Once Saved Always Saved (Eternal Security)

[Rollo Tamasi]

How does Jesus shorten those days?

o

Why do you always ask questions?
Don't you ever have any answers?

 

[tabletalk]

Mathew 28:19
Do you think Jesus meant that YOU should go to all the world and preach and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

I believe the ENTIRE bible is for everyone.

There are only a few exceptions.
You've picked one of them.
Jesus needed Paul for a very specific reason.
Paul wrote most of the N.T.
Jesus didn't mean for YOU nor I to write it.

God makes Himself available to everyone and reaches out to every man. It's been happening since Romans 1:19-20.

It's up to US to respond.
Many respond yes.
And even more respond no.

IF God chooses US, the way you mean it, then we HAVE NO CHOICE, other than to say YES.

And what about those HE DOES NOT CHOOSE?

Do you have a choice or not?

A few exceptions, including this? : John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed youthat you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

 

[Stranger]

Of course. The condition was that if you're born again you have the security of salvation.


You're right that only God has free will. You explain free will in a philosophical way -- I'm speaking of free will in a faith way. Did God not give us free will? Do we not choose if our action of for God or against God? Do we have no say at all in the matter?
Deuteronomy 30:15, 19
Joshua 24:15
John 3:16


Ephesians 2:8-9
We are saved by God's grace THROUGH OUR FAITH.
It is not our work that saves us, but God's work.
However, we have to be WILLING to accept God's grace and have faith in Him.
If you believe that God does EVERYTHING, then yes, you do have calvinistic tendencies. Which is OK, but you should at least know that you do.
You can lose faith the same way you got it... through not believing, through not having faith. By deciding you don't want to serve God.
I wonder if you know about Justification and Sanctification.
Justifiation is wholly a work of God.
Sanctification requires the cooperation of man. It's an ongoing work which involves man to do his part with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I don't understand your point about Mathew 16:15-17.
Yes, so???


You can believe what you will regarding John 15:5-6. It has to do with loss of salvation. If you DO NOT BEAR FRUIT, the branch is dried up and dies and is burned. If you are doing your part, then the Spirit helps you and purges you so that you can do even better. This is plain and simple Language. Jesus did not speak in rddles.

Then you state that Jesus DOES take the unfruitful branch away.
So does He or doesn't He ?

I didn't mention hell or the Lake of Fire. You'll find that VERY RARELY do I mention hell. JESUS said the braches are burned. You could ask the Spirit what HE meant by this.


What I mean is that we learn some theology, we read the bible, usually AFTER meeting the Lord. So we learn doctrine from a Church, hopefully. I've had to examine the doctrine I was taught.

So you will post verses that seem to agree with your POV and I'll do the same.
Problem is we cannot both be right.

When I have a doubt, I go to the early church theologians who were the closest to the Apostles and I believe they protected our Christian faith and understood it the best.

Here are some samples of what they thought regarding eternal salvation:



What did the early church teach about salvation and eternal security?



Many of the church fathers living from the first to the third centuries believed and taught conditional security.




They taught that a person was saved by faith through the grace of God but they had to live a life dedicated to Christ until the end. Let’s examine some of the quotes from their writings.




Justin Martyr wrote around 160 A.D.: “I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e., the Mosaic law], and have denied that this man is Christ , and have not repented before death— you will by no means be saved.” [Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1 page 218]




“If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your household will lose all hope of salvation.” [Hermas written around 150 and is quoted from Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2 page 23 as recorded in A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998]




Irenaeus wrote around 180 A.D. “Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.”[Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1 page 525 asrecorded in A Dictionary of EarlyChristian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998]




Clement of Alexandria around 195 A.D. wrote: “It is neither the faith, nor the love, nor the hope nor the endurance of one day; rather, ‘he that endures to the end will be saved.’”[Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2 page 600 as recorded in A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot published by Hendrickson Publishers, 1998] Below are a few of the
source: http://mfchase.net/Documents/Salvation_and_Eternal_Security.pdf


I do hope you consider the above.




2 Peter 2:20-2

WHY does it matter who these verses is speaking of?
Is it not clear to you that WHOEVER it is speaking about,
they were once in the world, then became saved, and then became lost again.

THIS is the point. NOT WHO it happened to.

See... we like to understand only what suits us. It's very clear what these verses are saying but you refuse them.



So are you saying that God does not want to save all men?

I posted at least 2 or 3 verses, they mean nothing

John 3:16
FOR WHOEVER BELIEVES SHALL BE SAVED.

1 Timothy 2:4
GOD DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED.

2 Peter 3:9
GOD DESIRES THAT ALL COME TO REPENTANCE AND THAT NONE PERISH.

What is not clear about the above?

Could you post some verses to show that God only wants certain people to be saved?



I believe that God has made the way for us to be save.
I believe in God's salvation economy.
The choice to ACCEPT salvation must be mine.
If it is God's, then that IS calvinism. Cavinism changes the nature of God.

In (Ps.139) David is saying that God is there with him wherever he goes. You said earlier that if you find yourself with the enemy it is you that put yourself there. What I am saying, what David is saying, if you put yourself with the enemy God is still there with you. He will not leave.

If you put yourself with the enemy, God will leave. The Holy Spirit and satan do not dwell in the same place.

Being born-again is also a product of salvation. It is not a condition we need to keep in order to be saved. Our faith is what saves us. And faith, as I said earlier is not of yourself, but from God. (Eph. 2:8-9) (Matt. 16:15-17) And this was my point about (Matt. 15). Christ asked Peter "whom say ye that I am?" Peter responded, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God." Christ said, "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." This is the faith that (Eph. 2:8-9) speaks of. Even your faith is from God. You believe because God opens your eyes to see and believe.

Yes, of course we have a will. But here again, concerning your salvation, (Eph. 2:8-9) and (Matt.16:15-17) shows it is not free. You exercise your will because God has opened your eyes and given you the faith to believe.

In your description of (Eph. 2:8-9) you still don't put the order right. "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Faith and that not of yourselves. Your faith to believe comes from God. Else you would not believe.

Well, concerning (John 15:1-6), I certainly am not free to believe whatever I want. It is about bearing fruit due to abiding in Jesus Christ. The ones he is speaking to are already saved. (15:3) "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." Then the admonishing to abide in Him. (15:1-7) In order to bear fruit it is necessary to abide in Christ. But they were already clean, saved. Thus if they fail to abide, they do not bear fruit. They don't become unclean, not saved. And as a result there is a judgement. Christ can remove them from service or take them away in death. They no longer are of service to Him on this earth. (Rev.2:5)

Concerning the early writings of the saints, surely we have learned some things in the Scriptures since then, haven't we? Do you think they had all knowledge of the Bible back then. This is the same error as the Reformed Church. They believe what the Reformers believed and anything else is rejected. But the reformers didn't know everything in the Bible either. And did not the Jews believe Christ's teachings were contrary to Moses? So, I have no problem consulting any Christian writers, yet all the while their writings are not inspired by God. Thus if they say something which I believe the Bible disagrees with, then I will disagree with them. This is the importance of Bible study.

Concerning (2 Peter 2:1-22), it always matters who is being addressed in Scripture. I don't see how you can say the 'who' doesn't matter when loss of salvation is the subject. These are false prophets and false teachers. They have the knowledge of Jesus Christ, and have cleaned themselves up as a result. But their nature hasn't changed. The dog is still a dog. The swine is still a swine. (22) Believers are referred to as sheep, not dogs or swine. Our churches today are full of these.

I have never said God did not want or desire that all would be saved. I agree that He does.

Do you think that God does not know where Satan is all the time? Do you think Satan is such that God cannot be where he is. Satan is nothing to God and God can come and go in his place as He so desires. Even if a believer strays away from God, God will be there with him.

Stranger

 

[101G]

This verse is a claim to know God but by their actions they deny him.
(Titus 1:16
It is a false profession.
Never saved to begin with.

I must disagree. God came the first time to recover Israel. and they denied him. and he blinded them UNTIL the gentiles come in. then he will recover them, by making them jealous. Romans 10:19 "But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you". and he said, Romans 11:11 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy". Romans 11:7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded". but be it known of God plan, Isaiah 11:11 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea".

there are many today who claim to know God, so that's nothing new.

peace in christ Jesus

 

[GodsGrace]

A few exceptions, including this? : John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed youthat you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.
Are you saying that God chooses whom He will save?

Are you saying that in John 15:16 Jesus is specifically speaking to His Disciples, who were the Apostles (after His death).

Please make your point.

 

[GodsGrace]

Being born-again is also a product of salvation. It is not a condition we need to keep in order to be saved. Our faith is what saves us. And faith, as I said earlier is not of yourself, but from God. (Eph. 2:8-9) (Matt. 16:15-17) And this was my point about (Matt. 15). Christ asked Peter "whom say ye that I am?" Peter responded, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God." Christ said, "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." This is the faith that (Eph. 2:8-9) speaks of. Even your faith is from God. You believe because God opens your eyes to see and believe.

Yes, of course we have a will. But here again, concerning your salvation, (Eph. 2:8-9) and (Matt.16:15-17) shows it is not free. You exercise your will because God has opened your eyes and given you the faith to believe.

In your description of (Eph. 2:8-9) you still don't put the order right. "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Faith and that not of yourselves. Your faith to believe comes from God. Else you would not believe.

Well, concerning (John 15:1-6), I certainly am not free to believe whatever I want. It is about bearing fruit due to abiding in Jesus Christ. The ones he is speaking to are already saved. (15:3) "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." Then the admonishing to abide in Him. (15:1-7) In order to bear fruit it is necessary to abide in Christ. But they were already clean, saved. Thus if they fail to abide, they do not bear fruit. They don't become unclean, not saved. And as a result there is a judgement. Christ can remove them from service or take them away in death. They no longer are of service to Him on this earth. (Rev.2:5)

Concerning the early writings of the saints, surely we have learned some things in the Scriptures since then, haven't we? Do you think they had all knowledge of the Bible back then. This is the same error as the Reformed Church. They believe what the Reformers believed and anything else is rejected. But the reformers didn't know everything in the Bible either. And did not the Jews believe Christ's teachings were contrary to Moses? So, I have no problem consulting any Christian writers, yet all the while their writings are not inspired by God. Thus if they say something which I believe the Bible disagrees with, then I will disagree with them. This is the importance of Bible study.

Concerning (2 Peter 2:1-22), it always matters who is being addressed in Scripture. I don't see how you can say the 'who' doesn't matter when loss of salvation is the subject. These are false prophets and false teachers. They have the knowledge of Jesus Christ, and have cleaned themselves up as a result. But their nature hasn't changed. The dog is still a dog. The swine is still a swine. (22) Believers are referred to as sheep, not dogs or swine. Our churches today are full of these.

I have never said God did not want or desire that all would be saved. I agree that He does.

Do you think that God does not know where Satan is all the time? Do you think Satan is such that God cannot be where he is. Satan is nothing to God and God can come and go in his place as He so desires. Even if a believer strays away from God, God will be there with him.

Stranger

If I reply, I'll only be repeating. So we'll agree to disagree on some topics.

As far as the early church theologians I'll only say this.
YES. I do trust them.

Who would YOU rather trust?
A man who knew John the Apostle and is relating a belief of his that he learned from JOHN,
or
a writer of 100 years ago or of today that is writing from what he has been able to gleen?

I trust the person who knew John.

You do contradict yourself, but I'm not willing to argue it.
What you say would be very confusing to a new Christian.

 

[amadeus]

I can't agree with the blindness to DEATH, LOST yes, until he finish the faith. here's why I say this, scripture, Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in".

Go forward toward the Light, my friend!

 

[tabletalk]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.
Are you saying that God chooses whom He will save?

Are you saying that in John 15:16 Jesus is specifically speaking to His Disciples, who were the Apostles (after His death).

Please make your point.

You are right, I did not make a point, sorry. Jesus is specifically speaking to His Disciples.
And yes, I believe God chooses whom He will save.
And since this issue has been around for a long time and discussed a lot, I better not continue with my feeble attempt to try to defend it!

 

[GodsGrace]

You are right, I did not make a point, sorry. Jesus is specifically speaking to His Disciples.
And yes, I believe God chooses whom He will save.
And since this issue has been around for a long time and discussed a lot, I better not continue with my feeble attempt to try to defend it!

We don't have to discuss this.
We won't be changing each other's belief.
I do like this topic because it helps new Christians.

I'll only say this.
In your belief, God chooses who will be save and will go to heaven.
And He also chooses who will go to hell.

Think about it.
Is this a loving God?

John tells us that God s Love.

 

[Stranger]

If I reply, I'll only be repeating. So we'll agree to disagree on some topics.

As far as the early church theologians I'll only say this.
YES. I do trust them.

Who would YOU rather trust?
A man who knew John the Apostle and is relating a belief of his that he learned from JOHN,
or
a writer of 100 years ago or of today that is writing from what he has been able to gleen?

I trust the person who knew John.

You do contradict yourself, but I'm not willing to argue it.
What you say would be very confusing to a new Christian.

Thats fine.

Well, the writers of both Old and New Testament were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. As far as each writer was concerned, he was writing his book or letter. But the Holy Spirit in him was adding and contributing to the whole book of the Bible. So each writer would not always know how his writing fit in the whole scheme. Only the Holy Spirit would.

(1Peter 1:10) "Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched dilligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

With the Scripture we have what John wrote. With those that knew John and listened to him and then repeated it, you have that which is not inspired, and you have always the possibility of misunderstanding. See (John 21:22-23) . "Jesus saith unto him,If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not uinto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Well, I may not say to a new believer what all I have said to you. Just like if I get opportunity to witness, I don't try and explain the doctrine of election. All they need to know is that Jesus Christ is the Saviour and they need Him to be saved. But once a new believer starts getting into serious Bible study, he cannot avoid it. If one just reads the Bible from beginning to end he cannot avoid it. And I trust the Holy Spirit to give them what He wants.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Thats fine.

Well, the writers of both Old and New Testament were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. As far as each writer was concerned, he was writing his book or letter. But the Holy Spirit in him was adding and contributing to the whole book of the Bible. So each writer would not always know how his writing fit in the whole scheme. Only the Holy Spirit would.

(1Peter 1:10) "Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched dilligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

With the Scripture we have what John wrote. With those that knew John and listened to him and then repeated it, you have that which is not inspired, and you have always the possibility of misunderstanding. See (John 21:22-23) . "Jesus saith unto him,If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not uinto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Well, I may not say to a new believer what all I have said to you. Just like if I get opportunity to witness, I don't try and explain the doctrine of election. All they need to know is that Jesus Christ is the Saviour and they need Him to be saved. But once a new believer starts getting into serious Bible study, he cannot avoid it. If one just reads the Bible from beginning to end he cannot avoid it. And I trust the Holy Spirit to give them what He wants.

Stranger

Sounds good.
Re the early church theologians not being inspired...

Neither were those who taught you and me, or those who write books, or those who make up new doctrine which did not exist in the church till 1,500 AD.

 

[Job]

Why do you always ask questions?

It's one of the techniques I use to gather information.

Don't you ever have any answers?

What would you like to know?

o

 

[Stranger]

Sounds good.
Re the early church theologians not being inspired...

Neither were those who taught you and me, or those who write books, or those who make up new doctrine which did not exist in the church till 1,500 AD.

True. That is the importance of Bible study. Line upon line, here a little and there a little. (Is. 28:9-10)

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

True. That is the importance of Bible study. Line upon line, here a little and there a little. (Is. 28:9-10)

Stranger

OK!
So much to know...

 

[DPMartin]

I really don't know why I engage with you Job, with your one sentence responses that fit your agenda and glossing over what is written, it must be those grave clothes I see you wearing that need to come off.

don't worry you'll eventually come to the conclusion, there is no value in the conversation you might be trying to have. at least that has been my experience with Job.

 

[DPMartin]

Insults are an indication that your stumped.
They don't bother me. You're the one that has to account for them.

o

hay look everyone, Job is showing us his jag-off supper powers. he can jerk you around all he wants and you can't do a thing about it. look how amazing he thinks he is.

 

[Job]

hay look everyone, Job is showing us his jag-off supper powers. he can jerk you around all he wants and you can't do a thing about it. look how amazing he thinks he is.

Your insults make you sound tiny, weak and pathetic.

o

 

[DPMartin]

Your insults make you sound tiny, weak and pathetic.

o

thanks, and besides, its not an insult its the truth isn't it Job? you posted it, you said it right?

 

[bbyrd009]

How does Jesus shorten those days?

o

i give up, how

 

[Job]

thanks, and besides, its not an insult its the truth isn't it Job? you posted it, you said it right?

You sound jealous.

What exactly did I do to you that's causing you to act so immature?

o