someone does NOT abide in Him, He is thrown away as a branch, then the branch dries up and dies, is gathered and thrown into the fire.
This is speaking about our salvation.



Concerning (2 Peter 2:20-22), this is addressing false teachers and prophets. See (2 Peter 2:1). Because they are false teachers and prophets they do have the truth, but they are not believers. They are false.
It's interesting how we MAYBE decide on a doctrine, read scripture, and understand it according to our doctrine.

2 Peter 2:20-22

2 Peter 2:20-21New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 For if, after they have A)'>escaped the defilements of the world by B)'>the knowledge of the C)'>Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again D)'>entangled in them and are overcome, E)'>the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 F)'>For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from G)'>the holy commandment H)'>handed on to them.


It does not matter WHO it is speaking about. This is what matters:

They had ESCAPED the defilements of the world by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ....they were saved.

They are AGAIN entangled in them (the defilements) and are OVERCOME.
Their LAST STATE is worse than the first.


I agree with some things in the Calvinist doctrine, but not all. Though I recognize God's work in our salvation, we still come to a decision to be made to be saved. God has not only chosen us, but has chosen the way by which we are saved, (2 Thess. 2:13). Sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. John gives a good example of God's will and man's will both being played out. (John 6:44) and (John 6:37)
Your comments do confuse me.
Do we come to a decision to be saved or not?
If so, you beieve in free will and are NOT a calvanist.
But then you say God has chosen us. That IS calvinism.

John 6:44
God draws all men to Himself.
He desires that all men be saved, but not all will.
John 3:16
We must believe. WHOSOEVER.

John 6:37
Agreed.
God will never cast anyone out who wants to be saved.
2 Peter 3:9


Something to consider, you had no choice in being lost. It was through the choice of another. We do have a choice to be saved, but then we can see God is behind that also.

As believers, we certainly make decisions that impact our walk with the Lord. And you can end up in a pretty bad way with the enemy, for sure. But, (Ps. 139:8) "...if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there"

Stranger

Agreed.
Except I don't understand Psalm 139:8
I hope you're not saying that God is in hell (sheoul-which is not really hell).
 

101G

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I'm not here to teach you anything.
2 Timothy 2:13 does not mean what you believe it does.

Does the bible contradict itself? NO.
Does the Word of God contradict itself. NO:

So then how could 2 Tim 2:12 says that if we deny Him, He will deny us,
and then 2 Tim 2:13 says that if we are faithless, He remains faithful??

God does not remain faithful to YOU if you lose faith,
verse 13 means that God remains faithful to HIMSELF.

He will Always be the Savior. He will save those who will be saved.
Please inform yourself.

And please don't question my Christianity.
I have NOT questioned yours.
GG, is not the Lord Jesus the author and finisher of your faith. if he's the FINISHER of it, then he will FINISH IT. he don't lie.

then you said, "God does not remain faithful to YOU if you lose faith".
LISTEN, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous". GG you haven't grown up yet. we're still children, until... as our brother Paul puts it. 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things". he's not FINISH with you yet.... (smile).

be blessed.
 
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101G

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Please read The Prodigal Son.
Luke 15:24
The son became DEAD after he left his father.
The father had given him his inheritance and he was to receive no more.

The father says that the son WAD DEAD and had come to life AGAIN.

This means the son was
alive
dead
alive again

When one LEAVES the Father and Jesus who is the vine that gives us life,
he becomes DEAD.
Read my post 66.
Dead here is not natural death, but spiritually dead, meaning not enjoying the fellowship with his Father. see it goes right back to relationship, and fellowship.
 

GodsGrace

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GG, is not the Lord Jesus the author and finisher of your faith. if he's the FINISHER of it, then he will FINISH IT. he don't lie.

then you said, "God does not remain faithful to YOU if you lose faith".
LISTEN, 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous". GG you haven't grown up yet. we're still children, until... as our brother Paul puts it. 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things". he's not FINISH with you yet.... (smile).

be blessed.
Since I'm a little child, I will not answer you.
However, Jesus did say that the Kingdom of God belongs to children.
So I'm happy.

BTW, 1 John 2:1 does NOT support your point.
 

amadeus

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Well i suppose its more a knowing than a believing, many "believe" in Jesus but not many actually "know" him. Its a bit like the queen, many have read countless books about her, yet they do not know her and certainly are not her friend, because to be ones friend one must spend time with them, So i guess in this account I know I am saved, simply because Jesus is faithful to accomplish all that He set out to do, see He gets all the glory, isnt it so wonderful.

God bless
As I see it all of us begin with belief and as we step out in the faith continuously, God adds some knowledge to us. The difficulty for us is that we are not always able to distinguish between that which is still only belief and that which is knowledge. As we grow in God by continuing to walk in faith so also will the knowledge. Eventually as we approach Jesus more closely...

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

Toward or at the end of our course [time subject to temptation in this veil of flesh] the end or finish of our walk by faith will be here. Knowledge only then.

"...then face to face..." [I Cor 13:12]

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
 

GodsGrace

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Read my post 66.
Dead here is not natural death, but spiritually dead, meaning not enjoying the fellowship with his Father. see it goes right back to relationship, and fellowship.
Oh. You mean when the prodigal son was walking toward the father, he was not dead physically? That is soooo good to know.

If you are SPIRITUALLY DEAD,
YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD.

The spiritually dead do NOT end up in heaven.

Jesus said HE IS THE LIFE.
If You're DEAD, you don't have the life that Christ gives you.
 
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Stranger

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You did give a condition. Here it is:

But once one is born-again, I believe heaven is his eternal destiny and that will not change. His walk will be up and down, of course, but his eternity is secured.

When one is born again his destiny is eternal and it will not change as long as he remains born again, or born from above. IOW, he must have the Holy Spirit indwelling in him.

If you believe God gives us faith and we have nothing to say about it, you'll have to tell me where our Free Will went. Do you believe we have free will?

Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.
We must have faith to be saved.
If we lose our faith, for whatever reason, we can no longer be saved.
The condition for salvation had been eliminated.

(I don't believe it's easy to lose faith, but we cannot say it's impossible)



When we walk with Jesus we produce good fruit. He speaks to this. A good tree produces good fruit.
Mathew 7:17

But in John 15:5-6 Jesus is not speaking of a walk or fruit.
He's speaking of losing salvation:
John 15:5-6

5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Jesus is saying that IF someone does NOT abide in Him, He is thrown away as a branch, then the branch dries up and dies, is gathered and thrown into the fire.
This is speaking about our salvation.




It's interesting how we MAYBE decide on a doctrine, read scripture, and understand it according to our doctrine.

2 Peter 2:20-22

2 Peter 2:20-21New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 For if, after they have A)'>escaped the defilements of the world by B)'>the knowledge of the C)'>Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again D)'>entangled in them and are overcome, E)'>the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 F)'>For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from G)'>the holy commandment H)'>handed on to them.


It does not matter WHO it is speaking about. This is what matters:

They had ESCAPED the defilements of the world by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ....they were saved.

They are AGAIN entangled in them (the defilements) and are OVERCOME.
Their LAST STATE is worse than the first.



Your comments do confuse me.
Do we come to a decision to be saved or not?
If so, you beieve in free will and are NOT a calvanist.
But then you say God has chosen us. That IS calvinism.

John 6:44
God draws all men to Himself.
He desires that all men be saved, but not all will.
John 3:16
We must believe. WHOSOEVER.

John 6:37
Agreed.
God will never cast anyone out who wants to be saved.
2 Peter 3:9




Agreed.
Except I don't understand Psalm 139:8
I hope you're not saying that God is in hell (sheoul-which is not really hell).

Having the Holy Spirit is not a condition to keep. It is a product of being saved.

The only One who has free will is God. We have a will but it is not free. Our will is controlled by the forces around us which put us in position to make a decision. For example, you have two children and you are with them on a boat ride. You have a wreck. The boat sinks. Neither of your children can swim. Each are about 25 yards away from you in different directions. They both cry for your help. You can only possibly save one. What is your will? I suggest your will is that this never happened. But you don't get your will. It did happen. Now you must choose. What is your will? Is it free? Man has a will. But it is not free.

Why did you ignore the point of (Eph. 2:8)? That point being that faith is not of you but from God. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the git of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." So, if our faith is from God, how is it that we can lose it? And what of (Matt. 16:15-17) "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Do you disagree with Jesus here?

(John 15:5-6) is most definitely talking about bearing fruit. You even quoted the verse. And it says in (15:2-3) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." Abiding in Christ is about bearing fruit, not about loss of salvation. The unfruitful branch has become useless to the Lord. So he takes it away just as men do when they gather unuseful branches to be burned. Just because men burn branches doesn't mean this speaks to hell or the lake of fire. Just because the term water is used in Scripture doesn't always mean baptism. Just because fire or smoke is used, doesn't always mean hell.

When you say we understand Scripture based on our doctrine, is that a confession? Or, is that an accusation against me? Or, is that an acknowledgement that both you and I may understand Scripture based on our doctrine. I will assume the latter. To which I am sure is true to a degree. But, I will say this. I was fortunate enough in my early years to be taught by a man whom I have very much respect for. And he said, which I always try and live by, "if your position can be shaken, then it needs to be shaken".

Concerning (2 Peter 2:20-21), it matters very much who is addressed. If the one is not a believer, then it is not a question of a loss of salvation. And they are not believers, they are false prophets and teachers. (2 Peter 2:1) To ignore who is being addressed is to offer much confusion in the interpretation.

I think you need to quit trying to label me. Forget Calvinism and any other. In your generalizations of (John 6:44 and 6:37) you have missed the point. (John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ..." Nothing is said here of him drawing all men to Himself. And in (John 6:37) Jesus says, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." No man comes to Christ unless the Father draws him. All that the Father gives will come to Christ. And the ones that come to Christ will not be cast out. You have both God's will and mans will in operation. But it is God's will first. It is God who gives the ones who will come to Christ. But the ones who come to Christ will make a decision to follow Christ.

You agree we had no choice in being lost. Why then the aversion to our salvation being God's choice?

In (Ps.139) David is saying that God is there with him wherever he goes. You said earlier that if you find yourself with the enemy it is you that put yourself there. What I am saying, what David is saying, if you put yourself with the enemy God is still there with you. He will not leave.

Stranger
 
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amadeus

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GG, is not the Lord Jesus the author and finisher of your faith. if he's the FINISHER of it, then he will FINISH IT. he don't lie.

then you said, "God does not remain faithful to YOU if you lose faith".

We continue to live by faith until the time when it is no longer by faith. Remembering that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, we move from seeing through a glass darkly toward the face to face. If we endure in faith to the end with Jesus, then He will have finished all of the faith and we will no longer simply believe, but we will know. We will no longer see through a glass darkly but face to face [clearly].

Jesus is the finisher of out faith if we by faith allow Him to work in us until He has finished that work: face to face and knowledge are the end of the matter if we have endured with Him. If we have blocked Him by quenching the Holy Spirit in us, then he will be unable to finish the work and we will become blind and we will be forever dead: blind and deaf.
 

mjrhealth

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Jesus said HE IS THE LIFE.
If You're DEAD, you don't have the life that Christ gives you.

I can guarantee I feel more dead than alive at times but that comes with the waiting and the patients that worketh in us
 

GodsGrace

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I can guarantee I feel more dead than alive at times but that comes with the waiting and the patients that worketh in us
As Christians we're not supposed to go by how we FEEL
But by what we KNOW.

You could feel dead at times,
that doesn't mean that you are.

If you're abiding in Christ, you have the light of life,
the life that comes from belonging to the vine.
 

mjrhealth

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You could feel dead at times,
that doesn't mean that you are.

If you're abiding in Christ, you have the light of life,
the life that comes from belonging to the vine.
I wouldnt be here if I didnt believe that
 

tabletalk

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You did give a condition. Here it is:

But once one is born-again, I believe heaven is his eternal destiny and that will not change. His walk will be up and down, of course, but his eternity is secured.

When one is born again his destiny is eternal and it will not change as long as he remains born again, or born from above. IOW, he must have the Holy Spirit indwelling in him.

If you believe God gives us faith and we have nothing to say about it, you'll have to tell me where our Free Will went. Do you believe we have free will?

Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.
We must have faith to be saved.
If we lose our faith, for whatever reason, we can no longer be saved.
The condition for salvation had been eliminated.

(I don't believe it's easy to lose faith, but we cannot say it's impossible)



When we walk with Jesus we produce good fruit. He speaks to this. A good tree produces good fruit.
Mathew 7:17

But in John 15:5-6 Jesus is not speaking of a walk or fruit.
He's speaking of losing salvation:
John 15:5-6

5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Jesus is saying that IF someone does NOT abide in Him, He is thrown away as a branch, then the branch dries up and dies, is gathered and thrown into the fire.
This is speaking about our salvation.




It's interesting how we MAYBE decide on a doctrine, read scripture, and understand it according to our doctrine.

2 Peter 2:20-22

2 Peter 2:20-21New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 For if, after they have A)'>escaped the defilements of the world by B)'>the knowledge of the C)'>Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again D)'>entangled in them and are overcome, E)'>the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 F)'>For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from G)'>the holy commandment H)'>handed on to them.


It does not matter WHO it is speaking about. This is what matters:

They had ESCAPED the defilements of the world by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ....they were saved.

They are AGAIN entangled in them (the defilements) and are OVERCOME.
Their LAST STATE is worse than the first.



Your comments do confuse me.
Do we come to a decision to be saved or not?
If so, you beieve in free will and are NOT a calvanist.
But then you say God has chosen us. That IS calvinism.

John 6:44
God draws all men to Himself.
He desires that all men be saved, but not all will.
John 3:16
We must believe. WHOSOEVER.

John 6:37
Agreed.
God will never cast anyone out who wants to be saved.
2 Peter 3:9




Agreed.
Except I don't understand Psalm 139:8
I hope you're not saying that God is in hell (sheoul-which is not really hell).



I hope you don't mind if I address just one or two of your statements above: "
"Your comments do confuse me.
Do we come to a decision to be saved or not?
If so, you beieve in free will and are NOT a calvanist.
But then you say God has chosen us. That IS calvinism."

I'm in the book of Acts, chapter 22, Paul's conversion: (emphasis is mine)
6. “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8. So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’

9. “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10. So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11. And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.

12. “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13. came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14. Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15. For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ "

This seems to say God chooses us before we choose Him.
 

GodsGrace

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Having the Holy Spirit is not a condition to keep. It is a product of being saved.
Of course. The condition was that if you're born again you have the security of salvation.

The only One who has free will is God. We have a will but it is not free. Our will is controlled by the forces around us which put us in position to make a decision. For example, you have two children and you are with them on a boat ride. You have a wreck. The boat sinks. Neither of your children can swim. Each are about 25 yards away from you in different directions. They both cry for your help. You can only possibly save one. What is your will? I suggest your will is that this never happened. But you don't get your will. It did happen. Now you must choose. What is your will? Is it free? Man has a will. But it is not free.
You're right that only God has free will. You explain free will in a philosophical way -- I'm speaking of free will in a faith way. Did God not give us free will? Do we not choose if our action of for God or against God? Do we have no say at all in the matter?
Deuteronomy 30:15, 19
Joshua 24:15
John 3:16

Why did you ignore the point of (Eph. 2:8)? That point being that faith is not of you but from God. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the git of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." So, if our faith is from God, how is it that we can lose it? And what of (Matt. 16:15-17) "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Do you disagree with Jesus here?
Ephesians 2:8-9
We are saved by God's grace THROUGH OUR FAITH.
It is not our work that saves us, but God's work.
However, we have to be WILLING to accept God's grace and have faith in Him.
If you believe that God does EVERYTHING, then yes, you do have calvinistic tendencies. Which is OK, but you should at least know that you do.
You can lose faith the same way you got it... through not believing, through not having faith. By deciding you don't want to serve God.
I wonder if you know about Justification and Sanctification.
Justifiation is wholly a work of God.
Sanctification requires the cooperation of man. It's an ongoing work which involves man to do his part with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I don't understand your point about Mathew 16:15-17.
Yes, so???

(John 15:5-6) is most definitely talking about bearing fruit. You even quoted the verse. And it says in (15:2-3) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." Abiding in Christ is about bearing fruit, not about loss of salvation. The unfruitful branch has become useless to the Lord. So he takes it away just as men do when they gather unuseful branches to be burned. Just because men burn branches doesn't mean this speaks to hell or the lake of fire. Just because the term water is used in Scripture doesn't always mean baptism. Just because fire or smoke is used, doesn't always mean hell.
You can believe what you will regarding John 15:5-6. It has to do with loss of salvation. If you DO NOT BEAR FRUIT, the branch is dried up and dies and is burned. If you are doing your part, then the Spirit helps you and purges you so that you can do even better. This is plain and simple Language. Jesus did not speak in rddles.

Then you state that Jesus DOES take the unfruitful branch away.
So does He or doesn't He ?

I didn't mention hell or the Lake of Fire. You'll find that VERY RARELY do I mention hell. JESUS said the braches are burned. You could ask the Spirit what HE meant by this.

When you say we understand Scripture based on our doctrine, is that a confession? Or, is that an accusation against me? Or, is that an acknowledgement that both you and I may understand Scripture based on our doctrine. I will assume the latter. To which I am sure is true to a degree. But, I will say this. I was fortunate enough in my early years to be taught by a man whom I have very much respect for. And he said, which I always try and live by, "if your position can be shaken, then it needs to be shaken".
What I mean is that we learn some theology, we read the bible, usually AFTER meeting the Lord. So we learn doctrine from a Church, hopefully. I've had to examine the doctrine I was taught.

So you will post verses that seem to agree with your POV and I'll do the same.
Problem is we cannot both be right.

When I have a doubt, I go to the early church theologians who were the closest to the Apostles and I believe they protected our Christian faith and understood it the best.

Here are some samples of what they thought regarding eternal salvation:



What did the early church teach about salvation and eternal security?



Many of the church fathers living from the first to the third centuries believed and taught conditional security.




They taught that a person was saved by faith through the grace of God but they had to live a life dedicated to Christ until the end. Let’s examine some of the quotes from their writings.




Justin Martyr wrote around 160 A.D.: “I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e., the Mosaic law], and have denied that this man is Christ , and have not repented before death— you will by no means be saved.” [Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1 page 218]




“If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your household will lose all hope of salvation.” [Hermas written around 150 and is quoted from Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2 page 23 as recorded in A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998]




Irenaeus wrote around 180 A.D. “Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.”[Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1 page 525 asrecorded in A Dictionary of EarlyChristian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998]




Clement of Alexandria around 195 A.D. wrote: “It is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope nor the endurance of one day; rather, ‘he that endures to the end will be saved.’”[Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2 page 600 as recorded in A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998] Below are a few of the
source: http://mfchase.net/Documents/Salvation_and_Eternal_Security.pdf



I do hope you consider the above.


Concerning (2 Peter 2:20-21), it matters very much who is addressed. If the one is not a believer, then it is not a question of a loss of salvation. And they are not believers, they are false prophets and teachers. (2 Peter 2:1) To ignore who is being addressed is to offer much confusion in the interpretation.

2 Peter 2:20-2

WHY does it matter who these verses is speaking of?
Is it not clear to you that WHOEVER it is speaking about,
they were once in the world, then became saved, and then became lost again.

THIS is the point. NOT WHO it happened to.

See... we like to understand only what suits us. It's very clear what these verses are saying but you refuse them.

I think you need to quit trying to label me. Forget Calvinism and any other. In your generalizations of (John 6:44 and 6:37) you have missed the point. (John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ..." Nothing is said here of him drawing all men to Himself. And in (John 6:37) Jesus says, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." No man comes to Christ unless the Father draws him. All that the Father gives will come to Christ. And the ones that come to Christ will not be cast out. You have both God's will and mans will in operation. But it is God's will first. It is God who gives the ones who will come to Christ. But the ones who come to Christ will make a decision to follow Christ.

So are you saying that God does not want to save all men?

I posted at least 2 or 3 verses, they mean nothing

John 3:16
FOR WHOEVER BELIEVES SHALL BE SAVED.

1 Timothy 2:4
GOD DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED.

2 Peter 3:9
GOD DESIRES THAT ALL COME TO REPENTANCE AND THAT NONE PERISH.

What is not clear about the above?

Could you post some verses to show that God only wants certain people to be saved?


You agree we had no choice in being lost. Why then the aversion to our salvation being God's choice?
I believe that God has made the way for us to be save.
I believe in God's salvation economy.
The choice to ACCEPT salvation must be mine.
If it is God's, then that IS calvinism. Cavinism changes the nature of God.

In (Ps.139) David is saying that God is there with him wherever he goes. You said earlier that if you find yourself with the enemy it is you that put yourself there. What I am saying, what David is saying, if you put yourself with the enemy God is still there with you. He will not leave.

Stranger[/QUOTE]

If you put yourself with the enemy, God WILL leave.
The Holy Spirit and satan do not dwell in the same space.
 
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GodsGrace

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I hope you don't mind if I address just one or two of your statements above: "
"Your comments do confuse me.
Do we come to a decision to be saved or not?
If so, you beieve in free will and are NOT a calvanist.
But then you say God has chosen us. That IS calvinism."

I'm in the book of Acts, chapter 22, Paul's conversion: (emphasis is mine)
6. “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7. And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8. So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’

9. “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10. So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11. And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.

12. “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13. came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14. Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15. For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ "

This seems to say God chooses us before we choose Him.

Mathew 28:19
Do you think Jesus meant that YOU should go to all the world and preach and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

I believe the ENTIRE bible is for everyone.

There are only a few exceptions.
You've picked one of them.
Jesus needed Paul for a very specific reason.
Paul wrote most of the N.T.
Jesus didn't mean for YOU nor I to write it.

God makes Himself available to everyone and reaches out to every man. It's been happening since Romans 1:19-20.

It's up to US to respond.
Many respond yes.
And even more respond no.

IF God chooses US, the way you mean it, then we HAVE NO CHOICE, other than to say YES.

And what about those HE DOES NOT CHOOSE?

Do you have a choice or not?
 

101G

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We continue to live by faith until the time when it is no longer by faith. Remembering that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, we move from seeing through a glass darkly toward the face to face. If we endure in faith to the end with Jesus, then He will have finished all of the faith and we will no longer simply believe, but we will know. We will no longer see through a glass darkly but face to face [clearly].

Jesus is the finisher of out faith if we by faith allow Him to work in us until He has finished that work: face to face and knowledge are the end of the matter if we have endured with Him. If we have blocked Him by quenching the Holy Spirit in us, then he will be unable to finish the work and we will become blind and we will be forever dead: blind and deaf.
I can't agree with the blindness to DEATH, LOST yes, until he finish the faith. here's why I say this, scripture, Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in".
 

Rollo Tamasi

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2 Timothy 2
12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.


If we stop believing in Him, it means we are denying Him. It means we won't be reigning with Him. When Jesus denies someone, it mean that individual is not saved.

o
This verse is a claim to know God but by their actions they deny him.
(Titus 1:16;)
It is a false profession.
Never saved to begin with.
 
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