Once Saved Always Saved

[Ferris Bueller]

You are so right....As I was writing some answers myself I had to asked myself where did I fall at...
and it was the Give me, Give me Give me state and not Lord How can I please you....

It's a hard lesson. Instead of dictating to God what to do and how to do it we are to submit ourselves to what he knows best to do and how to do it. I still cringe at the words I'm typing, but I know in my heart it's the truth. Experience is showing me it's true.

 

[Corlove13]

That shows that he not only knows you, but knows you intimately, and that you in turn know him intimately. Like how you know a wife knows her husband intimately by the fact that she bears the fruit of that intimate relationship. What the relationship bears, or doesn't bear, is the sign of the level of intimacy of that relationship, not if a relationship exists at all.

In the light of all this Osas stuff, I think it is those who have yet to know Christ intimately who have the potential to fall away and be lost. I think the Parable of the Sower shows us that. He said the seed of the word remains in the soil in perseverance in the mature believer, the fruit bearing believer. But it can be potentially cast out of the soil of the immature believer who has yet to come into an intimate relationship with God (i.e. the Galatians - Galatians 4:9).

Just seen this post....This is true.
And this is why I was trying to Explain the the Disciples preached the Kingdom of God
It's availability by putting their Confidence
In Jesus.

EPHESIANS 1:13 shows that after they heard the Gospel "Jesus" and believed they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

It doesnt say after they Trusted His blood to secure heaven when they died...that they were sealed.

When OSASERs can see that they do not have to wait until they die to have heaven in them... then may see that one enters the kingdom Now.....

How they must view eternal life expressed in the Bible I dont know. Scripture says I give them Eternal life.....but goes on to say where life is located....in His Son. So How does one lay hold of the Life that is in His Son?...
By continually living out the Life of Christ.

So scripture defines eternal life in terms of relationship
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom thou hast sent.

And then what does John say......Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. JOHN 14:23

 

[Ferris Bueller]

We have to “ Perservere”—— that “ Perserverance Power” is a gift from God—- just like “ Holiness” and “Righteousness”......Whatever God demands.....God Provides.......

Very true, but we have to accept and retain that gift. That is evidenced by the fact that true believers can fall away into unbelief, as even you agree can happen. So we know it is incumbent upon the believer to remain a believer. And Christ made it very clear that his promises were for believing people, not people who never believed, or people who don't believe anymore. Those people are not among those Christ said have eternal life. Only believing people have eternal life.

 

[Corlove13]

It's a hard lesson. Instead of dictating to God what to do and how to do it we are to submit ourselves to what he knows best to do and how to do it. I still cringe at the words I'm typing, but I know in my heart it's the truth. Experience is showing me it's true.

Reminds me of Job.....my thoughts are
He did all the right things in His mind and..in a sense it comes a little self righteous. Thinking that God owes you....but it's a lesson to be learned from.

 

[BarneyFife]

Barney, Precious friend, we are not here to "change anyone's mind," having respect
for THEIR right to express opinions.

Our work for God is to "simply PLANT and WATER Seeds Of The WORD,"
And, IF It Is HIS WILL: "...God Gives The Increase!..."

(1 Corinthians 3 : 8-15 KJB!). Amen?​

AMEN (in principle)

But are we not all too often simply PLANTING and WATERING the opinions WE have the all-important right to express? In any case, The WORD says we should avoid contentious discussions, all the while contending for the faith. It is a paradoxical balancing act, to be sure, which many do not at all appreciate, unfortunately. My-way-or-the-highway seems to be the prevailing attitude with many of these pet doctrines, especially when it comes to "qualifying" as a believer of orthodoxy. The sincerity of one's profession is constantly called into question in these apparently unprofitable discussions. Victories are claimed as if a thread was a courtroom or competitive sport.

Sorry for the bluntness, but it's not always easy to know when and where it's warranted (and it is warranted at times). :);):cool:

 

[BarneyFife]

Interesting way of putting it. But yes, many receive Christ for his benefits, but not for *him.* We must want the *person* of Christ, and not just his "power" and "blessings." Sometimes it's even "popular" to be a Christian. But the day comes when it is unpopular and one must choose who he loves more--God or the world.

Very good stuff, RK.

 

[BarneyFife]

Those who put their Faith in the Blood Plus NOTHING “ ARE” the closest to Jesus.....you don’t get it ...o am not surprised....Dallas Willard , whoever that idiot is, can kiss me where the sun doesn’t shine and I ain't talking about London... God help any man that would Trample the Blood Of Jesus in this manner....Ferris should be ashamed for liking that post...

If not for Christ’s Shed Blood That is splattered on a Heavenly Mercy Seat.....this entire Universe would be Eternally Damned....Damned with absolutely NO hope....and some are ignorant enough to bad- mouth it....May God have Mercy on that ignorant Fool, Mr. Willard....

I see you're up to your old, vitriolic ways again. Why must you be so mean, BB? Are you altogether sure it is not you who should be ashamed?

 

[BarneyFife]

Yes, I see why prayer is so important in other ways.....It communicates we want what He wants and need Him .....

Yes, yes. Prayer is primarily designed for aligning ourselves with God's will.

 

[BarneyFife]

I appreciate your stance against the works gospel. And certainly every unbeliever that thumbs his nose to the grace of God and never receives it is treating the grace of God offered him with contempt, but truthfully, the trampling of Jesus that Hebrews 10:26-31 is addressing is not about that contempt for God's grace. It's about receiving the grace of God in Christ and then insulting the Spirit of grace by then rejecting it and purposely living in unbelief in the sin that grace delivered you from.

I assure you Hebrews 10:26-31 is likened to a judge who lets a young guilty criminal offender off the hook and lets him go back to society without punishment because the judge thinks he'll straighten up and turn away from his life of crime only to then have that person purposely despise the grace and mercy he was given by going back to his life of crime. The judge isn't going to let him off next time he's in their court room. All that person has to look forward to is the unmitigated wrath of the judge who had mercy on him. This time he won't be treated any different than any other guilty criminal who comes before the judge. Wouldn't want to be him! It's a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry judge! But that's what the saved person who purposely goes back to unbelief and his old life of sin has to look forward to.

You're doing it to me again, FB. lol

 

[BarneyFife]

Just seen this post....This is true.
And this is why I was trying to Explain the the Disciples preached the Kingdom of God
It's availability by putting their Confidence
In Jesus.

EPHESIANS 1:13 shows that after they heard the Gospel "Jesus" and believed they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

It doesnt say after they Trusted His blood to secure heaven when they died...that they were sealed.

When OSASERs can see that they do not have to wait until they die to have heaven in them... then may see that one enters the kingdom Now.....

How they must view eternal life expressed in the Bible I dont know. Scripture says I give them Eternal life.....but goes on to say where life is located....in His Son. So How does one lay hold of the Life that is in His Son?...
By continually living out the Life of Christ.

So scripture defines eternal life in terms of relationship
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom thou hast sent.

And then what does John say......Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. JOHN 14:23

This is incredibly good stuff, CL. How many do not realize that eternal life begins today? Millions. Always looking back or forward. We are seated with Christ in Heavenly places. Today is the day of salvation. :)

 

[BarneyFife]

Grace and faith go hand in hand.

Ephesians 2:8 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Does the context of Ephesians 2:8 support your theory?
Can there not be divine grace imparted to those who exercise no faith? Why do we not all perish the moment we have our first evil thought? Does the principle of grace through faith truly mean grace and faith are hand-in-hand? The grace of God that leads to salvation has appeared to all men. Have all men exercised faith in the salvation offered?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You're doing it to me again, FB. lol

What am I doing, lol?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Really? You are suggesting that Jesus was referring to Judas? To Caiaphas?

Not specifically. I'm showing you that at this time before the resurrection and the institution of the New Covenant certain unbelievers can indeed have legitimate gifts of the Spirit by virtue of holding an official office of ministry. If you are familiar with the old testament you'll see this to be true. I'm citing two examples right from Jesus' day.

So to whom are you saying Jesus was referring to?

Tong2020 said: ↑
First those are only two. Then Judas isn’t even a leader of Israel.

Uh, yes, the Apostles are in fact leaders of Israel. They were appointed by Christ himself. They are the foundation of the church. Judas just proved to not be worthy of his appointment. And neither are most of the other 'spiritual' leaders appointed to office in Israel throughout their history, but who had legitimate powers of ministry, nonetheless.

Then show how Judas was a leader of Israel, since you refer to him.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Then Caiaphas, do you take him as one of them who have cast out demons, prophesy, and did wonders in the name of Jesus Christ?

Didn't you even read the John 11:49-51 reference I gave you?

49But one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”51Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation​

If you're not familiar with the old covenant it'll be hard for you to accept that old covenant leaders were given legitimate gifts of the Spirit by virtue of their office, not by virtue of their relationship with God.

So, it is confirmed that you refer to Caiaphas as numbered among those many mentioned in Mt.7:23, right? But that would be a mistake.

Tong
R3303

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<It clearly shows you can be in the light but not of the light.>>>

Could you be in Christ but not of Christ?

<<<For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.>>>

What do you mean to point out by that about justification? Are you saying that justification is by doing what the law says?

There is a saying Christ is in you but are you in Christ.

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test? 2 Cor 13:5

Tong-Are you saying that justification is by doing what the law says?
Remember we had this discussion how we uphold the Law through faith. That the law was not the source of salvation but forever the course? What do you think it means in Ezekiel: And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Sorry but you did not answer my questions:

Could you be in Christ but not of Christ?

Are you saying that justification is by doing what the law says?

Tong
R3304

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And you only referred to Judas and Caiaphas as to whom He is referring to....

I don't think Caiaphas ever pretended to be a believer. And that's not the point I was trying to make anyway. I'm proving to you, using his example right from Jesus' day, that an unbeliever can have a legitimate gift of the Spirit. I don't believe that's true now after the resurrection.

Well you brought up their names. Now if that was the point you are making in bringing their names up, you are pointing and proving something that is not the issue under discussion.

Tong
R3305

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
...tell us who you say was Jesus talking to there, besides the two.

He probably was not talking to Caiaphas. That was not the point, lol.

He was probably talking about the Pharisees and the Scribes who listened to Jesus' teachings in the streets. For one, the context of the passage is false prophets/teachers, and two, at this time only appointed officials had gifts of the Spirit. But there's always the possibility that Jesus is referring to just anybody, which would mean the powers they had were fake, or demonic. But there's also the story of Sceva, the Jewish priest, who didn't have the miraculous powers of the Spirit (Acts 19:13-16). The point is, you can't just make hasty conclusions about the passage before considering the many questions the passage itself brings up. But the main take away that is clear is that those who do not live Christ's commands will not be saved when he comes back. Osas causes people to miss the important point of the passage and focus on the non-issue of whether or not they were ever real believers to begin with. You don't hear Osasers talking about that too much. That's a works gospel to them. Not all of them, of course, but the vast majority of them.

<<<He was probably talking about the Pharisees and the Scribes who listened to Jesus' teachings in the streets.>>>

Nope. They never would have been them. Read Mt.7:22.

<<<The point is, you can't just make hasty conclusions about the passage before considering the many questions the passage itself brings up. >>>

No hasty conclusions made.

Tong
R3306

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
As for me, such is plain and clear, He never knew them, that is, He had never a personal relationship with them.

That's what I'm saying! 'Never knew you' doesn't have to mean he never had any kind of relationship with them. I think it could mean that he did not have an intimate, personal relationship with them, which ultimately deteriorated into him having no relationship with them and thus no life of obedience. And so they will be condemned at his coming.

If “I never knew you” mean to you that He knew them at one time, and never does not mean never, what can I say.

Tong
R3307

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If “I never knew you” mean to you that He knew them at one time, and never does not mean never, what can I say.

Tong
R3307

You're not listening.

The implication could be, based on the whole counsel of scripture, that 'I never knew you intimately'. If he had, they would not be lawless, and, (hold onto your hat) may not have fallen away. Yeah, I know, crazy, right?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
By the way, can you tell us what you mean by Jesus knowing people but not intimately?

They're babies in their salvation. Using another analogy, they are saved but they have yet to bear the fruit of a 'knowing' relationship. Like when a woman eventually comes into a 'knowing' relationship with her husband and bears the fruit of that relationship—fruit she would otherwise not have borne before being in that level of intimacy in the relationship. As an example, the Galatians were known by God in salvation, but they did not know him (Galatians 4:9), so we know that 'knowing' can mean more than just you and God knowing each other in salvation itself.

So you are saying then that Christ know not the babes in Christ intimately? And that they could be numbered among those referred to by Jesus in Mt.7:23? Well,....there goes the babes in Christ. Of course I have to disagree.

Tong
R3308

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So there it is. You are actually injecting a qualification in the “know” there which is not there in the passage. That’s the problem, apparently.

Remember, I said we have to discern the passage in the context of all scripture. You will see that most, if not all, false doctrine is false because it did not take the whole counsel of scripture into consideration and instead un-rightly divided out a verse or two from scripture to establish that false doctrine.

And yes I do not forget. And you saying that means I did.

As I pointed out, scriptures said Jesus never knew them. Period.

Tong
R3309