Having the Holy Spirit is not a condition to keep. It is a product of being saved.
Of course. The condition was that if you're born again you have the security of salvation.
The only One who has free will is God. We have a will but it is not free. Our will is controlled by the forces around us which put us in position to make a decision. For example, you have two children and you are with them on a boat ride. You have a wreck. The boat sinks. Neither of your children can swim. Each are about 25 yards away from you in different directions. They both cry for your help. You can only possibly save one. What is your will? I suggest your will is that this never happened. But you don't get your will. It did happen. Now you must choose. What is your will? Is it free? Man has a will. But it is not free.
You're right that only God has free will. You explain free will in a philosophical way -- I'm speaking of free will in a faith way. Did God not give us free will? Do we not choose if our action of for God or against God? Do we have no say at all in the matter?
Deuteronomy 30:15, 19
Joshua 24:15
John 3:16
Why did you ignore the point of (Eph. 2:8)? That point being that faith is not of you but from God. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the git of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." So, if our faith is from God, how is it that we can lose it? And what of (Matt. 16:15-17) "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Do you disagree with Jesus here?
Ephesians 2:8-9
We are saved by God's grace THROUGH OUR FAITH.
It is not our work that saves us, but God's work.
However, we have to be WILLING to accept God's grace and have faith in Him.
If you believe that God does EVERYTHING, then yes, you do have calvinistic tendencies. Which is OK, but you should at least know that you do.
You can lose faith the same way you got it... through not believing, through not having faith. By deciding you don't want to serve God.
I wonder if you know about Justification and Sanctification.
Justifiation is wholly a work of God.
Sanctification requires the cooperation of man. It's an ongoing work which involves man to do his part with the help of the Holy Spirit.
I don't understand your point about Mathew 16:15-17.
Yes, so???
(John 15:5-6) is most definitely talking about bearing fruit. You even quoted the verse. And it says in (15:2-3) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." Abiding in Christ is about bearing fruit, not about loss of salvation. The unfruitful branch has become useless to the Lord. So he takes it away just as men do when they gather unuseful branches to be burned. Just because men burn branches doesn't mean this speaks to hell or the lake of fire. Just because the term water is used in Scripture doesn't always mean baptism. Just because fire or smoke is used, doesn't always mean hell.
You can believe what you will regarding John 15:5-6. It has to do with loss of salvation. If you DO NOT BEAR FRUIT, the branch is dried up and dies and is burned. If you are doing your part, then the Spirit helps you and purges you so that you can do even better. This is plain and simple Language. Jesus did not speak in rddles.
Then you state that Jesus DOES take the unfruitful branch away.
So does He or doesn't He ?
I didn't mention hell or the Lake of Fire. You'll find that VERY RARELY do I mention hell. JESUS said the braches are burned. You could ask the Spirit what HE meant by this.
When you say we understand Scripture based on our doctrine, is that a confession? Or, is that an accusation against me? Or, is that an acknowledgement that both you and I may understand Scripture based on our doctrine. I will assume the latter. To which I am sure is true to a degree. But, I will say this. I was fortunate enough in my early years to be taught by a man whom I have very much respect for. And he said, which I always try and live by, "if your position can be shaken, then it needs to be shaken".
What I mean is that we learn some theology, we read the bible, usually AFTER meeting the Lord. So we learn doctrine from a Church, hopefully. I've had to examine the doctrine I was taught.
So you will post verses that seem to agree with your POV and I'll do the same.
Problem is we cannot both be right.
When I have a doubt, I go to the early church theologians who were the closest to the Apostles and I believe they protected our Christian faith and understood it the best.
Here are some samples of what they thought regarding eternal salvation:
What did the early church teach about salvation and eternal security?
Many of the church fathers living from the first to the third centuries believed and taught conditional security.
They taught that a person was saved by faith through the grace of God but they had to live a life dedicated to Christ until the end. Let’s examine some of the quotes from their writings.
Justin Martyr wrote around 160 A.D.: “I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e., the Mosaic law], and have denied that this man is Christ , and have not repented before death— you will by no means be saved.” [Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1 page 218]
“If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your household will lose all hope of salvation.” [Hermas written around 150 and is quoted from Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2 page 23 as recorded in A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998]
Irenaeus wrote around 180 A.D. “Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.”[Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1 page 525 asrecorded in A Dictionary of EarlyChristian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998]
Clement of Alexandria around 195 A.D. wrote: “It is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope nor the endurance of one day; rather, ‘he that endures to the end will be saved.’”[Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2 page 600 as recorded in A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998] Below are a few of the
source: http://mfchase.net/Documents/Salvation_and_Eternal_Security.pdf
I do hope you consider the above.
Concerning (2 Peter 2:20-21), it matters very much who is addressed. If the one is not a believer, then it is not a question of a loss of salvation. And they are not believers, they are false prophets and teachers. (2 Peter 2:1) To ignore who is being addressed is to offer much confusion in the interpretation.
2 Peter 2:20-2
WHY does it matter who these verses is speaking of?
Is it not clear to you that WHOEVER it is speaking about,
they were once in the world, then became saved, and then became lost again.
THIS is the point. NOT WHO it happened to.
See... we like to understand only what suits us. It's very clear what these verses are saying but you refuse them.
I think you need to quit trying to label me. Forget Calvinism and any other. In your generalizations of (John 6:44 and 6:37) you have missed the point. (John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ..." Nothing is said here of him drawing all men to Himself. And in (John 6:37) Jesus says, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." No man comes to Christ unless the Father draws him. All that the Father gives will come to Christ. And the ones that come to Christ will not be cast out. You have both God's will and mans will in operation. But it is God's will first. It is God who gives the ones who will come to Christ. But the ones who come to Christ will make a decision to follow Christ.
So are you saying that God does not want to save all men?
I posted at least 2 or 3 verses, they mean nothing
John 3:16
FOR WHOEVER BELIEVES SHALL BE SAVED.
1 Timothy 2:4
GOD DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED.
2 Peter 3:9
GOD DESIRES THAT ALL COME TO REPENTANCE AND THAT NONE PERISH.
What is not clear about the above?
Could you post some verses to show that God only wants certain people to be saved?
You agree we had no choice in being lost. Why then the aversion to our salvation being God's choice?
I believe that God has made the way for us to be save.
I believe in God's salvation economy.
The choice to ACCEPT salvation must be mine.
If it is God's, then that IS calvinism. Cavinism changes the nature of God.
In (Ps.139) David is saying that God is there with him wherever he goes. You said earlier that if you find yourself with the enemy it is you that put yourself there. What I am saying, what David is saying, if you put yourself with the enemy God is still there with you. He will not leave.
Stranger[/QUOTE]
If you put yourself with the enemy, God WILL leave.
The Holy Spirit and satan do not dwell in the same space.