Once Saved Always Saved

[Ferris Bueller]

What you say there that he means by resting Christ seems contradicting. How can a believer be an unbeliever? So, perhaps all that is needed is clarification.

I am aware of the contradiction. They seem not to be aware of it. It's amusing sometimes, but mostly annoying.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Can you explain to me what to you is “Jesus Christ is our rest”?

I already did. How did you miss it? Rest in Christ means rest from the burden of trying to save yourself by works, and being at rest from the cruel taskmaster and enslavement of sin.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As you just said, it is a “sign”. A sign is different from being that which makes the person what the sign points to.

That is correct. I've said nothing different than that.

Or are you suggesting that living righteously is, more than being a sign, what makes a person to be a child of God?

With the exception of a few fringe movements in the Protestant church, everybody knows this side of the reformation that living righteously does not make a person a child of God. But for some reason, Osasers can only hear the anti-Osas message as 'works earn your salvation' no matter how many times you explain it to them. It's quite annoying. And it's the main reason I relegate Osas belief systems to that of cultish, programmed, hardened religious movements. It's scary. They are among the most hardened and deafened believers that I encounter. I'm not exaggerating when I say it's scary. The animus and dogmatism of the movement is truly scary. I left a Christian forum years ago because of just a single new person who joined the forum with Osas beliefs who cast a dark, divisive, hateful shadow on the forum and was quickly made a moderator that made it uncomfortable to participate, even in non Osas discussions, so I left. Their doctrine was more important than being a Spirit filled Christian.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So you would say that all Muslims, Buddhist, all of them for that matter, are all not practicing righteousness, am I right?

What do you say qualifies a person to be said to be practicing righteousness?

<<<A lifestyle grounded in the fruit of the Spirit can not be faked.>>>

So you don’t believe there are no fake righteous people, hypocrites?

Tong
R3161

OMGosh, Tong, when are you going to hear Jesus' words and believe them?

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." Matthew 7:15
​

Why do you think for a moment a false prophet of Islam, Buddhism, or whatever is somehow capable of being inwardly the same as a born again Christian? Start believing what Jesus and John say about how you can tell a false believer from a true one. You can tell what's really on the inside of a tree and what kind of sap flows in it's veins by the fruit it bears. Stop telling me false believers are fruit bearers too. They have the leaves, the look of the tree, but they do not have the fruit. Can't you tell the difference in your own life when you didn't have the fruit of the Spirit and when you did? I don't know about you but I'm astounded by the difference between the old me and the new me. There's no way I or anyone else can fake such a change. It is truly a work of God, and God alone.

 

[marks]

Condescension doesn't become believers.

JMO.

Misrepresentation to make someone look bad . . . is lying.

 

[GracePeace]

STILL, they fell under God's wrath because they sinned--the same will happen to us if we live sinfully.


If you are referring to fleshly sins, like those sins they committed while Moses was on Mt Sinai ....God does not like Carnality , no doubt about it....

But if you REALLY want to Anger God—- refuse to Trust Him! God promised to run all of the Enemies Of the Hebrews out of the Land Of Promise. God GAVE the Hebrews the Land.....All they had to do was go in and TAKE what was already Given to them by God.They refused.Why? UNBELIEF. They would not take God at His Word.They Paid a steep price for that Lack Of Faith....

1) Oops! The REASON for their unbelief was their sinfulness--they were consistently going in a direction contrary to God so when God spoke they didn't want to hear it and HARDENED THEIR HEARTS. Again, these are people who had already been "saved by the blood of the Lamb".
2) It's not one or the other. That's a false dichotomy.

This sad story is analogous to those today that refuse to Trust God completely .....God shows in Hebrews 3 and 4 that those today that refuse to REST in the Gospel Of Grace are guilty of “ disobedience and Unbelief”—- Just like the Jews in the Wilderness .They Paid the price for their Unbelief.....God left them to essentially rot in the desert until they died off.....

The passage says sin can harden the heart so that you become unbelieving. Don't know what else to tell you.

Refusal to Rest in the Finished Work Of The Cross, exemplified by not Resting in Paul’s Gospel Of Grace, Given to Him by Jesus personally, and found in 1Cor15:1-4 will have you “ paying a price” also......If you ADD to the Gospel Of Grace ( Lucky Repentance, etc), That is tantamount to not Resting in it.....God will declare YOU —- just like He declared the Hebrews of Ancient Times— Guilty Of “ Disobedience and Unbelief” and you will “ Fall From Grace”.......You, like the Faithless Jews in the Sinai Desert , who rejected what God had already given to you ( a GIFT of Salvation that was to be Received— NOT Earned! ) will get to live out “ your” life in a type of “ Wilderness”......A Beggarly Life Of no Assurance, no Real Peace and no Real Joy.......

I agree that not trusting God is a huge problem... but again it's not "EITHER people can have a problem trusting OR they can have a problem sinning"--both are problems that are addressed in Scripture.

Many here need to pray to God that He show them how to REST in the Gospel Of Grace Plus NOTHING......The Refusal to do this — the INSISTENCE that the Shed Blood Of Jesus is Essential But not Adequate for Salvation is equal to UNBELIEF in the Eyes Of God .A VERY Serious charge......A large portion of the ChurchWorld is “Fallen from Grace “ and doesn’t even know it—- they don’t even know what the term means.....God Bless....

I don't disagree. I think Monergism is idiotic and baseless but I think many would be better off being Monergists nevertheless because it emphasizes trust in God. That said, when you guys ignore Scripture, pretending it doesn't say what it says, it doesn't help anyone trust God--the only people you can help are people who are willing to do mental gymnastics and ignore warning passages. I'm trying to believe ALL of Scripture.

 

[GracePeace]

You seem to be in that confused, “ Fallen From Grace” Crowd by the company that you keep—- Sincere Apologies if you are not....

LOL You mean people who believe Scriptural warning passages? Sure.

 

[GracePeace]

Jesus is Eternal Life.
So, if you reject eternal life you are rejecting eternal security.
This means you reject Christ.
Not a good idea.

"Ehhh! Sorry, Hans, wrong guess!"
Eternal life is in the Son--those who retain the Son retain the life, those who fall away lose the life.

 

[GracePeace]

The idea of "license to sin" which the perverted idea of OSAS, that you misunderstad, has been around since Jude and Paul resisted it.

I agree that "If you believe you can't be lost it's a license to sin" is a bad argument against The idiocy of Monergism.

 

[GracePeace]

OMGosh, Tong, we've been over these several times. Do you really not remember the scriptures that tell us assurance comes from how we behave?

I put him on ignore a while back. No sense wasting my energy quoting Scripture to an intellectually dishonest person. Same goes for "Taken". Completely gone mentally.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Whether it is or it is not compatible, does not have anything to do with the person.

People either believe, or they don't want to believe. It's about the person and how he responds to the word of God, and God's attempts to plant it in a person and get it to grow. Some just aren't interested in that and reject it.

The true Christian have true faith, faith that abides and continues to the end.

The question is, is the idea that he could stop believing compatible with that?

You say maybe and maybe not. Why? Do you not believe that a true Christian is one who have a true faith, faith that abides and continues to the end? For only if you don’t believe in that that your answer would be a valid answer.

Tong
R3165

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I don’t think that he is promoting that Christians can live a sinful life, for after all, they still are saved.

BB flat out says you can purposely live a sinful life after believing and you are still saved. He uses himself as an example of that. Ask him. The original Osas says the person who does that was never really saved to begin with. Anti-Osas says, if he was saved, ultimately, he forfeits the opportunity to come back to repentance and is lost.

@Blood Bought 1953

Do you confirm what @Ferris Bueller says here in his post?

Yes I am aware that you believe that you could lose your salvation by a simple decision to reject Christ any time so will, perhaps depending on the situation.

On the other hand, I, by faith, believe I won’t lose my salvation, because I already made my final decision and have settled it in my heart, to put in God’s hand until my last breath, my life, and have surrendered my will to Jesus Christ regarding such choice. The choice of believing or rejecting Christ isn’t a choice that I have to make no longer. That is what faith is in me regarding that matter. All that matters now to me is to strive to do all things for the glory of God and Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit help me.

That is why I said, the issue of salvation is a matter of faith. If one’s faith is that he believes it is possible for him to reject Christ, then it would be so with him. If one’s faith is that he believes it is impossible for him to reject Christ, then it would be so with him.

Tong
R3166

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
For I could not imagine how it is with you that you don’t have the assurance through faith in Jesus Christ.

I do have the assurance of my salvation. And no matter how many times I say it no one listens because they have it in their mind that if you don't believe in Osas you can't have the assurance of your salvation.

Yes I believe you. The difference between us regarding that is that, is how each of us is assured and what makes us certain of our salvation.

Tong
R3167

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Is it not through faith that you are assured that your sins have been forgiven when you repented and asked God to forgive your sins?

It is through the witness of the Spirit in the new creation that gives assurance that you are saved.

But to be clear, is your answer a yes or a no to my question?

Tong
R3168

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You say maybe and maybe not. Why? Do you not believe that a true Christian is one who have a true faith, faith that abides and continues to the end? For only if you don’t believe in that that your answer would be a valid answer.

Not all true Christians have the good and noble soil of the heart in which Jesus said the word is retained....

But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop. Luke 8:15​

Maybe a true Christian is this, maybe they're not, yet.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The true Christian have true faith, faith that abides and continues to the end.

The question is, is the idea that he could stop believing compatible with that?

Since you are stating a doctrinal belief and not scripture, of course that is compatible with your particular doctrinal belief.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Can you explain to me what to you is “Jesus Christ is our rest”?

I already did. How did you miss it? Rest in Christ means rest from the burden of trying to save yourself by works, and being at rest from the cruel taskmaster and enslavement of sin.

From trying save yourself by works from what?

Rest from the cruel taskmaster and enslavement of sin? Why do you say cruel? Why do you say enslavement?

Before being in Christ, were you in burden of trying to save (from what) yourself? Were you tired of serving sin?

Tong
R3169

 

[Ferris Bueller]

On the other hand, I, by faith, believe I won’t lose my salvation, because I already made my final decision and have settled it in my heart

And that's great. I'm not trying to take that away from you. I believe there really are some Christians who will never go back to unbelief no matter what. The mistake is to broad stroke all true believers as being those who will never deny Christ no matter what simply because they have faith. If that were true the believing/saved Galatians would not have been in denial of Christ in regard to justification, and the Corinthians would have stuck to the original gospel of a risen savior by which they were saved. And the believers in the Hebrew church would not have had to be warned in the manner that they were about denying Christ and going back to Judaism.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
As you just said, it is a “sign”. A sign is different from being that which makes the person what the sign points to.

That is correct. I've said nothing different than that.

...that’s clear.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Or are you suggesting that living righteously is, more than being a sign, what makes a person to be a child of God?

With the exception of a few fringe movements in the Protestant church, everybody knows this side of the reformation that living righteously does not make a person a child of God. But for some reason, Osasers can only hear the anti-Osas message as 'works earn your salvation' no matter how many times you explain it to them. It's quite annoying. And it's the main reason I relegate Osas belief systems to that of cultish, programmed, hardened religious movements. It's scary. They are among the most hardened and deafened believers that I encounter. I'm not exaggerating when I say it's scary. The animus and dogmatism of the movement is truly scary. I left a Christian forum years ago because of just a single new person who joined the forum with Osas beliefs who cast a dark, divisive, hateful shadow on the forum and was quickly made a moderator that made it uncomfortable to participate, even in non Osas discussions, so I left. Their doctrine was more important than being a Spirit filled Christian.

Never mind what osasers or non-osasers say and believe. I am interested in you. So let’s try not put in the mix those things. Time to put those behind us.

So, perhaps you can go back to my question.

“are you suggesting that living righteously is, more than being a sign, what makes a person to be a child of God?”

Tong
R3170

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Rest from the cruel taskmaster and enslavement of sin? Why do you say cruel? Why do you say enslavement?

Did you forget what life before Christ was like, and why you got born again?