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Ferris Bueller

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If you prefer saying, “I am saved because I believe”, then go right ahead. But as I said, such statement points to you and what you do, and not to God and what God has done. Such statement glorifies and credits the man rather than the Savior.
Paul makes it very clear there is no boast in having faith....

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. Romans 3:27

So don't be afraid to say you are saved because you believed. That's not a boast of self righteousness.
 

Ferris Bueller

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it gives the wrong impression that after Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, that salvation now depends on man, wherein he would only have to do this and that, which I think some calls “steps to salvation”, and may do it any time he so decides to do so.
No one can believe except that God gives them the grace to believe.

by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:8

So don't worry about man somehow earning his own salvation by believing.
 

Enoch111

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And I am trying to do all things, even that small testimony, for the glory of God.
Giving glory to God means absolutely agreeing with His Word. Calvinists DO NOT agree with His Word at all. Yet they claim to be giving glory to God.

How does it glorify God when you deny that Christ died for all humanity? How does it glorify God when you assert that God chooses some for Hell?
 
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
If you prefer saying, “I am saved because I believe”, then go right ahead. But as I said, such statement points to you and what you do, and not to God and what God has done. Such statement glorifies and credits the man rather than the Savior.
Paul makes it very clear there is no boast in having faith....

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. Romans 3:27

So don't be afraid to say you are saved because you believed. That's not a boast of self righteousness.
That’s right there is no boasting in faith. For so, faith is not works.

And I didn’t say that one has to be afraid to say he is saved because he believed. I only pointed out that it points to you rather than God. And that I prefer saying God saved me. I already explained why. And as I said, if you prefer saying that you are saved because you believed, do as you please.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
it gives the wrong impression that after Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, that salvation now depends on man, wherein he would only have to do this and that, which I think some calls “steps to salvation”, and may do it any time he so decides to do so.
No one can believe except that God gives them the grace to believe.

by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:8

So don't worry about man somehow earning his own salvation by believing.
Not that I worry about man somehow earning his own salvation, but that that is not the gospel that the apostles preached. And that such, no matter how man would try to, could not earn salvation by anything that comes from him. I hope you know why is that.

Tong
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marks

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people think they can do every sin under the sun and be rewarded with heaven.
But who thinks that way? I mean, a Christian?

I believe that no sin will condemn me, being in Christ. None. Whatever sin I might commit, it is of the flesh, and I am born again, the spirit child of God. I've been forever separated from all sin, for all time, in Christ. There is therefore now NO condemnation.

I'm not sure how much stronger a statement I could make.

No amount of sin, sin of any degree, would bring condemnation and casting into the Lake of Fire. That is my theological and doctrinal position.

And I'm not thinking this way! Sin is to be overcome in Christ. That's how I think.

My mind isn't just filled up with this sense of permissiveness. If anything . . . my believing that all sin is overcome by trusting in what Jesus has already done, that just sets my bar higher.

OK, you've got one guy who is operation on the idea that he is to grind away at his character until his character supports a more sanctified life, there is the expectation that we have to become stronger and stronger and this will take time to build that good character.

I happen to believe that the flesh is put away when we trust in Jesus to live in His life. There is no, 'getting stronger against sin', ALL sin stops as I'm trusting in God's acceptance of me through Jesus' death.

It's like analog and digital. On the one hand, you've got a person who is slowly improving over time, and that's what we do, and that's good to do. On the other hand, you've got a person who knows that the Spirit life is fully available NOW, overcoming the flesh, the world, sin, everything, completely.

One has a mindset that allows sin to diminish over time. But I know that as I maintain my trust in Jesus, sin ends. Or at least so far as my conscience is aware. I'm not saying I never sin. And to be clear, I'm not saying I maintain this conscious faith at all times.

I have, just the same, learned, that Jesus is our sanctification, and be it to you according to your faith.

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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Predestination and OSAS
Their religious beliefs can merge to a degree on these points, that is the Predestinationists and those that believe in OSAS.
Both are false teachings.
If you track this through history, neither of these beliefs are supported by early Christians or the Church Fathers.
Various forms of Predestination are OSAS by default.
But the modern rendition of OSAS is an abstract of social values and concepts that made their way into some Christian beliefs.
1. Is to embrace or tolerate sinful lifestyles. The rule is to never condemn these lifestyles.
2. That grace covers these sinful lifestyles and forgives them.
3. That heaven is guaranteed regardless of the sins committed.
I have posted a few times the churches worldwide that support LGBTQ lifestyles and some even abortion.
I label some of this as the new denomination, where biblical morals are an option, but socials views are emphasized and protected over and above anything in the Bible. The one sure thing being that evildoers will go to heaven as long as they believe in Christ. Which when you put it in motion means heaven will be full of evildoers. The newer element of this is the support of drug use...legalization, and the dislike of law and order...law enforcement. Usually taking the side of the criminal. Which goes along with their overall religious beliefs that everything should be forgiven and wrong doing should not be punished.

Beyond how all this is going to end up on Judgment Day for them, another danger is how it will influence new Christians that are living sinful lifestyles...Suggesting that there is no need to change and they can live these sinful lifestyles with a guarantee of heaven. This can come back to bite those that preach this because they can be held accountable for those lost souls in hell.
 

Grailhunter

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I believe that no sin will condemn me, being in Christ. None. Whatever sin I might commit, it is of the flesh, and I am born again, the spirit child of God. I've been forever separated from all sin, for all time, in Christ. There is therefore now NO condemnation.

Really!!? Can you read? I will feed your words back to you....I'm not sure how much stronger statements Christ, Matthew, Peter, John, James, and Paul could make.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1Tm:5:20: Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10: 26-31
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2nd Peter 2:4-22
4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment 5: And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7: And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11: Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they nderstand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13: And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Jude:1:15: To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rom:1:32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom:6:12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
 
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marks

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Paul makes it very clear there is no boast in having faith....

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. Romans 3:27
So don't be afraid to say you are saved because you believed. That's not a boast of self righteousness.
However, when you make "staying saved" to become your accomplishment, because you've maintained your faith to the end, this isn't what Paul is talking about there.

Romans 3:24-28 KJV
24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The justifier of him which believes in Jesus. Faith and not works.

But you make faith into your work. Falsely, that is. It doesn't actually become a work. You simply treat faith as though it were. Something you have to do to be saved, keep your faith going. Your accomplishment.

This passage is about something else.

Much love!
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
And I am trying to do all things, even that small testimony, for the glory of God.
Giving glory to God means absolutely agreeing with His Word. Calvinists DO NOT agree with His Word at all. Yet they claim to be giving glory to God.

How does it glorify God when you deny that Christ died for all humanity? How does it glorify God when you assert that God chooses some for Hell?
And here’s the Calvinist mix again. :( Does your argument stand because of your opinion against hem? Bring that issue and charge to them calvinist. I am not a calvinist. I am a Christian.

<<<Giving glory to God means absolutely agreeing with His Word. >>>

1 Corinthians 10:31
Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

See? Even in the little things. In fact, the passage says, “whatever you do”.

<<<How does it glorify God when you deny that Christ died for all humanity?>>>

Would you be specific as to what of the many that Christ accomplished by His death are you referring to in your question?

And do you mean that Christ died to save all mankind (those already dead before His time, those present during His time on earth, and those who are yet to be born), from eternal punishment? If so, I would say that that os a faulty thinking. Did he die for Cain or for those God killed in the flood at Noah’s time? Did He die for pthose God killed in Sodom and Gomorrah? For those the Levites, who sided with God, killed who worshiped the Golden calf? For those whom God delivered in the hands and were killed by the children of Israel? If Jesus did, then it means that He saved all those people from eternal punishment?

It seems to me that your thinking is that Jesus’s death did not actually saved people or did not actually accomplish the salvation of people. What then did Christ accomplished by His death with regards salvation from eternal punishment?

<<<How does it glorify God when you assert that God chooses some for Hell?>>>

I do not believe that God chooses people in that regard, more so assert that.

Tong
R2850
 
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marks

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Really!!? Can you read? I will feed your words back to you....I'm not sure how much stronger statements Christ, Matthew, Peter, John, James, and Paul could make.

You need to reconcile each of these passages to each of the others . . .

Hebrews 13:5-6 KJV
5) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

You've assembled a list of passages of which some are of those who have trusted in their works, and those "them that walk after the flesh", rather than are after the Spirit, that is, the unsaved, passages which admonish Christians to holy lives, judgment for those who reject Christ, reject God.

Don't stop there. Include all those which we present to show the permanence of salvation, and show how these reconcile to your view without changing what they say.

God has promised to never leave me, never forsake me. But you are saying He might? I don't think so.

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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You've assembled a list of passages of which some are of those who have trusted in their works, and those "them that walk after the flesh", rather than are after the Spirit, that is, the unsaved, passages which admonish Christians to holy lives, judgment for those who reject Christ, reject God.

None of this is true it is just away for you to explain away the scriptures that does not fit into your false belief.

We don't always know where our walk with Christ will take us. After I retired I was planning on touring in a large fifth wheel for a while. I am still working on that. Anyway I logged on to this site to take a look at international Christian beliefs. I stepped in to a warzone. The Calvinists were circling the ladies and shooting red bold letter posts of condemnation at them...like they did not deserve to live... (Calvinists generally do not believe in the feminine voice in Christianity. You will notice not too many female Calvinists on this forum.) So after I beat them back I settled in and started reading the debates...They were slinging scriptures back and forth at each other. So knowing that if someone realizes something on their own, the point can be better received. I started giving them hints.

So I went to my database and started posting the lists of scriptures for both sides of the debates. They did not catch on. So I explained why I was doing it. They still did not catch on. I challenged the forum to harmonize the scriptures to come up with the overall meaning....no takers So then they continued to throw scriptures at each other.

If you ever wondered how all these denominations formed, this is mostly how it happens. Some one finds some scriptures they like...mostly how they do here... and pick one side or the other and make a denomination out of it. I have told them several times that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

When you read the scriptures you are reading the religious literary writing style of the era. They did not write things like we write our driving manuals or traffic laws...Can you imagine what driving would be like? The Apostles are not trying to present two different religious beliefs...it is the style. In one place they can discuss the blessing of forgiveness and Grace and in another place list the sins that will send you to hell regardless. It is the writing style of the time period. In its own way they were trying to express a feeling of the divine. Make you think!

So that is why to understand the scriptures you have to consider them as a whole and truth is in the middle or a combination of them. If you go to one side or the other, you are going to be at the extreme ends, you should be able to tell that alone, neither end makes sense.

Centuries later, after they combined the texts in a Bible, people looking at these scriptures, where not able to understand a lot of them. So they came up with the conclusion that if it does not make sense....that is the thing that makes it divine....like God was not smart enough to communicate to us at our level. That He failed at His attempt to communicate with us. So they started to come up with doctrines that made absolutely no sense on the premise that that was what made them divinely correct.

I have explained some of this before...You have to understand the scriptures as a whole or you are not going to understand the Bible and you are likely to develop...formulate some klondike beliefs.
 
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marks

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So that is why to understand the scriptures you have to consider them as a whole and truth is in the middle or a combination of them. If you go to one side or the other, you are going to be at the extreme ends, you should be able to tell that alone, neither end makes sense.
I agree with a lot you say here. So many people leave out of their viewpoints Scriptures which appear to contradict what they think.

I agree we have to understand how there is harmony, and how, if the passages are correctly understood, there won't even appear to be a contradiction.

I further add that if Biblical truth is correctly understood, one should be able to express it in simple Biblical terms.

I know what you are saying, like, Replacement Theology. Some people didn't believe Israel would ever be a nation again, and wanted to find a way to understand what all those passages meant that spoke of the future Israel.

My chief objection in these sorts of advanced debates on doctrine is a failure to take passages for exactly what they are saying. For instance, Colossians 3:1-3, that if we've been raised with Jesus, we will appear with Him in glory. No if ands or buts. No other qualifications given. Can we accept that exactly as stated? Or do we think it conflicts with something else, and we have to choose?

We certainly need to take all Scripture into account, yet still without removing the meaning of any of it.

Much love!
 

marks

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So knowing that if someone realizes something on their own, the point can be better received. I started giving them hints.

Yes, I agree. I use leading questions. I choose my words to show connection to verses and other teachings.

I like to present the most challenging Scriptures, such as this one in Colossians 3 that I keep bringing up. For me, this is the best.

When I was first beginning to really put this doctrine to the test, I spent a year collecting people's lists of verses, from books, from the internet, of all the Scriptures which taught that one who was born again might yet be lost. I examined every single verse in every single list or teaching I could find.

Not a single one of them teaches this. And in fact, all of Scripture supports the doctrine that if one is reborn, that one will never again be apart from God. Not one of your passages which you've posted actually say this. The closest sounding are the Hebrews passages, which have been discussed quite a bit.

But seriously, take this one,

2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This doesn't tell me that the born again may be lost. It does tell me we will all stand before Him to be judged.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

"I never knew you". This is not God's children being cast out of the kingdom.

And it goes on. I don't hold this doctrine lightly, or without examination of the Scriptures.

In holding to the meaning of all passages, this is my conclusion. IF you've been raised with Christ, you WILL in fact appear with Him in glory.

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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My chief objection in these sorts of advanced debates on doctrine is a failure to take passages for exactly what they are saying. For instance, Colossians 3:1-3, that if we've been raised with Jesus, we will appear with Him in glory. No if ands or buts. No other qualifications given. Can we accept that exactly as stated? Or do we think it conflicts with something else, and we have to choose?

Well, here is the deal, Fundamentalism...the Protestant reform had to happen for several reasons. The basic concept of Bible alone as understanding Christianity was a good concept. Because it circumvented a whole lot of false beliefs. Getting back to the basics, because salvation is the most important part of the message... But the concept works against itself for biblical understanding of the details. If we take each scripture literally and standing alone...that is how we get these extremes.

Today the Protestants have a new challenge...they are trying to stick with the basics, but they are being bombarded with social and political views that makes the basics unpopular. So some modify their beliefs to accommodate the socially acceptable lifestyles...but in doing so abandon Christian ethics. voilà! OSAS...live the socially acceptable lifestyles that are biblically defined as evil and still go to heaven.
 

Grailhunter

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Yes, I agree. I use leading questions. I choose my words to show connection to verses and other teachings.

I like to present the most challenging Scriptures, such as this one in Colossians 3 that I keep bringing up. For me, this is the best.

When I was first beginning to really put this doctrine to the test, I spent a year collecting people's lists of verses, from books, from the internet, of all the Scriptures which taught that one who was born again might yet be lost. I examined every single verse in every single list or teaching I could find.

Not a single one of them teaches this. And in fact, all of Scripture supports the doctrine that if one is reborn, that one will never again be apart from God. Not one of your passages which you've posted actually say this. The closest sounding are the Hebrews passages, which have been discussed quite a bit.

But seriously, take this one,



This doesn't tell me that the born again may be lost. It does tell me we will all stand before Him to be judged.



"I never knew you". This is not God's children being cast out of the kingdom.

And it goes on. I don't hold this doctrine lightly, or without examination of the Scriptures.

In holding to the meaning of all passages, this is my conclusion. IF you've been raised with Christ, you WILL in fact appear with Him in glory.

Much love!

Again trying to shoot them down alone...exposes the intent. Together these verses prove that Christ is not tolerant of sin, that Christianity is not a religion of sin and sin some more and be rewarded for it.

Now I gave you what you need to understand...I have done my part...now it is up to you. Got to look at the big picture, because eternity is "the big picture"
 

marks

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If we take each scripture literally and standing alone...that is how we get these extremes.

So then are you suggesting we disbelieve this passage?

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Because this is exactly what it says. If you be risen with Christ, when He appears, "shall ye also" appear with Him. Is that not true as stated?

I think it is. I recommend believing it. Not changing it. Adding something to it. And there will be NO contradiction with any other passage in the Bible. But if you add into other passages, or take away parts, such as,

"then He will say, I never knew you", see, He stopped knowing them, they lost their salvation, like that. But it says I never . . . (just for an example, yes, you have to take everything together, that's my point)

There's no extreme to believing what the Bible says, and this is what it says. For me, the biggest picture in this life that I can see is, What Jesus Did.

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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So then are you suggesting we disbelieve this passage?

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Because this is exactly what it says. If you be risen with Christ, when He appears, "shall ye also" appear with Him. Is that not true as stated?

I think it is. I recommend believing it. Not changing it. Adding something to it. And there will be NO contradiction with any other passage in the Bible. But if you add into other passages, or take away parts, such as,

"then He will say, I never knew you", see, He stopped knowing them, they lost their salvation, like that. But it says I never . . . (just for an example, yes, you have to take everything together, that's my point)

There's no extreme to believing what the Bible says, and this is what it says.

Much love!

Part of the "I never knew you" some interpret that to mean that if you did not repent and change...you were not saved to begin with. I am not saying that. The scriptures taken as a whole clearly describe a punishment for sin....these scripture do not exclude Christians nor are they pointed at non Christians. There is no if's and's or but's associated with these scriptures.

And the Bible can add all it wants. It can have this verse and that verse and people pick one or the other.

No extreme to believing what the Bible say...right...people pick the extreme.
 

marks

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Part of the "I never knew you" some interpret that to mean that if you did not repent and change...you were not saved to begin with. I am not saying that. The scriptures taken as a whole clearly describe a punishment for sin....these scripture do not exclude Christians nor are they pointed at non Christians. There is no if's and's or but's associated with these scriptures.

And the Bible can add all it wants. It can have this verse and that verse and people pick one or the other.

No extreme to believing what the Bible say...right...people pick the extreme.
I'm saying you can't ignore a word or two here and there in favor of your doctrine. "Extreme" is a personal opinion. The Truth may be considered "extreme" by some.

You don't pick one or the other verse, and you don't trim a word here and there. All of God's Word carries it's full meaning. God is not tolerant of sin, and God does not lose any He has saved. Both are true.

Much love!
 
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