Once Saved Always Saved

[Tong2020]

I honestly don't think John was a legalist......

Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God... 1 John 3:10​

Yes I agree with John.

John also said, “He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” That is saying the opposite that anyone who practice righteousness is of God, do you agree?

May I ask, do you know or heard of a non Christian, such as a Bhuddist or Muslim, who practices righteousness? Or of those belonging to Christian denominations who believes a different Jesus, or of Christian Judaizers, who practices righteousness? Would you say there are such people?
Would you say that it is possible for such people belonging to those groups to practice righteousness?

Tong
R3155

 

[Tong2020]

The choir knows all about the blood of Christ. What the church needs to learn is that the grace of God in Christ, if you really have it, will have the consequence of transforming you into a person who lives righteously, and that not living righteously is the sign that you do not have the grace of God in Christ that you claim you have.

9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God 1 John 3:9-10​

<<<that not living righteously is the sign that you do not have the grace of God in Christ that you claim you have.>>>

Yes, that may well be an “indication” that one is not born of God. In your words, “sign”. So then it is not what makes one to be not a child of God. In the same way that living a righteous may well be an “indication” or a “sign” that one is born of God. So then, it is not what makes one to be a child of God.

Tong
R3156

 

[Ferris Bueller]

May I ask, do you know or heard of a non Christian, such as a Bhuddist or Muslim, who practices righteousness? Or of those belonging to Christian denominations who believes a different Jesus, or of Christian Judaizers, who practices righteousness? Would you say there are such people?
Would you say that it is possible for such people belonging to those groups to practice righteousness?

No. A lifestyle grounded in the fruit of the Spirit can not be faked.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

<<<that not living righteously is the sign that you do not have the grace of God in Christ that you claim you have.>>>

Yes, that may well be an “indication” that one is not born of God. In your words, “sign”. So then it is not what makes one to be not a child of God. In the same way that living a righteous may well be an “indication” or a “sign” that one is born of God. So then, it is not what makes one to be a child of God.

Tong
R3156

That's what I've been saying all along. With the exception of this...

So then it is not what makes one to be not a child of God.

John does in fact say that if you are not living righteously you are not born again. He says to not be deceived about this matter.

 

[Tong2020]

That IS the problem. His point leads directly to the fact that the church is being destroyed by a teaching that causes many to not rest in Christ. Instead, they are living their old lives in unbelief thinking they are saved, and so they are totally unprepared to meet Christ when he comes back. BB doesn't seem to understand that you aren't resting in Christ if you are living in rebellion of God's commands. The NT uses the Israelites to illustrate this truth for us today. We also won't enter into God's rest if we are living in rebellion to God's commands. Only those who rest from their works enter into rest Hebrews 3:18, Hebrews 4:10. Because only saved people, not continuing in their sin are at rest in God.

I don’t think that he is promoting that Christians can live a sinful life, for after all, they still are saved.

If you think he is promoting that, then you misunderstood what he was saying all along.

I agree with @Blood Bought 1953 that Jesus Christ is our rest. That is the main point he was saying. Don’t you believe that?

Tong
R3157

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That the true Christian have assurance of his salvation or his being saved is not compatible with the idea that he is free to live in sin or reject Jesus Christ in unbelief.

Now tell BB and Behold and HisLife.

I don’t believe they hold to that idea.

Tong
R3158

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In the same way that the true Christian have true faith, faith that abides and continues to the end, is not compatible with the idea that he could stop believing.

Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on the person. This is why the Osas debate exists. You're broad brushing all believers as believers who won't stop believing. When the fact is Osas is true for some believers, while it's not for others. Some want to, and will, continue to believe to the very end. Others won't. The debate won't end until Osas gives up it's fantasy that all true believers won't stop believing.

It’s either such idea is compatible or not.

Whether it is or it is not compatible, does not have anything to do with the person.

Tong
R3159

 

[kcnalp]

Any man who has become a "son of God", SINS NO MORE.

Is that anything like a "Christian"?

 

[Taken]

Is that anything like a "Christian"?

Christian IS A TERM...used for TWO TYPES of People;

1) When a man is Hearing, Learning, Following the Word of God...a man can be Called "a Christian".

1a) Gods Spirit is "WITH" ^ that man.

2) When a man has Heard, has Learned, has Heartfully Confessed his Belief, has Heartfully Surrendered his whole LIFE to the Lord God...

2a) God changes that man. The Lord Gods Spirit is "WITH" and "IN" that man.
That man is "SPECIFICALLY" called;
A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN.

Simply using the TERM "CHRISTIAN"... does NOT "identify"....Which person you are SPEAKING OF.

Full well knowing, you are having a discussion with a person....and each person Disagrees with the other.....USING VAGUE TERMS ...
Makes the "discussion" WORTHLESS guessing work of WHO you are speaking of specifically.

The TOPIC is about SALVATION.
Christian DOES NOT mean SALVATION.

* Christian is a Description OF a particular person....(Gods Spirit WITH that man)
* Born Again Christian is a Description OF a different specific person....(Gods Spirit WITH "and" IN that man).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I agree with @Blood Bought 1953 that Jesus Christ is our rest. That is the main point he was saying. Don’t you believe that?

Of course I do. It's what resting in Christ specifically means that I disagree with BB about. He says the 'believer' is resting in Christ even if they're living in their old life in unbelief (yeah, I know, that's a contradiction). Ask him. He does not know that divine rest is not only the rest from trying to save oneself, but also the rest from the taskmaster of sin. The person who is living in the slavery of their old life is not at rest in Christ. They are not born again.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So you don’t teach that the Christian can not have the assurance of being saved. I got that.

What I don't say is Christians can NEVER have the assurance of being saved. The Bible says a Christian has the assurance of his salvation when he can see the Holy Spirit at work in his character.

Reference scriptures please, that says a (true) Christian has the assurance of his salvation when he can see the Holy Spirit at work in his character.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now that is different from teaching the truth that the true Christian actually have assurance of salvation, right?

True Christians can have the assurance of their salvation when they do things that show they are saved. That's what the Bible says. That is how you have assurance that you are saved. John said he wrote 1 John to tell the church that so they would not be deceived either way.

Scriptures please that says true Christians can have the assurance of their salvation when they do things that show they are saved.

Tong
R3160

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Reference scriptures please, that says a (true) Christian has the assurance of his salvation when he can see the Holy Spirit at work in his character.

OMGosh, Tong, we've been over these several times. Do you really not remember the scriptures that tell us assurance comes from how we behave?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Whether it is or it is not compatible, does not have anything to do with the person.

People either believe, or they don't want to believe. It's about the person and how he responds to the word of God, and God's attempts to plant it in a person and get it to grow. Some just aren't interested in that and reject it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I don’t believe they hold to that idea.

Tong
R3158

You really need to start reading what they're posting.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I don’t think that he is promoting that Christians can live a sinful life, for after all, they still are saved.

BB flat out says you can purposely live a sinful life after believing and you are still saved. He uses himself as an example of that. Ask him. The original Osas says the person who does that was never really saved to begin with. Anti-Osas says, if he was saved, ultimately, he forfeits the opportunity to come back to repentance and is lost.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
May I ask, do you know or heard of a non Christian, such as a Bhuddist or Muslim, who practices righteousness? Or of those belonging to Christian denominations who believes a different Jesus, or of Christian Judaizers, who practices righteousness? Would you say there are such people?
Would you say that it is possible for such people belonging to those groups to practice righteousness?

No. A lifestyle grounded in the fruit of the Spirit can not be faked.

So you would say that all Muslims, Buddhist, all of them for that matter, are all not practicing righteousness, am I right?

What do you say qualifies a person to be said to be practicing righteousness?

<<<A lifestyle grounded in the fruit of the Spirit can not be faked.>>>

So you don’t believe there are no fake righteous people, hypocrites?

Tong
R3161

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<that not living righteously is the sign that you do not have the grace of God in Christ that you claim you have.>>>

Yes, that may well be an “indication” that one is not born of God. In your words, “sign”. So then it is not what makes one to be not a child of God. In the same way that living a righteous may well be an “indication” or a “sign” that one is born of God. So then, it is not what makes one to be a child of God.

That's what I've been saying all along. With the exception of this...

Tong2020 said: ↑
So then it is not what makes one to be not a child of God.

John does in fact say that if you are not living righteously you are not born again. He says to not be deceived about this matter.

As you just said, it is a “sign”. A sign is different from being that which makes the person what the sign points to.

Or are you suggesting that living righteously is, more than being a sign, what makes a person to be a child of God?

Tong
R3162

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I agree with @Blood Bought 1953 that Jesus Christ is our rest. That is the main point he was saying. Don’t you believe that?

Of course I do. It's what resting in Christ specifically means that I disagree with BB about. He says the 'believer' is resting in Christ even if they're living in their old life in unbelief (yeah, I know, that's a contradiction). Ask him. He does not know that divine rest is not only the rest from trying to save oneself, but also the rest from the taskmaster of sin. The person who is living in the slavery of their old life is not at rest in Christ. They are not born again.

What you say there that he means by resting Christ seems contradicting. How can a believer be an unbeliever? So, perhaps all that is needed is clarification.

Can you explain to me what to you is “Jesus Christ is our rest”?

Tong
R3163

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Reference scriptures please, that says a (true) Christian has the assurance of his salvation when he can see the Holy Spirit at work in his character.

OMGosh, Tong, we've been over these several times. Do you really not remember the scriptures that tell us assurance comes from how we behave?

I just want to check them out again. So, I ask for your patience. For I could not imagine how it is with you that you don’t have the assurance through faith in Jesus Christ. Is it not through faith that you are assured that your sins have been forgiven when you repented and asked God to forgive your sins?

The truth is, I haven’t come across any scriptures that tells that we have assurance from how we behave. So there is nothing to remember on that.

Tong
R3164

 

[Ferris Bueller]

For I could not imagine how it is with you that you don’t have the assurance through faith in Jesus Christ.

I do have the assurance of my salvation. And no matter how many times I say it no one listens because they have it in their mind that if you don't believe in Osas you can't have the assurance of your salvation.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Is it not through faith that you are assured that your sins have been forgiven when you repented and asked God to forgive your sins?

It is through the witness of the Spirit in the new creation that gives assurance that you are saved.