Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Yep. Ultimately, believing Christians can not be deceived. In the end, if they fall away it's because they turn away willingly.
Once Saved Always Saved
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Been going through the 1st Epistle From John - In Chapter 3 and 4 it warns against being led astray by the spirit of error - compared to follow what is true by abiding in Christ and Christ in them by the spirit of truth - holy spirit - spirit of Christ - When a person is abiding in faith.
It talks much about the fleshly way compared to the spiritual way and to be careful not to fall away and be lead to having a hard heart of unbelief.
Those who are not believers God can not hear because they have no faith.
Those who are believers God can hear because they have faith.
1 John also speaks about how if someone says that they are Of God yet they hate a another in brother in the faith ~ The person is still in darkness, and not living in truth yet living by the spirit of error.
It talks much about the fleshly way compared to the spiritual way and to be careful not to fall away and be lead to having a hard heart of unbelief.
Those who are not believers God can not hear because they have no faith.
Those who are believers God can hear because they have faith.
1 John also speaks about how if someone says that they are Of God yet they hate a another in brother in the faith ~ The person is still in darkness, and not living in truth yet living by the spirit of error.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
I know lots of long time believers who at one time or an other failed in their faith.
The Lord said "Your faith has made you whole"......yet there are many today who in case of sickness did not get healed.
Are you suggesting they are not saved?
(I just want to make sure I understand your statement properly)
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Some would say "they were not saved in the first place".
They use Judas as an example.
(I heard this MANY times over the years.)
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Ok, so if faith makes one whole.... Christians should not be sick?
And if they are sick, they have no faith, and according to that they are not saved?
Is that your point of view??
(Don't get me wrong, I still believe the Lord can heal people.)
Being sick has nothing to do with abandoning, leaving, walking away from faith.
Everyone is prone to getting sick even getting to sick to the point of dying.
That doesn't mean there are many people who give up on faith when they are sick or dying.
(There may be cases where people do though ?? Right?)
Abandoning faith, leaving faith, giving up hope on God, walking away, - can lead in to having a hard heart and lead into unbelief of trust or hope in God.
Being sick doesn't mean a person abandons faith, or leaving faith, or giving up on hope, or walking away.
It has to be a person making the choice to say , and decide with-in themselves - There is no hope for me in God - There is no reason for me continuing my relationship with God - am going to make the choice to abandon the faith all together, leave faith choose other things over God, going to live by my own ways not Gods ways.
Not to say that after a point of abandoning their faith they can not return.
People can return it is just a choice on the behalf of the person to believe in the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God or Not.
And to make the choice not to be lead astray - > and hold on to hope, and the promises found in God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Does this help you understand my viewpoint better @Triumph1300
What are your thoughts about these things suggested here to you?
Everyone is prone to getting sick even getting to sick to the point of dying.
That doesn't mean there are many people who give up on faith when they are sick or dying.
(There may be cases where people do though ?? Right?)
Abandoning faith, leaving faith, giving up hope on God, walking away, - can lead in to having a hard heart and lead into unbelief of trust or hope in God.
Being sick doesn't mean a person abandons faith, or leaving faith, or giving up on hope, or walking away.
It has to be a person making the choice to say , and decide with-in themselves - There is no hope for me in God - There is no reason for me continuing my relationship with God - am going to make the choice to abandon the faith all together, leave faith choose other things over God, going to live by my own ways not Gods ways.
Not to say that after a point of abandoning their faith they can not return.
People can return it is just a choice on the behalf of the person to believe in the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God or Not.
And to make the choice not to be lead astray - > and hold on to hope, and the promises found in God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Does this help you understand my viewpoint better @Triumph1300
What are your thoughts about these things suggested here to you?
OSAS -
I think people miss the highlight.
Bottom Line - Confession of HEARTFUL belief, comes from the HEART, is required to be a confession from the HEART, FOR A Conversion to be Accomplished.
In today's climate;
Children, Young Adults, Even Adults....
Can go to Church, enjoy the friendships, enjoy the entertainment, enjoy the dressing up, enjoy the food, enjoy the fun activities...
And everyone has their EYE on Water Baptism...
For the Children, the Young Adults, the Parents, the Clerics...
It's an exciting and special ritual CEREMONY, to look forward to, to be part of, for parents children to participate in...
AND where is the highlight of IMPORTANCE on a HEARTFUL Confession?
If there was no entertainment, food, fun, dressing up, ceremony, rituals, flirting, making business deals, flowers, artwork, games, etc,...
* Might there be time for emphasis on an absolute assured Heartfelt Confession?
* Does a 7 yr old even know what a heartfelt confession is?
Matt 21:
Matthew 21:13 "And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer...
It appears many people are hearing the Word of God, and quick to make a Carnal Minded Confession...and Later, announce they no longer Believe.
And then others Attempt to Debate, "such persons" received Salvation, then "LOST" their Salvation, when "they' Changed "their Carnal Mind".
(They were "CALLED". They "HEARD". But they did not " Heartfully Choose " to "Heartfully Confess Belief" IN the Lord God.
In response, the Lord God did not Choose Them.
They were not Given Salvation.
They Forfeited, Lost their Salvation.)
Matt 22
[14] For many are call , but few are chosen.
I think people miss the highlight.
Bottom Line - Confession of HEARTFUL belief, comes from the HEART, is required to be a confession from the HEART, FOR A Conversion to be Accomplished.
In today's climate;
Children, Young Adults, Even Adults....
Can go to Church, enjoy the friendships, enjoy the entertainment, enjoy the dressing up, enjoy the food, enjoy the fun activities...
And everyone has their EYE on Water Baptism...
For the Children, the Young Adults, the Parents, the Clerics...
It's an exciting and special ritual CEREMONY, to look forward to, to be part of, for parents children to participate in...
AND where is the highlight of IMPORTANCE on a HEARTFUL Confession?
If there was no entertainment, food, fun, dressing up, ceremony, rituals, flirting, making business deals, flowers, artwork, games, etc,...
* Might there be time for emphasis on an absolute assured Heartfelt Confession?
* Does a 7 yr old even know what a heartfelt confession is?
Matt 21:
Matthew 21:13 "And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer...
It appears many people are hearing the Word of God, and quick to make a Carnal Minded Confession...and Later, announce they no longer Believe.
And then others Attempt to Debate, "such persons" received Salvation, then "LOST" their Salvation, when "they' Changed "their Carnal Mind".
(They were "CALLED". They "HEARD". But they did not " Heartfully Choose " to "Heartfully Confess Belief" IN the Lord God.
In response, the Lord God did not Choose Them.
They were not Given Salvation.
They Forfeited, Lost their Salvation.)
Matt 22
[14] For many are call , but few are chosen.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Well, Taken, I don't know where you hang around....
Christians in my circle of friends are not like what you just posted.
Makes me wonder where you go to church as far as "denomination" is concerned.
Hello Triumph1300,
Thank you for getting back to me, praise be to God and the Lord Jesus Christ for the ability to have the word of God and find and seek answers and to have understanding of the knowledge of Gods will, spiritual understanding, and wisdom and treasures found in the Father, and the Son of God Jesus Christ.
There are many church groups that resemble as you said and it's sad indeed...many have lost way and purpose as Christians and coming together to forget or minimize extra-worship activities. These congregations soon lose their fire and sparkle for the Lord. The Lord departs from many of them....
Then there are a few, especially smaller congregations that know their first love and where they came from...and are growing in Christ.....
Well, it’s true because Jesus said so. Not because you or I keep believing, but because Jesus said so. Not because we find that reasonable, but because Jesus said so.
Tong
R2853
Well, I hold on to what Jesus said concerning His sheep in John 10, saying “ And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.” So that I believe, that even while perhaps the true Christian, in his weakness and in his yet immature state, may well be led astray by the spirit of error, he will later still go back home to the Lord, the Lord working that out to happen. If he could be led astray by the adversary, the Lord who is more able and more powerful than the enemy, could and would most certainly get him back home. For those given by the Father to him, He will lose none and bring them home to the Father.
But the Lord does not want any of His sheep to be led astray, so that, we have all these warnings, reminders, admonitions, exhortations and encouragements, even the instructions to have nothing to do with the world and not be in company with wicked men, but rather meet with the brethren in fellowship for the strengthening and loving of one another.
Tong
R2854
In my reading, those who turn away willingly and remain that to the end, only shows that they were not of the church of God, or were not among the sheep of Jesus. For if they were, they would have remained in the body of Christ.
Tong
R2855
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Maybe, maybe not. The important thing is that we focus on believing to the very end.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I have said this many times. Several topics have scriptures that will support both sides. Scriptures on both sides that cannot be denied. Most of the time the truth is a combination of them or somewhere in the middle. Finding the truth is the goal.
Sometimes you have to ask...what is it not? Is heaven going to be filled with evil? Would you consider it a reward to spend eternity with evil? Would God reward evil? Is that the message of the Bible, that God in the end rewards evil?
Hello Tong,
Would agree that that God desires for us to trust in Him, and His Son. Not abandoning the faith but staying in the faith. May God give the increase always.
Believe that at any time a person could if they desire walk away from God, if they make the choice to do so, but only God knows the heart of individuals so while you can be set in faith and trust in God completely.
Others however whom may be weak in faith and they may need encouragement in holding on to faith, rather than giving up.
Grailhunter ; if it is possible for me to lay out my belief at the end (Revelation 22)
The only message that can be seen about this in scripture is all people receive resurrection of life (belief), or resurrection of condemnation (unbelief) -
God is going to raise up all people at the end of their life. There will people who will die with a hard heart of unbelief - ~ Though they are going to be resurrected with a spiritual corrupted body ~ Which may not be well equipped to dwell in the light.
These people are raised up resurrection of condemnation ~ Are placed outside the Kingdom of God.
Those who are resurrected of life ~ Are given a spiritual body that is equipped to dwell inside the Kingdom of God where the Father, and the Son are.
Now though do not believe this is a wrong way of seeing Revelation 22; some if not many may disagree ~ So do not believe me but believe God, and in the Lord Jesus Christ.
~ Some believe in something very different than (my own personal scripture supported belief)
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